I noticed that with my particular group there are an awful lot of attempts to board vessels to capture them and either sell them for a bump to PF or refit them to add to the "Flotilla". Do your groups have a similar trend? What are some of the ways my GM could discourage us from attempting to board so often?

Naval history is full of boarding actions and the lure of prize ships was ever on the mind of any captain and his crew.

That said, fools often rush in where demons fear to tread... By that I mean to say that given that everyone wants to board & capture ships, captains and ship owners make plans against these actions. Many a rash 'cutting out' action may be undone by a hidden cannon placed on shore waiting for some privateer to risk taking the 'lame duck' (or a cannon on a nearby hidden asteroid emplacement) and a boarding action means that your ship is open to a counter boarding action!! Some things to discourage boarding actions may be damage to the vessel making boarding dangerous, convoys of protective ships, anti-boarding teams (maybe they have their own murder servitors or worse!), self destruct, etc... in fact the ship may be pretending to be dmanaged to encourage the player's ship to board them!!! Hope that helps

I handled capture of ships as follows:

1)Most pirate ships have prior owners. If you kill the pirates and take the ship as your own you are just another pirate under the Imperium's eyes.

2)Pirate ships not built in the Imperium are often forbidden classes. Built by Rogue Forgeworlds that include heretical, and Xenos technology. These ships are attacked on sight by Naval vessels, and Admech ships.

3)If you recapture a vessel and return it to the Imperial authorities you can claim the ship under the rules of salvage. You get a percentage of the vessel's current worth.

4)Just because another Rogue Trader attacked you, and you captured his ship. You can't keep the ship legally. (Any more than I would be able to keep your stuff if you assaulted me today.) Strip it, Ransom it, Blown it up. Sure.

5)Changing a ship's origin is really hard. You need to refit the engine, strip off the maker marks all over the ship, and the like/ Tech priests generally will refuse to dishonor a ship in this way.

Thus if the PCs capture an pirate vessel they have only a few options:

A)Turn it over to the Imperium for what ever they can get from the prize or salvage court.

B)Keep the vessel in the Expanse and hope a Naval patrol doesn't ID the ship.

C)Strip the vessel for parts.

D)Selling it on the black market. Might very well be bought by pirates.

E)Completely refit the vessel replacing the drive, a number of other systems, alter the hull profile, and remove every plaque/maker mark/serial number. This is a task of months or years.

In A,C,D the PCs might at best get 10-20% of the ship's SP in profit factor. Plus there are possible bounties on the pirates...

I have to say, Dalnor, I disagree with a lot of your readings of the "law" of the Imperium on these points.

1)Most pirate ships have prior owners. If you kill the pirates and take the ship as your own you are just another pirate under the Imperium's eyes.

I'm sure that most ships have previous owners, so I agree with you on that point. However, the players are operating under Warrants of Trade issued by the High Lords of Terra, legal documents which permit them to act as if with the Voice of the Emperor when beyond the Imperium's boundaries . As such, legally, when in the Koronus expanse, a Rogue Trader is entitled to do whatever he wants. He can take whatever ships he wants, and use them however he chooses.

I accept however, that he may have problems returning to the Imperium with an Idolater class vessel in tow, but equally when in the Expanse he's perfectly entitled to use it however he wants.

2)Pirate ships not built in the Imperium are often forbidden classes. Built by Rogue Forgeworlds that include heretical, and Xenos technology. These ships are attacked on sight by Naval vessels, and Admech ships.

They will certainly run the risk of being attacked on sight when entering the Imperium, yes. But beyond the reach of the Imperium, this need not be the case. A former Pirate vessel in the colours of a respected and powerful Roguer Trader would probably be warmly greeted by an Imperial Naval vessel when deep in the Expanse.

3)If you recapture a vessel and return it to the Imperial authorities you can claim the ship under the rules of salvage. You get a percentage of the vessel's current worth.

