6 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Checked out the sub btw. It's nothing special. You can see worse in any movie, with sad and dramatic music no less.

it's a little more chilling when it's real (the WPD sub) imoh. Yea, watching a guy get shot in a movie, sure. watching some of that stuff in the thread... no thanks.

11 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

As if this were a train worth taking. . .

*diving into this thread like*

5 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

*diving into this thread like*

I wish steam trains were still a thing.... so much cooler looking and sounding than this diesel/electric stuff.

6 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

When did I ever mention any video games?

I'm saying that the Ghost is decidedly more real than something like Nym's Havoc.

2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I'm saying that the Ghost is decidedly more real than something like Nym's Havoc.

Well, yeah, it's not a binary scale. I never said that either.

57 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Well, yeah, it's not a binary scale. I never said that either.

Sure, but saying official material is still EU is just, especially wrong.

Just now, Captain Lackwit said:

Sure, but saying official material is still EU is just, especially wrong.

Seriously....

What is the difference between auxiliary material (books, comics, TV-shows, games) now, and auxiliary material 10 years ago?

The name.

When I called them EU, I tried to emphasize, that aside from the name, nothing changed, especially not people's attitudes towards the material. Why is this hard to understand?

The old EU was filled with contradictions and everything, because it had an almost 40 year old backlog. The new EU doesn't, and it isn't called that... but fundamentally, it is the same stuff. It's side stories aside from the Main Saga. Its... an expanded universe.

I said this already, but it is getting harder for me to accept you are pretending not to understand.

2 hours ago, Wiredin said:

I feel like I have successfully derailed this thread... human curiosity gets all of us eventually... the question is... do you keep going?

I’m not sure it was ever on the rails; but some kind of curiosity, perhaps human, perhaps something else. has kept it going ?

18 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Seriously....

What is the difference between auxiliary material (books, comics, TV-shows, games) now, and auxiliary material 10 years ago?

The name.

When I called them EU, I tried to emphasize, that aside from the name, nothing changed, especially not people's attitudes towards the material. Why is this hard to understand?

The old EU was filled with contradictions and everything, because it had an almost 40 year old backlog. The new EU doesn't, and it isn't called that... but fundamentally, it is the same stuff. It's side stories aside from the Main Saga. Its... an expanded universe.

I said this already, but it is getting harder for me to accept you are pretending not to understand.

the difference is: EU and "Legends" have become synonyms for the pre-disney non-theatrical (or clone wars cartoon) Star Wars among many people. By calling the new books, comics, novels, tv shows "EU" mixes it into a big pot.

EU/Legends are wonderful stories that are no longer officially part of the theatrical universe.

The new comics/tv/etc. material are wonderful stories that take place in the current theatrical universe.

1 minute ago, Wiredin said:

the difference is: EU and "Legends" have become synonyms for the pre-disney non-theatrical (or clone wars cartoon) Star Wars among many people. By calling the new books, comics, novels, tv shows "EU" mixes it into a big pot.

EU/Legends are wonderful stories that are no longer officially part of the theatrical universe.

The new comics/tv/etc. material are wonderful stories that take place in the current theatrical universe.

Oh god, please help me, for my strength is fading...

How many times do I have to explain a pretty basic concept. I did NOT call the current auxiliary material Legends... but they have the same function.

Maybe this example will help.

You have a main dish, let's say, a nice slice of steak.

And then you have the side dish, mashed potatoes and gravy

Then the new chef changes the menu, now steak is only served with steamed peas and baked potatoes.

It is not the same. It is called different... BUT it serves the same purpose, and it is still a god danged side dish!!!

You can argue about the terms, the discrepancies of which I admitted in my very first comment, but that does not change the facts.

Rebels is the potato. Being canon just means it is on the menu RIGHT NOW. But it doesn't make it any more meaty.

