Another battle report of me vs. Church14, I’m bringing Latari with a whole new build style, he’s dusting off his waiqar to give me a break from uthuk ?

my list:

200/200

Maegan Cyndewin [36] 1x1
Fortunas Dice [6]
Martial Magic [3]
Total Unit Cost: 45

Aymhelin Scions [42] 2x2
Tempered Steel [3]
Raven Tabards [2]
Fertile Soil [5]
Total Unit Cost: 52

Deepwood Archers [30] 2x2
Dispatch Runner [7]
Rallying Starling [4]
Simultaneous Orders [2]
Total Unit Cost: 43

Leonx Riders [24] 1x3
Metered March [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Leonx Riders [24] 1x3
Metered March [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 30

the theory is use the scions as the melee magnet while using the cats as mobile flankers while Maegan gets in a turret position. The archers stay behind the shield scions and keep the scions double attacking and simultaneous orders with rallying starling keeps tempered steel and Fdice up and running.

Church's list:

199/200
Death Knights [55] 2x3
Shield of Margath [6]
Raven Tabards [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 67

Death Knights [24] 2x1
Dispatch Runner [7]
Total Unit Cost: 31

Ardus IxErebus [37] 1x1
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Ancient Technique [2]
Total Unit Cost: 44

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Total Unit Cost: 21

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Total Unit Cost: 21

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

I’ll let him fill in the strategy bits..

Setup and Deployment: Our OP kit came in today so played up in flames with reinforcements (the 3x5’5 in each corner with friendly deployments opposite corner).

Church chose second player and I put my sacred fount in easy reach of my near deployment. Church’s DK units were set to charge me on a flank, but I put my scions in the way. My cats went to the far deployment to jump to any part of the battle they were needed at. The objective tokens are the beginning of the fire from up in flames.

Turn 1: Maegan takes a quick run into the fount, and gains an inspiration due to the obstacles free rally. The waiqar archers trudge forward behind Ardus and the lancer. My scions move to block any chance of a turn charge on Maegan from the death knights, and the both end up running into each other without charging.

Church surprises me here by triggering an attack with his main death knight force via dispatch runner on the small DK unit. The attack puts 2 wounds on my scion block. My archers do a double shift to put distance between the approaching undead and to stay near the scions.

Meanwhile, the cats race across the far end of the field.

Turn 2:

Heavy blows are traded this round. Maegan and the scions manage to put up 5 wounds on the DK over the course of the turn. The death knights return 4 wounds on the scions. My cats miss a flank charge by a few mm.

The lancer blights maegan and moves in close. My archers score a wound on Ardus and church backs the second archers off to defend against the oncoming leonx.

Turn 3:

The death knights lose their second rank to the cats but the cats get hit back hard, as well as taking damage from shield of magarth. The death knights are both down to 1 tray after Maegan spikes damage everywhere off the lancer. The lancer charges Maegan but can’t chew thru her armor. Lots of attacks and I don’t quite remember what all killed what (a dispatch runner in both armies is confusing). I used my archers to rally and dispatch Maegan with the now engaged lancer and got a bit more damage spike.

Ardus and his archers continue to close in and my cats hunt down the lone archers.

Fires start to inflict some damage.

Turn 4: My scion charges the death knights from a corner, and whiffs, dying to magarth. The cats roll a single damage against the archers CT gets it up to 3.

Maegan knocks out the last death knight and brings the other down to one figure. Ardus rips thru the archers and approaches maegans sanctuary while his archers plink away at her.

Fire does a lot as well.

Turn 5: Maegan slaughters the last death knight with the help of green runes. Ardus charges her but only gets one wound thru. But he puts deaths grasp on her. Maegan is doomed. My cats kill the last archers and reform, hungry for more.

Turn 6:

I missed a picture somewhere, but the cats charge the archers and kill them, Ardus and Maegan exchange wounds.

Turn 7: the cats charge into the growing fire while Ardus finishes off Maegan.

Turn 8:

Ardus turns to meet the burning cats...

Ended with 24 points on the board.

I really enjoyed the up in flames objective, even though it hurt me more than church. It was a good game all the way to the last figure.

I love your army, Jukey. There are a lot of moving parts, but everybody has a clear role.

What are yours and @Church14 's thoughts on Shield of Margath on the Death Knights? I had given it some thought a while ago, but seeing it in action here caused me to realize that it can put in some work.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

What are yours and @Church14 's thoughts on Shield of Margath on the Death Knights? I had given it some thought a while ago, but seeing it in action here caused me to realize that it can put in some work.

