42 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

THANK YOU. People don’t remember how frustrating it was back in the early days as a Rebel player to see a TIE swarm across the board, watch in the first turn that they knew how to fly/maneuver a swarm, and just know you’ve already lost. I’d argue that it wasn’t until wave 5 and the outrider that we could reliable pop a TIE a turn and stand a chance at surviving the swarm.

The game has ALWAYS been about getting around the restrictions of the core mechanics rather than fitting within them. First it was put 8 arcs on the table so you will have a shot on something no matter what, then it was turrets, then it was phantoms and their perfect reposition, then it was dice mitigation, and so on and so on.

This mythical age of X-Wings and comparable ships locked in balanced dogfights and pure equity NEVER EXISTED.

Difference between playing a turret, and an 8 ship swarm:

You need to be good with an 8 ship swarm, or your list is literally useless.

When you are beaten by a swarm, you know that it wasn't the list that beat you, but the player.

I wish I could say that about Ghost+Fenn...

4 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I was trying to get you guys understand why some people still don't treat the Ghost on the same level as the TIE Fighter.

I don't think anyone was arguing that the Ghost was less recognizable than a TIE Fighter.

What we (or at least I) were arguing was whether the Ghost is in any way less recognizable than one of the ships that only briefly featured in a big screen movie (like the B-wing).

8 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I don't think anyone was arguing that the Ghost was less recognizable than a TIE Fighter.

What we (or at least I) were arguing was whether the Ghost is in any way less recognizable than one of the ships that only briefly featured in a big screen movie (like the B-wing).

Fair

1 hour ago, blairbunke said:

I know a lot of people don't think joust-offs are sexy, I do but I can understand where they're coming from. But there's no way you can tell me the turret wing meta we're under now is any more interesting than this.

And how many of those joust offs ended with 2-3 wounded ships desperately dogfighting through the rocks? Those were the days! This next generation, with there TLTs, Harpoons, and infinite bombs, just don't get it.

Get off my lawn!

2 hours ago, blairbunke said:

No one still uses bombs unless it's Miranda or Nym. Missiles and torps still are useless outside of harpoons. The 2nd most used missile is cruise and it's 75th in popularity out of all upgrades. Out of the top 17 lists on meta wing the only pilots to field harpoons are again Miranda and nym. All harpoons and bomblets/trajectory have served to do thus far is make those two pilots, who were already at the top of the food chain, even better. Watch this game and tell me if it looks like these guys are playing checkers

I know a lot of people don't think joust-offs are sexy, I do but I can understand where they're coming from. But there's no way you can tell me the turret wing meta we're under now is any more interesting than this.

This match is always a fun one that people bring up as an example of "omg GREAT X-Wing" where questionable decisions get made throughout the match and then Paul gets a 100% pure luck-based 1-shot on Howlrunner and goes from utterly screwed to in a great position.

Without the magic dicing there, this is just a pretty quick swarm-dusts-up-the-inefficient-rebels match.

Edit: I forgot it happens twice, with him one-shotting Dark Curse right off the bat as well. DAE miss the glory days of being locked into jousts where you're utterly at the mercy of dice luck?

http://meta-wing.com/ships?

If you look the top 10 we can conclude by this : 7/10 are ship from Disney

So If you want victory, play Disney ship!

I find it interesting that people equate long term players quitting the game with 'the game is bad or unhealthy'.

People move from hobby to hobby and game to game all the time. That someone has played x-wing for 5 years, and is now moving to something else could be as much to do with their own mentality and approach to hobby play as with the game itself. Trying to intellectualise why you are moving to a new game is fine, but then imposing your biased view on the community serves to dissuade new people from getting in to the game that you used to love.

Conflating declining numbers at x-wing night with a perceived reduction in quality of the product, when you attend x-wing night and spend the time complaining about the game is just weird.