Yes, I believe that this is probably true. But only if the ship was properly registered with Imperial authorities. Returning with a pirate vessel that was, for example, created within the Eye of Terror, and expecting to be able to sell it at the nearest Ship-E-Mart will not end well...

4)Just because another Rogue Trader attacked you, and you captured his ship. You can't keep the ship legally. (Any more than I would be able to keep your stuff if you assaulted me today.) Strip it, Ransom it, Blown it up. Sure.

Within the Imperium, this is true. But my reading of the Warrant of Trade is that if two Rogue Traders with equal warrants go to war beyond the boundaries of the Imperium, then the winner is legally entitled to keep whatever spoils he obtains. Piracy is actually perfectly acceptable under the incredibly broad powers granted by the Warrant...subject to the morass of far more complex legal rights/obligations that spring up when you retrun to the Imperium.

So let's say RT Jeff boards and captures RT Pete's ship. Whilst in the Koronus expanse, Jeff is totally entitled to hang on to Pete's ship, paint it pink, use it to transport coal around, whatever he wants, subject only to the risk of Pete's revenge. However, if Jeff were to return to the Imperium with his new pink coal-hauler, Pete would be able to start nightmarishly complex claims in the Imperial civil courts to recover the vessel, or even to have him declared a pirate and executed on sight by the Navy or Arbites.

This legal flexibility to effectively do what the hell you want when beyond the boundaries of the Imperium and the complexity of the law when you return there is why some Rogue Traders never return to the Imperium at all.

5)Changing a ship's origin is really hard. You need to refit the engine, strip off the maker marks all over the ship, and the like/ Tech priests generally will refuse to dishonor a ship in this way.

Possibly true. But a Techpriest sworn to the service of a Rogue Trader who speaks with the voice of the Emperor would be legally obliged to do what the Rogue Trader orders him, under the wide powers of a Warrant of Trade. So if this cut and shut job were done in the Expanse, all involved would be well within their rights. Caveat Emptor to purchasers of vessels coming out of the Expanse!

Lightbringer said:

Obviously Xeno ships are going to be trouble but I'm not sure there are any Heretical designs. It's been noted in Battle Fleet gothic that the Chaos fleets were outdated Imperial Designs and many fleets still use these older ships so they can't be firing on them on sight.

Really, in a realistic space encounter you'll have identified the other ship as freind or foe long before you actually make a visual contact.

Of course if it actually was built in the Eye it might cost a hell of a lot for it to be cleaned and blessed and even then it would probably be rumored to be haunted.

I don't have my Battlefleet Gothic book to hand, but I seem to recall that one of the Chaos Escorts was a unique Chaos design, based upon plans stolen from the Imperium. Assuming this is widely known, a vessel of that class would certainly be identified as a Chaotic vessel.

Of course, it's a big galaxy, and there are sure to be hundreds of classes of ship out there, so you're probably right, naval vessels wouldn't automatically shoot on sight without checking first.

But just to go back to the original poster's point, I think the tendency towards boarding actions is about right. It harks back nicely to the "golden age of sail" era, where every Naval Captain's preference was to capture the ship as intact as possible (even if it meant massacring the crew) because he could then get "prize money," a share of the value of the vessel. The Royal Navy formalised and encouraged this practice, which led ambitious, competent and piratical men like Cochrane to make vast fortunes by seizing dozens of enemy ships.

It is entirely logical for Rogue Traders to want to capture opposing vessels and use them for their own ends, I reckon!

There are many vessels that you really do not want to board. Especially those of the ruinous powers. Imagine boarding a ship that has a large cult of Khorne aboard or what about Nurgle? If your whole crew is inflicted with Nurgle Rot, you know that it would have been better to just blow the thing up.

Er...yes, that's also true. Let me qualify my earlier statement:

It is entirely logical for Rogue Traders to want to capture opposing NON-CHAOTIC HUMAN vessels and use them for their own ends, I reckon!