It put 3-4 wounds up on the scions over the course of the game, I’d say it’s almost the best choice if your not running CI/duskblade and have Ardus to wield the power glove.

3 hours ago, Parakitor said:

What are yours and @Church14 's thoughts on Shield of Margath on the Death Knights? I had given it some thought a while ago, but seeing it in action here caused me to realize that it can put in some work.

Same thing here!

Though I (want to?) think that Reaping blade (love it!) might be more efficient in the 2x1. It "covers" the lack of rerolls and it is a smaller investment which is beneficial due to the lower staying power of a smaller unit (though I can see that the shield might have mental effect on the opponent, i.e reluctancy to target it, that actually increases the units' staying power and therefor covers up the higher cost).

7 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I love your army, Jukey. There are a lot of moving parts, but everybody has a clear role.

What are yours and @Church14 's thoughts on Shield of Margath on the Death Knights? I had given it some thought a while ago, but seeing it in action here caused me to realize that it can put in some work.

I have only tried SoM once and it was this game. I think it was responsible for 2 dead Leonx and 4 wounds to the scions.

It did make me finally realize/quantify that it works (in melee) when anything with equal or less armor hits you. So as long as a Might Hawthorne or Rune Golem isn’t what attacks me, it does damage. In a meta where Uthuk are everywhere, you could get away with it on a two armor unit. I don’t think this is all that profound, just new for me.

The second realization was that you have to have HP and/or excessive armor to back it up. It did that much work because I had 3 armor and 12 wounds for him to work through. What wasn’t quantified, was how often he did 8 damage and some bounced. So he spent a lot of extra effort on the Knights and SoM punished him every step. Again, I’m guessing a lot of players have already thought this, but it was new for me.

I switched to primarily Uthuk right after Death Knights came out so i hadn’t experimented with them and all the artifacts until now.

3 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Same thing here!

Though I (want to?) think that Reaping blade (love it!) might be more efficient in the 2x1. It "covers" the lack of rerolls and it is a smaller investment which is beneficial due to the lower staying power of a smaller unit (though I can see that the shield might have mental effect on the opponent, i.e reluctancy to target it, that actually increases the units' staying power and therefor covers up the higher cost).

Yes. Outside of mind games or a very MSU meta, I don’t think SoM would be worth it on a 2x1. Reaping Blade or Obcasium’s Gauntlet would be my first choice on the smaller Knight units. Maybe on a 2x2?

Overall, that 6 tray Knights was 67 points and felt like it should have been more around 75-80. It didn’t do a lot this game directly (SoM actually did more damage than my melee I think), but that was because Jukey poured the efforts of 4/5 units into it for 3 turns. Had I played more cautiously turn 1, I think I could have swing this match my way. I let my Knights get too close before the archers and Ardus could work too

Oh. As to Jukeys original comment about I could fill in the basic strategies for the list:

1) I wanted to try Shield it Margath and thought it would work on the 6 tray. Column tactics and Raven Tabards are two upgrades that get used against me a lot but I have never used. So I wanted to try Death Onights as a more traditional CavStar than I would normally run.

2) One of the podcasts, Init1 or Runecasters, had been spitballng about the 2x1 Death Knights as a carrier for Dispatch Runner in an Ardus list. I wanted to try it. It seems like a viable platform for it. I will be experimenting with this in the future.

3) Ardus with Ancient Technique and Obcasium’s Gauntlet is my go to for Ardus builds.

4) I’ve never tried tempered steel with my Reanimate Archers before. So I wanted to try it out and the points worked to run two sets of them. It wasn’t particularly effective, but that seemed to be as much how I played them as anything. I will be trying them again soon.

5) Carrion Lancers are just good utility units.

So the basic plan was Death Knights support Death Knights and advance aggressively when the window opens. The archers use a shift 2 and rally to prime the Tempered Steel. If I have several turns of maneuvering, I’ll keep dumping inspiration. Ardus and the Lancer operate as a screen or as flankers since the heaviest combat will most likely center around the CavStar

On 2018-04-17 at 2:44 PM, Church14 said:

Yes. Outside of mind games or a very MSU meta, I don’t think SoM would be worth it on a 2x1. Reaping Blade or Obcasium’s Gauntlet would be my first choice on the smaller Knight units. Maybe on a 2x2?