It's nearly as weird as the mynocks complaining about the state of the meta while reinforcing and promoting the lists that meta is comprised of. ('Raptor attack is bad for the game and broken as all **** ... hey lets all fly it at the next big tournament, and all make top 16.... now lets podcast complaining that 8 of the top 16 were the same list!') If you want to change your local meta, or your regional meta and so improve the play experience for new and old players, as a community, you must actively take steps to play things that subvert the so called 'power lists' rather than just jumping on the latest bandwagon and yelling how broken it is while rolling around in your swag brag of acrylics.

1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

It's nearly as weird as the mynocks complaining about the state of the meta while reinforcing and promoting the lists that meta is comprised of. ('Raptor attack is bad for the game and broken as all **** ... hey lets all fly it at the next big tournament, and all make top 16.... now lets podcast complaining that 8 of the top 16 were the same list!')

Indeed. Meta-Wing is a circular argument, and has been for years. The podcasts analyse the supposed "top lists" in the game, reinforce them in the minds of the player base who go out and fly them, then the podcasts bleat about them "ruining the game". Their out-of-hand dismissal of non-meta lists as one offs and corner cases when someone actually flies them and does well doesn't help either.

I see these people getting on their high horses and claiming there's a problem with the game, and I say, sure...

...YOU'RE THE PROBLEM!

You want to see a "change" in your the "meta"? You want to see ships other than Ghost/Fenn on the top tables? Fine. Lead the way. Be the change you want to see in the game. Show your listeners and the player base in general what the other ships in the game can do. Because people who fly lists they enjoy to success deserve a ton of respect, certainly much more than those who simply piggyback on the numbers.

OK @FTS Gecko, it's my fault. Thanks for the insight.

I took a moment and talked with mates that have backed away from the game and told them, hey, "it might just be your fault, least that's a theory I read." But, the three all basically stated the same thing, 'no, the game has some issues and I'll wait till they get it straightened out, there are other games that I want to play.'

OK mates, what are the issues (here's the top --and really only-- four) they relayed:

1. Regen is "over the top on Miranda. Reign it in somehow."

2. "Coordinate shouldn't be so cheap at such a high PS. Coordinate was fine on the Bat. The bug is nuts."

3. Reinforce needs a downside, like "it should only be on a ship with an 80 degree locked arc that cannot fly well at least."

4. That Ghost should "melt more like like RAC butter than token-ed steel."

5. Turrets are nuts, especially TLT, maybe we make TLT use state "it can be the only secondary upgrade on the ship."

.....one mate a few beers in stated that, "maybe we have to have OP stuff, but it shouldn't all basically be in one faction; and if it has to be, the d**n things should somehow be unique so you can only have one OP thing in a squad."

So my OP list is close; I agree with them a bit more than with your meme, although it is funny. Thoughtful analysis does expose a few things that are beyond the power curve, that need a slight rework, that's all I'm saying. I think the facts and players really bear that fact out.

24 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

here's the top --and really only-- four...

5. Turrets are nuts, ...

err ...

Our local group has pretty much dissolved. We have 35 members in the group but only two of us actively playing now. Not sure completely why but I've heard comments about the lack of competitive Original Trilogy ships. For me, that does take away from the excitement.

The two of us were in our local game store playing Saturday afternoon. He had a Scum list and I was running a Gunboat, Defender and Striker. We had someone walk up, check out the table and ask what we were playing. There were no recognizable Star Wars ships to the average person.

4 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

err ...

TLT performs both point 4 and 5, as it attacks twice

36 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

err ...

...glad you caught that, I've had my share of tea this AM and I feel on-point.

32 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

TLT performs both point 4 and 5, as it attacks twice

...quick wit you have sir, appreciated.

18 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It is about as EU as the Clone Wars was, which was considered EU.

I feel like you guys glossed over some terms I was using. I admitted that you are technically right, but that doesn't mean most people agree with that assessment.

And... you know... 2 seconds of screen time is ain't a lot. I wouldn't blame someone who missed them in R1... You pretty much had to look for it.