Back to the OP topic, that's the thing about Rogue Trader, its hard to find a plausible reason to stop this sort of thing from going on. In games like DH, your inquisitor just steps in and says "No.", in Rogue you more or less are the law so long as you are out in the expanse. However I have to agree that things like counter boarding, self destruct, and leaving a ship as bait are all good ways to curve the loot happy behavior.

These are some really great ideas, thanks for contributing guys.

Do you think the Imperium would feel threatened by a cartel of Rogue Traders that amassed too much power or too many ships? They are hardly Astartes, but that is one of the chief reasons they split up the legions right? What's to stop a Rogue Trader from accruing that much power? I imagine there must be a point where too many ships is too many ships.

How many ships is that for your group? Do you allow NPC-controlled ships, or is one per character the natural limit?

Well one way to restict the bording would be the navigator's, one i dont think every pirate ship is warp worthy, if its heretical does it have a working gellerfield or do we sacrifice to a big nasty demon to keep us safe, if it does have a gellerfield are there a coprative navigator on the ship or does jumps in to the void to hide what family he's form... A naviagator house with a rep for piratacy could be fatal for the house.

Besides that most pirate ship i think would be rather quick to fell if the other ship looked like it's caple of putting up a fight, pirates are looking for easy pickings. And if i was a pirate i would fill my ship with baraks and every thing else i could get my hands on to do bording as a more safe win for me the price ship and the cargo is where the money is and thats not a lot if the ship blows up, for a pirate i think the crew is the easy part to replace.

And the rogue trade gets a ship fine if you can find a way to take it away form him and he'll still feel he has won great

Way i can see he wants to set up a trade route that grants him money 1-3 profit factor that fin but he needs a cargo hauler for that the new ship can do the job. And about selling the ship we have to remember that profit factor ain't cash it profit flow so you sell a ship you and you'll get a lot of cash how much profit factor is that, sure you can use it maybe avoid some rolls to get the ship repaired or look at the GM and say i just sold a space ship i should be able to aford that powersword but unless you set the money to work it will not grant any PF.

Btw, while the RT is Emperor by law, the second he comes into Empirial space he is just a normal Nobleand obliged to laws and enforcement of them. That is where the wheels of the administratum turn around and around, taking into account any grievances and submitting those to Imperial law. In my campaign, the RT faces lawsuits at Port Wander that dispute his right to the Warrant of Trade. So far he has managed to keep on top of things but his enemies are relentless. So long as he remains in the Koronus expanse, he will be safe from the law. Except that he has relatives in the Empire that will suffer if he goes awol for to long.

You may be the voice of the Emperor out there, but here, you are nothing but a lawbreaker! You had no right to take that ship without clearance from the administratum. So either you return these to the care of the fleet or we will take action.

FoxPhoenix135 said:

In the Book (page 334 'overstepping the bounds') it does mention that an unannouced fleet turning up in Imperial space will be considered hostile...

I think the Navigator issue is a good one to consider - there are only so many of the 3 eyed, web fingered freaks that you can take along with you after all!!

Also - I forgot to suggest - if keeping the population and moral up on one ship wasn't hard enough. imagine the issues of a Fleet!

Ah the Time Honoured trope of "kill it and take its stuff".

If the players are always trying to Take The Loot of the ship, why not have THEM being ambushed by a larger fleet, loose everything and be "honourably" dumped in a life boat and left adrift.

Gives them plenty of reason to start from scratch to get back atleast 1 of their ships, could base a whole campeign on that sort of thing, alwasy chasing rumours of the cartel that stole their prize ship only to just catch the smaller ship or just more hearsay rumours as to where the fleet just translated to...

Giaus Novus Khan said:

Yes I would have thought crew would be the limiting factor. How thinly can you spread your crew, which of course leaves each of the vessels themselves vulnerable to boarding or mutiney. In navel history they would put a skeleton crew onboard to get it back to a freindly port, if they weren't heading straight back to port then it's may not be even possible and they would have to loot and scuttle it.