If running Ardus, I would probably go with the 2x2 just to try to justify his high cost by using his army building ability

I will definately try an Ardus' led 2x2 DK with SoM and Raven tabards!

57 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

If running Ardus, I would probably go with the 2x2 just to try to justify his high cost by using his army building ability

I will definately try an Ardus' led 2x2 DK with SoM and Raven tabards!

Ardus saved me 18 by letting me get that Dispatch Runner on the 2x1. Extra HP and damage output by paying for the second rank isn’t important for their use case in this specific army. That drops Ardus’ functional cost for me down to 26 points.

I might try Reaping blade on that 2x1 to give it some threat if needed

I suppose I could argue another 24 points saved getting tempered steel in 2x1 archers, but I’m not sure I’m happy with that configuration and will need to test it again.

@Church14 As you touch upon with your comment to your archers and tempered steel: I would argue that you actually only save points when you can make a build that is over the power curve for its cost, which of course is VERY subjective.

Still not in total disagreement as you specify "for their use case", but I factor in the lower staying power as an alternate cost in my "calculations".

Personally I'm currently not seeing Ardus giving any clear cut bargains (though I'm very interested in ideas), except for the heavy upgrade for the 3x2 Reanimates which is on par with Latari but better than any of the other factions. If he gave the opportunity to add any upgrade or if he reduced the costs of upgrades we would be talking real undeniable value

Edit:

I understand that I'm seemingly negative about the Waiqar faction, but I really like them, and wanting them to be stronger and understand them better is my weird way of showing passion

25 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

@Church14 As you touch upon with your comment to your archers and tempered steel: I would argue that you actually only save points when you can make a build that is over the power curve for its cost, which of course is VERY subjective.

Still not in total disagreement as you specify "for their use case", but I factor in the lower staying power as an alternate cost in my "calculations".

I don’t think I really got a bonus from Ardus on the archers. They didn’t deliver this game almost at all. They did a combined 4 damage between both units. So I need to revisit their value. My instinct is to work the points for Combat Ingenuity, but I’ll see.

Normally I do worry about the loss in HP when using Ardus to run smaller formations, but the 2 tray Knights for me works better smaller in this case. I personally find it easier to keep a 2 tray near and supporting a DeathStar unit than a 4 tray.

20 hours ago, Church14 said:

I don’t think I really got a bonus from Ardus on the archers. They didn’t deliver this game almost at all. They did a combined 4 damage between both units. So I need to revisit their value. My instinct is to work the points for Combat Ingenuity, but I’ll see.

I hate to propose Rank Discipline yet again, but that could be an option for your archers. It gives you the flexibility of rolling for blight or damage, depending on the situation. It will never put out as much blight as Combat Ingenuity, but it's also 2 points cheaper.

8 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I hate to propose Rank Discipline yet again, but that could be an option for your archers. It gives you the flexibility of rolling for blight or damage, depending on the situation. It will never put out as much blight as Combat Ingenuity, but it's also 2 points cheaper.

It absolutely is. For some reason Runewars has encouraged me to seek more attacks than higher quality attacks (opposite Armada experiences). Which is funny given the game mechanics for both games mostly favor the opposite.

At some point I’ll try Rank Discipline in my Archers. The automatic 1, nearly always 2, and sometimes 3 blight I get with Combat Ingenuity has been really good to me though. Tempered Steel was a more impulsive choice just to try something new. I haven’t tried using Reanimate Archers as damage dealers often. Usually on the 6 tray.

In the early days I often would run the 3x2 reanimate archers, never gave tempered steel much thought but looking at it now that may be a really good build. Lots of damage output.

4 hours ago, Jukey said:

In the early days I often would run the 3x2 reanimate archers, never gave tempered steel much thought but looking at it now that may be a really good build. Lots of damage output.

Yes indeed! I like to shift+rally into position for one or two Inspiration tokens, then fire away! Three rounds of Tempered Steel really pretty out since respectable damage. Your opponent will want to take it out fast. I usually run my 3x2 with Close Quarters Targeting, but dropping an extra 3 points for Combat Ingenuity is strong for versatility...so long as you can keep the enemy from engaging.

I was thinking CQT would be better, already spending surges on damage so why split what you’ll do with it.

churchs army is making me think about also running a triple slapping 4x3 with two 2x1 DKs with dispatch to run flank control. I don’t think I can fit the archers too though.

Either way there are new options I havnt explores with waiqar yet. I might have to break them out and play some games soon.