You can keep saying that "BUT IT IS CONSIDERED A PRIMARY SOURCE", and I agree. By Disney. But what most people consider the primary sources, are the feature films.

Rebels gets ignored, because it is a mediocre children's show, with low grade animation, and bad writing with no real possibility of danger, that sets up the villains to be even less capable than they were in the OT, or even TLJ.

It might be canon, but many people understandably don't care for it. And you know... I didn't mention how it wasn't canon. I said it isn't recognizeable for many, and you guys should be able to understand their side as well.

The B-Wing fits the 2 seconds of screen time definition. In fact, I daresay the only reason we (as in, the overall community) are attached to the B-Wing is the 3+ decades of board/roleplaying/computer games featuring them.

15 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

1. Google the word: Extensively.

2. Most people who complain about these issues. This is not my opinion, I'm fine with ships from the show. I like the TAP especially. In fact I want more. I was trying to get you guys understand why some people still don't treat the Ghost on the same level as the TIE Fighter.

3. There actually quite a few snippets of space battles with A-Wings. Look again. The ghost was featured as clutter in a scene with many ships. The A-Wings destroyed the Executor. At least they had 1 important moment in a major movie.

4. I mean... What are you questioning in that point? Is rebels a children's show? Yes. Is the animation cheap quality? Yes. Were the characters in believable danger? No, even when facing Palpatine or Darth Vader, they escaped with no scratches. In 4 seasons of crazy shenanigans, 1 main character died, and the same person was "seriously" injured once. Are the villains incapable? Yes. How many star destroyers were blown up by 1 group of rebels? Too many.
Is this bad writing? Yes.
There are actually guidelines and rules of storytelling, and rebels objectively fails many of these. That makes it bad writing.

5. The many people who don't watch Rebels for the aforementioned reasons. Or are you saying that everyone (or even a majority) of X-Wing players are following up on a children's TV show. I'm talking about those who claim they don't recognize the ships. You can meet them a lot. There are many casual SW fans, who have no idea this show exists.
Just because they have more screen time, it doesn't mean that more people saw them. I'd be pretty impressed if the number of people who watched rebels is even remotely close to the number of people who have seen the OT. The difference between those two numbers makes up the "many people".

1. "In a way that covers or affects a large area; to a large or detailed degree."
2. Please define "most people."
3. A-Wings have only about triple the screen time of the Ghost, feature film-wise. Neither meets the google definition of extensively.
4. Children's TV show: Yes, no argument there. Cheap Animation: Your statement is subjective, not fact. Were the characters in believable danger: Hardly any less than the original trilogy main characters. Are the villains incapable: Have you actually watched the original trilogy villains? How many star destroyers were blown up by 1 group of rebels: Hyperspacing the only real star destroyers away doesn't count as "destroying" and the ships those rebels did manage to destroy are not star destroyers; such is even stated by the characters in the show when one inexperienced rebel claims his kill of a wedge-shaped picket-ship is a star destroyer.
5. This is the best case where you define "many people." People that have seen the Original Trilogy that do not watch Rebels is "many people." But with all the additional qualifiers (Original Trilogy fans who are X-Wing Players, who do not watch Rebels...etc.) You can boil your point down to X-Wing players that do not watch Rebels. Because I seriously doubt that people are playing X-wing that have never seen the Original trilogy at all. A Venn Diagram of X-Wing players and Original Trilogy watchers would be almost completely contained in the latter. I'm willing to bet that most X-Wing players (I have not made a study or poll) who encounter an unfamiliar ship will ask about it or research it themselves. "Oh, that ship is from SW Galaxies/Rebels/some comic book. I guess that's why I never heard of it before."

15 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Again... It is not my agenda, or my opinion. I was explaining why people keep saying this.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I'm mad about the rebels ships. Stop arguing with this image of me that you created, and argue with the points I make.