Lightbringer said:

Not really. All members of the Cult Mechanicus, to say nothing of the clergy, are first and foremost sworn, bound and loyal to MARS! No true servant of the Omnissiah would ever countenance the desecration of so mighty and sacred a machine spirit as a warship! The Rogue Trader is indeed the master of his ship and the ultimate law when outside the Imperium (at least so far as they can reach) but ordering his Techpriest complement to commit tech-heresy on such a grand scale will be met with recalcitrance at best. Press the issue with them and the Lord Captain might just have a slight problem of the ship's reactor core going into standby mode or something similar.... Sure, the life support still works, but you are dead in space... And you can FORGET about powering the auger arrays or lances! In extreme circumstances you might even face a mutiny. Problem here is if you manage to kill these mutineers then you are left without engineers, and now your REAL problem begins....

Inadvertently I'm going to come across as really argumentative and contrary on this thread - sorry!

All members of the Cult Mechanicus, to say nothing of the clergy, are first and foremost sworn, bound and loyal to MARS! No true servant of the Omnissiah would ever countenance the desecration of so mighty and sacred a machine spirit as a warship!

Well theoretically, yes. But Mechanicus Explorators who've spent decades or centuries in the service of a particular Rogue Trader dynasty tend to be more...flexible...in their loyalty to the Omnissiah. There's a situation in the Matthew Farrer book "Legacy" that sets this out very neatly:-

SPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
In the book, an Explorator Magus who had been in the service of a powerful Rogue Trader dynasty for centuries attempts to defraud another senior Magus by forging genetic data so as to suggest that his faction's preferred candidate to inherit the Warrant of Trade is in fact the offspring of the previous incumbent. The forgery is detected, resulting in a massive shootout inside a Forge-Temple.

ENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILERENDSPOILER

So while you're correct that Tech-Priests probably shouldn't go around doing cut and shut jobs on starships, I reckon it's actually quite common. Besides, a lot of the technical changes required to change a starship's identity are probably quite superficial: removing and replacing a few name plaques, changing a computerised ship ID transponder code... This isn't really tech heresy, it's breaking certain tedious and technical fleet shipping rules, which hardly amounts to spitting on your oath to Mars.

Of course, the beauty of the situation you describe, where a techpriest and Rogue Trader fall out over how to dispose of a captured vessel, is actually a wonderful opportunity for some characterful roleplaying, as the RT cynically tries to convince a suspicious Explorator that renaming, repainting and reselling a holy vessel made on Mars is not an insult to the great Omnissiah...

I'll also point out that Imperium-made ships have a Machine-Spirit. Ships are quasi-alive. I imagine that a ship that doesn't want to be boarded/captured could cause quite a few things to go wrong should it so desire.

Tack on the need to split your crew to man the new ship, including a navigator and pilot (greatly weakening both ships) and it becomes a dangerous decision.

For example, should the RT be outside the Empire and away from convenient resupply. If the take a ship, at least a quarter of his crew is needed to minimally man the new ship. That is for minimal operation. Now, without a new supply of crew nearby, these low crew levels (on both ships) will last for quite a while ... making both ships more susceptable to attacks and being boarded themselves.

Lightbringer said:

Oh, **** right it's probably quite common. Thing is, unless a ship is actively squawking its' transponder code, (something that a pirate ship is not likely to be doing, possibly to the extent of deliberately breaking the transponder, or even removing it entirely), the quickest way to find a ship's identity is to examine her EM emissions.

Every ship is different, even if only slightly, but those slight differences are going to alter the overall emissions signature. The biggest emitter is obviously the engines, and the size, shape and luminosity of the plasma exhaust from them will give away the ship's mass, probable level of engine damage and a good idea of her probable class, as well as identify her as a warship or a merchantman.
The next biggest emitter is the ship's active auspex arrays, the emissions of which can be matched to a model, and the configuration of the auspex arrays as a whole can be enough to provide a probable identity to anyone with a good enough database (say, a reasonably up-to-date copy of the Merchant Shipping List), especially when combined with her drive configuration.
In addition, every vox, electric motor and void generator aboard a ship will generate a recognisable EM flux, which will superpose and generally interfere with one another to create an unique signature, which has the entire multi-kilometre length of the ship's hull as an antenna (which, come to think of it, will affect the signal itself, simply thanks to the irregular shape of ship's hulls in 40k).