The Columbus Ohio area, when I left the scene, had five stores with active dedicated X-wing nights, now down to two. They wouldn't admit it but the attendance at one of them is now down about to half what it once was. The guys I know who were the most stubborn hold outs are starting to drift away finally admitting what I said over a year ago was right. I pop in from time to time here on the forums and the conversation is decidedly routine and dry with most topics being about looking for fixes and new content to be fixed themselves. For the newer players, there was once a time when play advice given on the forums was about maneuvering instead of what cards to play, and then subsequent discussion on why they are broken and you need to play them. Not to mention my Facebook feed flooding with lots of X-wing for sale. Signs are everywhere, if you know how to read them.

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Oh god, please help me, for my strength is fading...

How many times do I have to explain a pretty basic concept. I did NOT call the current auxiliary material Legends... but they have the same function.

Maybe this example will help.

You have a main dish, let's say, a nice slice of steak.

And then you have the side dish, mashed potatoes and gravy

Then the new chef changes the menu, now steak is only served with steamed peas and baked potatoes.

It is not the same. It is called different... BUT it serves the same purpose, and it is still a god danged side dish!!!

You can argue about the terms, the discrepancies of which I admitted in my very first comment, but that does not change the facts.

Rebels is the potato. Being canon just means it is on the menu RIGHT NOW. But it doesn't make it any more meaty.

May be a side dish, but it's a side dish you include in the Yelp review. Unlike Shadows of The Empire. I'm not pretending not to understand, but it really is different man.

17 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

May be a side dish, but it's a side dish you include in the Yelp review. Unlike Shadows of The Empire. I'm not pretending not to understand, but it really is different man.

I'm not so sure man... You bringing up Shadows of the Empire is pretty much the proof of that you are willingly misrepresenting my point to absurdity.

Also, give it a few years, and we will have our brave new "shadows of the empire" level stuff. I guarantee it.

On 4/16/2018 at 12:36 PM, LordBlades said:

Take a look at http://meta-wing.com/ships?. Out of top 10 ships only 2 (K-wing and Scurrg) did not appear on screen in a canon production (extend that to 3 if you want to discount the Auzituck's appearance in the pilot of Rebels).

To be fair, counting Rebels is a fool's errand, because it's a childrens' cartoon on the Disney channel most people don't watch or care about. Not that nobody cares. But there is a large demographic of players that couldn't care less about Rebels because of its silly and often kid-oriented content. I mean, for every thing you can claim might be "dramatic" or "adult-themed" or "dark" there are helicopter lightsabers and space whales and neon-girl boba fetts and bad jokes. So no not everyone recognizes stuff from Rebels as being iconic Star Wars ships. They're Star Wars ships, but they're no more meaningful to a lot of people than Quadjumpers and K-Wings.

Oh, and speaking of fool's errands, don't bother arguing with Lackwit. The dude is the king of pedantry and obstinacy. Don't worry. The smart people understand the point you're making and it's valid.

43 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

I'm not so sure man... You bringing up Shadows of the Empire is pretty much the proof of that you are willingly misrepresenting my point to absurdity.

Also, give it a few years, and we will have our brave new "shadows of the empire" level stuff. I guarantee it.

Absurdity? Fine. The Zahn trilogy as well. Just throwing out a bunch of big names, those are all EU.

41 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

To be fair, counting Rebels is a fool's errand, because it's a childrens' cartoon on the Disney channel most people don't watch or care about. Not that nobody cares. But there is a large demographic of players that couldn't care less about Rebels because of its silly and often kid-oriented content. I mean, for every thing you can claim might be "dramatic" or "adult-themed" or "dark" there are helicopter lightsabers and space whales and neon-girl boba fetts and bad jokes. So no not everyone recognizes stuff from Rebels as being iconic Star Wars ships. They're Star Wars ships, but they're no more meaningful to a lot of people than Quadjumpers and K-Wings.

Oh, and speaking of fool's errands, don't bother arguing with Lackwit. The dude is the king of pedantry and obstinacy. Don't worry. The smart people understand the point you're making and it's valid.