What people? I'm not sure what your argument is, because your point is not clear. Which is why it's easy to draw the conclusion that you don't like Rebels, or the ships therein, or anything that isn't in a film (particularly the original trilogy.)

Has there ever been a time when everyone was happy?

I'd be willing to put money on 'no'.

Are things worse than they have been in the past?

I've played against Ghost/Fenn twice. Lost both. But I don't think it's unbeatable.

Then again, my local meta is weird as heck. We love a bit of 'that looks cool I'll try that'. Sure that means we can get absolutely shanked at tournaments, and that's a bit demoralising. But we're still here.

30 minutes ago, SDCC said:

Has there ever been a time when everyone was happy?

I'd be willing to put money on 'no'.

Are things worse than they have been in the past?

I've played against Ghost/Fenn twice. Lost both. But I don't think it's unbeatable.

Then again, my local meta is weird as heck. We love a bit of 'that looks cool I'll try that'. Sure that means we can get absolutely shanked at tournaments, and that's a bit demoralising. But we're still here.

People are unwilling to think around a problem. There is solutions; you just had to engage brain and think.

Also; just practice bad matchups; I actively look for the hard games; because guess what buttercup; you learn more from a good stomping, then a lovely cuddle.

Just now, the1hodgy said:

I actively look for the hard games; because guess what buttercup; you learn more from a good stomping, then a lovely cuddle.

I'm not sure a truer word has been spoken on these forums.

On 4/16/2018 at 10:10 AM, FatherTurin said:

Citations please.

Surveys with an acceptable sample size and sound methodology will be sufficient.

Thanks.

well youre obviously trying to derail discussion here, but i'll bite.

I lived near Christiansburg Va until recently. we had 7 stores which sold x-wing miniatures (3 of which did x-wing nights) within a reasonable driving distance in 2015. by middle of 2016 that number had dropped to 2 retailers, only 1 had an x-wing night. they stopped x-wing night altogether before i moved last year, owner said people didnt like it anymore and were moving back to warhammer.

Most of my family and friends live where im from in Boston, and i got some of them into x-wing. even in a huge city, we can only find single dedicated x-wing night at any local spots that sell x-wing. most of the shops i asked said it wasnt as popular anymore, people moved on.

i now live in Pittsburgh, and while many stores sell x-wing, only 1 seems to host regular games. then theres the fact that Legions(apparently the biggest miniatures game store outside california) does not have an x-wing night. people occasionally play, but i brought my ships over on a saturday, and the most i got was "oh yeah that game was fun awhile ago". like im in a literal subterrain den of miniatures nerds and people are telling me the game peaked.

if there are thriving play groups where you are im happy for you, but there are not in most cities.

i play with friends a fair bit, but the only organized play i see is tournaments. 3 years ago this game was on fire. that speaks volumes

7 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Most of my family and friends live where im from in Boston, and i got some of them into x-wing. even in a huge city, we can only find single dedicated x-wing night at any local spots that sell x-wing. most of the shops i asked said it wasnt as popular anymore, people moved on.

Okay, this is just false. There are tons of X-Wing nights at LGS that sell X-Wing in the Greater Boston Area. Just from what I directly know of there are weekly store tournaments I can find on Mon/Tue/Thu/Sat, and I'm sure there are casual nights available on other days of the week. Do they have transportation limitations or something?

13 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

"Star Wars Stories" is so vague it borders on meaningless

If we're talking about "wow" moments on the table that are positive and fresh, then more parts absolutely does not always correlate to more "stories"

Nym has like ten upgrade cards on him. This used to translate into "move, trajectory, you're bombed". Riveting ****, especially given the opponent couldn't counterplay at all

You want quality, not quantity. Quality gives variety, ability for player decision to impact the game and for "stories" to unfold from these decisions

****, it's Writing 101: Less Is More

Now if we're talking actual narratives, there's the star wars rpg. This is a miniatures game and it will attract people for the gameplay either in addition to or regardless of the brand

Or it could be Architecture 101: Less is Less. Mies van der Rohe was the cat's meow for a long time, until people got bored of looking at 20-story rusty-brown boxes that made every city look like every other city.