The most effective way to change a starship's identity is to change the engine, which would be a major job for a full-scale shipyard (assuming you're replacing it or altering the configuration of drive tubes; the latter would probably be considered an affront to the machine spirit), and the sort of stuff that could be done by the ship's crew at some convenient anchorage is likely to be closer to vandalism (and definitely an affront to the machine spirit).
Aside from that? Rip out and replace (with a different model) and/or re-site the ship's auspex and vox arrays. Less theologically controversial, easier to do (after all, you're far more likely to have spare radar emitters than an entire engine), but also less effective (after all, there are many reasons a ship might change their auspex configuration- battle damage, wear and tear, got funds for a better one, need quick cash and decided trading down was the best way, etc), as people are less likely to take that as definitive, precisely because ships have so many legitimate reasons to swap things out.
You could also order certain pieces of equipment inside kept switched off, or moved to a different location, but that's even less reliable.

And all that's before getting into visual range. Once you get close enough to physically see a ship, you can positively identify her not just by the paint job, and any visible repair scars, but by the placement and type of decoration on the hull. There's not really much that can be done about that, short of replacing all or significant parts of the hull (or fitting a false hull skin over all or part), but it does presuppose that you allow (or are allowed by) the other ship to get close enough.

That said, I love the idea of the RT and Explorator debating over how (or whether) the prize should be modified at all..

All that you say is true, Alesseo: a ship can certainly be identified by its engine signature, profile etc. But given that there are millions of ships in the Imperium, who is going to be capable of recording information on this and using it on a day to day basis in the Expanse?

I think it's analagous to car theft. Putting aside engine numbers & numberplates (the equivalent of transponder codes) on the basis that the car thief has cunningly altered them, you can distinguish between individual cars of the same make and model by a number of factors: tyre wear, engine efficiency, dents on the bumpers, missing hubcaps etc. But which motorist is going to be able to distinguish these factors when buying a new car? He doesn't have access to a central database which records all these little dings, scratches etc.

Who would KEEP such a record, anyway?

Extend this to 40k. Yes, with sufficient detective work, you MIGHT be able to track down that a relatively rare class of vessel came from a certain shipyard, that Naval records show the only other three vessels were destoyed 2,000 years ago, meaning that the fast talking ship salesman is probably trying to push a pirated lemon on you...but then consider if it's a relatively anonymous Vagabond Class Trader, the equivalent of the Ford Transit van. These things are almost certainly produced in their millions.

No one is going to bother recording every single little detail about these ships, and indeed it's unlikely that anyone's CAPABLE of recording that much data. If a ship has an overhaul every 100 years in different orbital facilities, while some might keep records, others won't, or they'll be lost over millenia when Forge Worlds are attacked by Orks, pirates etc.

Yes, every ship is unique. Yes, if you know EVERY detail about EVERY ship in the Calixis Sector and Koronus Expanse, you'll be able to identify a pirated one. But realistically no one is going to have this much data in one place in an easily accessible database.

All this is good stuff for Rogue Traders, though: it means there's bound to be a thriving black market in second hand/pirated ships on the fringes between Imperial Space and the Expanse. If a Rogue Trader has a kosher warrant of trade, he's well within his rights to buy pirated vessels, as long as he keeps them out of the Imperium and is careful to avoid the agents of any former owners.

Well the Adminitratum writes everything down of course, but getting that information out of their books, spread all over the Imperium is a daunting task I am sure. However, within a sector the information about vessels should be obtainable. Especially considering that the ships are sometimes thousands of years old. Every warship should have an extenisive ship recognition tome or tomes. Which obtain the information of all known vessels in that sector. Any unknown vessel is likely to be viewed with a lot of suspicion.