Ahah, oh wow.

On 4/16/2018 at 6:44 AM, clanofwolves said:

(Some Gungan poo-doo post)

I'm sorry are you going to world to participate in?

No, then who cares

Yes, then learn to adapt.

*stupid double post on stupid post

9 hours ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

To be fair, counting Rebels is a fool's errand, because it's a childrens' cartoon on the Disney channel most people don't watch or care about. Not that nobody cares. But there is a large demographic of players that couldn't care less about Rebels because of its silly and often kid-oriented content. I mean, for every thing you can claim might be "dramatic" or "adult-themed" or "dark" there are helicopter lightsabers and space whales and neon-girl boba fetts and bad jokes. So no not everyone recognizes stuff from Rebels as being iconic Star Wars ships. They're Star Wars ships, but they're no more meaningful to a lot of people than Quadjumpers and K-Wings.

Oh, and speaking of fool's errands, don't bother arguing with Lackwit. The dude is the king of pedantry and obstinacy. Don't worry. The smart people understand the point you're making and it's valid.

I’m not going to address the ad hominem attack, but vis a vis rebels: you don’t like rebels. Got it. I, however, have the opposite experience, and the majority of players I know love it. Sure, from an adult perspective it’s not exactly a high concept art piece. It absolutely has cheesy moments. Would I love a live action, “more grown up” Star Wars show? Absolutely, especially after Lost in Space has shown how drop dead gorgeous a sci-fi television show can be.

However, Rebels is not designed for us, and including the ships from Rebels is not meant to please us or get us into the Star Wars vibe (although for many of us, it does).

Imagine, if you will, someone who started watching rebels as a kid, or someone who watched clone wars as a kid and then rebels later on even though it was “too young” for them. Imagine that person LOVED Rebels. Now imagine that person sees the Ghost expansion and realizes there is this whole, expansive game involving dogfights, and they can fly the ghost and relive their favorite moments from the Star Wars THEY GREW UP WITH. To them, a ship that was practically a character in and of itself for 4 seasons of television is a heck of a lot more meaningful than a ship that showed up once in Force Awakens just to get blown up to get the characters on the Falcon. Ultimately, it can be the gateway to the game, and that is an amazing thing.

Thats a big part of why all of us are here, and neither you nor anyone else short of (maybe) the folks at Lucasfilm has any right to declare what “is” Star Wars for anyone except you.

So cut it out. You don’t need to cloak your personal opinion in authority for it to have validity. It’s your opinion and you are allowed to have it, just like everyone who loves Rebels and finds those ships to be very much Star Wars are entitled to their opinion.

If FFG only catered to OT purists dedicated to some pure vision of Star Wars, the game WOULD die. A lack of ships and a lack of players would see to that very quickly.

Edit: just clarifying that I don’t think the Ghost (especially with Fenn) is necessarily balanced, but I sure as heck don’t object to it’s existence in the game.

5 hours ago, Marinealver said:

I'm sorry are you going to world to participate in? No, then who cares Yes, then learn to adapt.

If we were in the same spot, I would have bought you a pint if I thought it might alleviate your closing haste; or perhaps a nice tea, depending on the timezone and earth-spin. You can attempt the whole, "shut up and deal with it" thing like the angry old crotch who hates it when kids run on across his lawn, but that's counter to the spirit of what forums were designed for; they're for thoughts, analysis, discourse, conversation, humor, etc. Believe it or no, there are valid points being discussed here along with those mentioned, trying to silence them or me is anti-community.... and pointless, especially if you knew me.

Live and let live... and, please... really, grab a pint... or two.

As someone who did not watch Rebels, I have to say, I certainly do not mind Rebels content being in the game. Not one bit. The more options, the merrier!

What does bother me a little is that the four or five ships that dominate tables are all things I do not recognize at all.