Since you used the RPG analogy, XWM is exactly like a dungeon crawl: make you character (list), kick in the door and kill the monster (100/6); take the loot (swag).

There is no overarching theme (campaign) and no sense that one battle affects the next (GUAL).

Granted, there is a difference between full narrative (actual roleplaying) and storyline (interconnected adventures that lead to kill the arch-lich), but XWM could at least have the latter better incorporated.

And sure, not everyone wants this, but many of us do. I also think that this type of play would keep more people attracted to the game than "kick open another door deathmatch."

11 hours ago, blairbunke said:

I know a lot of people don't think joust-offs are sexy, I do but I can understand where they're coming from. But there's no way you can tell me the turret wing meta we're under now is any more interesting than this.

It does at least look like a mini Star Wars battle. Still, not Epic.

9 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

DAE miss the glory days of being locked into jousts where you're utterly at the mercy of dice luck?

Ah, I can here the screams of "there's no skill involved" already.

2 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Okay, this is just false. There are tons of X-Wing nights at LGS that sell X-Wing in the Greater Boston Area. Just from what I directly know of there are weekly store tournaments I can find on Mon/Tue/Thu/Sat, and I'm sure there are casual nights available on other days of the week. Do they have transportation limitations or something?

name them.

The only one we've found is tuesday nights at Pandemonium in Central square.

unless they started up in the last year(since we gave up looking), the nearest other ones we could find were in Frammingham and Middleton

9 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

name them.

The only one we've found is tuesday nights at Pandemonium in Central square.

unless they started up in the last year(since we gave up looking), the nearest other ones we could find were in Frammingham and Middleton

Hi, I live here and attend X-Wing nights. You live where, again? Not here? What the heck, man.

Pandy is Monday nights, Saugus has one Tuesday, Malden on Thursdays. Norton and some other places south of the city have them throughout the week. They've all been running for a while.

Xwing has ebbed and flowed a bit more drastically in the last two years than it did before. BUT those claiming it's demise are doing so with inflated, small sample sizes and personal data on a micro scale. Those claiming it's healthier than ever are also lying to themselves.

Overall it's probably declined slightly but that is a natural tendency given the method and design of this product.

Most people feel they are forced to buy everything. Often buying a ship (or multiples of them) to get a card or two for other lists they intend to fly.

The truth is that the glass truly is half full. Or half empty. But it's certainly not completely full anymore. AND that was where Xwing was headed all along. Anyone who felt this game had a vast and long future was kidding themselves. It's not at it's end but it is certainly showing signs that it's not long for the gaming world. AND nothing could ever have been done to change that. That was the very nature of the way this game always was going to go given the way it was designed.

I think that FFG was looking for a way to have a massively popular game that made a ton of money. They succeeded.

Yet it appears that now they are looking to make a game that will stand the test of time (Legion).

Xwing was never meant to last a decade.

20 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Ah, I can here the screams of "there's no skill involved" already.

It's not that there isn't skill, it's that three statistically improbable one-shots occurred in that match that directly influenced the outcome in a major way. I don't personally find that exciting to watch, because very little of that particular came down to the decision making skills of the players. Getting lucky on a decision isn't the same thing as making a good decision.

My personal favorite lists to fly are all arc-locked and I do pretty okay.

7 minutes ago, Sephlar said:

Yet it appears that now they are looking to make a game that will stand the test of time (Legion).

Where do you get that sense from? Because most Legion games I've seen have been about absurdly stupid levels of dice luck and arguing about ambiguous or nonsensical cover rules. Not to mention I see no indication, given FFGs past track record, that it also won't be a hot pile of poorly thought out card combos and blatant power creep a few waves in.