There has to be a middle ground, right? I know there are other viable ships out there; Poe is a solid option, and the Falcon has two pilots that you can make viable if you try hard enough, and you can even field a competitive Imperial squad if you include Quickdraw in it. And I do like that there's more viable ships; when I first started getting into X-wing (early this year) it was really just Nym/Miranda and a handful of other ships that would invariably lose to Nym/Miranda, and right now the meta does feel much more open in the sense that four or five lists are S-tier instead of just one. But even in this much more open meta, with several more viable options, I still don't recognize the ships in about 90% of the lists I see.

I have a lot of hope, though, that the upcoming X-wing fix will bring us back a truly competitive Wedge, maybe even one or two other pilots, and hopefully the occasional generic X-wing list filler, and that the Reaper (and its upgrades) can provide a boost to Imperial lists. All in all, I don't think the game is in a bad spot at all, and it's certainly in a much better place now than it was back in January. But if I had my druthers, we'd see more of those beautiful iconic OT ships seeing table time at the competitive level!

Completely agree.. my problem is that I hardly ever see ships that I truly KNOW. Sure you can fly something like a B-wing but why if you will just get annihilated by a bomb slinging, harpoon shooting tlt shooting scurgg.

You guys get it.

I think critical statements or even rage at the OP in our beautiful game isn't simply derived by those who want to win at all costs but have a hard time getting over those crazy power-card squads hump. I believe that the complaints --lets just call them for simplicity-- derive from the fact that there are some statistically clear mechanics and components that create unalterable imbalance; powers that effectively relegates most all other fantastic parts of the game (ie ships) as utterly pointless. Exacerbating this obvious issue is the fact that the classic, iconic ships suffer the most under the yoke of these unbridled powers; T-65 X-Wings being the poster boy of ships left behind. The irony is delicious as they are featured in the games very name and they, along with TIE Fighters are the bulwark of the graphics and enticing motto.

It's not that OP items need to be reigned in to purely assist unused Star Wars original trilogy ships; to allow them to gain at least some competitive footing, but to allow --as possible-- all ships to be at the very least field-able, not laugh-able. If this is impossible, so be it, but the designers should at least be attempting to use all methods possible at every critical moment to attempt this feat. Silence is not a strategy, least not one I have ever had employed to a positive outcome. Having iconic ships unplayable while lesser-known (by the super-casual SW fan, no offense to super fans, or kids that cut their teeth on Rebels) ships control the vast majority of mats is just bad for the health of game.

Discussing this issue and theorizing and testing fixes is what the forum is partially for.

Leaving the Jumpmaster's upgrades and pilot skills alone and simply giving it the Lambda dial fixed it without the slow death by a thousand cuts to its modifications... but they didn't listen to me. (insert laugh here)

We ALL want this game to be healthy and growing. Yay Star Wars!

7 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Leaving the Jumpmaster's upgrades and pilot skills alone and simply giving it the Lambda dial...

This is my proposed fix for Wookies- they wouldn't be quite so EZ mode if they actually had a restrictive dial. Imagine if you saw a Wookie take a maneuver other than a white 2 turn! Also, with a Lambda dial their arc would actually make sense.

I seem to remember that when I first started X-wing you could within reason field any ship you like and have a reasonable chance on winning. That is gone now as only ships with huge combo chains are fielded.

1 hour ago, nexttwelveexits said:

As someone who did not watch Rebels, I have to say, I certainly do not mind Rebels content being in the game. Not one bit. The more options, the merrier!

What does bother me a little is that the four or five ships that dominate tables are all things I do not recognize at all.

There has to be a middle ground, right?

There is another middle ground, as well:

Rebels features the A-Wing, the Y-Wing, the B-Wing, the X-Wing, the TIE Fighter, the TAP, and the Sentinel-class Shuttle.

All of these ships could be reissued with Rebels-themed repaints and pilots* (and even a Rebels themed remold in the case of the Y-Wing) putting Rebels-based material in the game for those who care and iconic ships for those who don't on the game table.

*A decent Ace is what gets a ship on the table more often than the chassis.