Again, it's precisely a topic that I cover in my blogs about the first two ages of the X-Wing metagame.

Falcon could be immune to a single 3 red dice attack, but it couldn't repel multiple attacks and because it couldn't lock it's opponents out the super-defensive 3PO/R2 version of the Falcon wasn't actually that popular or successful and you saw Gunner/Luke far more often. So in theory it could but it was rarely seen and had obvious counters (bring cheap generic ships and shoot at it twice).

Palp-backed Soontir could be bulletproof to two or three attacks pretty easily, shutting out the 'just bring more generics' as a viable counter. The ability to repel a 3 dice attack wasn't new, but it was now being presented in a much more cost-effective, reliable and competitive form.

Between Wave 7 and Wave 8 the competitive game of X-Wing was completely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch, and it happened pretty much entirely because of two cards: TLT & Palp.

22 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Indeed, and it was in many ways worse since it didn't require a lumbering space cow somewhere elsewhere the board or being at R3/out of arc, it was all self contained in that one ship. Which was also an amazing high PS arc dodger with a turret...

also, and more importantly, a stupid points fortress

it was the literal, actual reason why half-points-for-large-ships exists as a rule

because there was nothing more fun than going to time and losing to a hyper-maneuverable, hands-free, super tough ship just because it was so points chunky

22 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Again, it's precisely a topic that I cover in my blogs about the first two ages of the X-Wing metagame.

Falcon could be immune to a single 3 red dice attack, but it couldn't repel multiple attacks and because it couldn't lock it's opponents out the super-defensive 3PO/R2 version of the Falcon wasn't actually that popular or successful and you saw Gunner/Luke far more often. So in theory it could but it was rarely seen and had obvious counters (bring cheap generic ships and shoot at it twice).

Palp-backed Soontir could be bulletproof to two or three attacks pretty easily, shutting out the 'just bring more generics' as a viable counter. The ability to repel a 3 dice attack wasn't new, but it was now being presented in a much more cost-effective, reliable and competitive form.

Between Wave 7 and Wave 8 the competitive game of X-Wing was completely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch, and it happened pretty much entirely because of two cards: TLT & Palp.

Sure, but we weren't talking about your blog (which I think was a good analysis, btw). I was simply pointing out to Lord of Blades that there was a combination a couple of waves before the Emperor that made a ship completely immune to a three dice attack. As for "rarely seen" that's kind of tough to pinpoint because the data collection at that time isn't very complete. I do know that after it won World's I certainly saw it more and had to account for it.

14 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

also, and more importantly, a stupid points fortress

it was the literal, actual reason why half-points-for-large-ships exists as a rule

because there was nothing more fun than going to time and losing to a hyper-maneuverable, hands-free, super tough ship just because it was so points chunky

At least we can --'cough, cough'-- thank --'cough, cough'-- FFG for the half point rule or the stinking Ghost would be OP plus+plus.

24 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Again, it's precisely a topic that I cover in my blogs about the first two ages of the X-Wing metagame.

Falcon could be immune to a single 3 red dice attack, but it couldn't repel multiple attacks and because it couldn't lock it's opponents out the super-defensive 3PO/R2 version of the Falcon wasn't actually that popular or successful and you saw Gunner/Luke far more often. So in theory it could but it was rarely seen and had obvious counters (bring cheap generic ships and shoot at it twice).

Palp-backed Soontir could be bulletproof to two or three attacks pretty easily, shutting out the 'just bring more generics' as a viable counter. The ability to repel a 3 dice attack wasn't new, but it was now being presented in a much more cost-effective, reliable and competitive form.

Between Wave 7 and Wave 8 the competitive game of X-Wing was completely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch, and it happened pretty much entirely because of two cards: TLT & Palp.

A palp backed soontir however was easily destroyed by 1 unlucky shot... Han isn't.

3 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

A palp backed soontir however was easily destroyed by 1 unlucky shot... Han isn't.

or conners

can't even land conners on Han because he never has to face you

20 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

A palp backed soontir however was easily destroyed by 1 unlucky shot... Han isn't.

It was possible if Soontir was tokenless but it had to be really a really lucky shot because palp was still backing it up. That was probably one of the more frustrating things about Soontir at that point because he could still live and escape if you had set up a nice play to block him.

D2 Han was created as a direct counter to Gunner(Luke) Han and you only took D2 Han if you suspected that your Meta was going Han Heavy.

2 hours ago, Shockwave said:

D2 Han was created as a direct counter to Gunner(Luke) Han and you only took D2 Han if you suspected that your Meta was going Han Heavy.

Agreed, as SOTL pointed out it was pretty bad against large numbers of ships as it's defensive tricks only work once each turn and it didn't have the offense to reliably PS kill things. But against another list with a low ship count it was brutal and it made gunner next to useless since it was very easy to ensure you took exactly one damage on that shot.

14 hours ago, SOTL said:

Between Wave 7 and Wave 8 the competitive game of X-Wing was completely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch, and it happened pretty much entirely because of two cards: TLT & Palp.

I would argue that Autothrusters was one of the biggest killers of generic jouster lists like swarms. There was a time when you could catch Soontir in lots of arcs and just attrition him down, but after ATs came out he could just barrel-roll to R3, turtle up, and ignore the firepower aimed at him. ATs were really the first reinforce mechanic to be added to the dogfight format.

20 hours ago, AlexW said:

It was possible if Soontir was tokenless but it had to be really a really lucky shot because palp was still backing it up. That was probably one of the more frustrating things about Soontir at that point because he could still live and escape if you had set up a nice play to block him.

Yeah, my experience was that Soontir + Palp meant there was little or no luck in play. You either raced down and killed palp, or set very deliberate traps with at least one shot that you accept will do nothing but eat the Palp result.

The odds of him naturally failing without that super deliberate effort was inconsequential and if you were relying on it, you would lose 9/10 games (probably more).

Still not as bad as tank Norra 1 v 1 against 99% of the game, but pretty frustrating to set up perfect kill trap, do everything you need to do and roll what you need to roll, then have them shrug and fly away.

8 hours ago, CRCL said:

I would argue that Autothrusters was one of the biggest killers of generic jouster lists like swarms. There was a time when you could catch Soontir in lots of arcs and just attrition him down, but after ATs came out he could just barrel-roll to R3, turtle up, and ignore the firepower aimed at him. ATs were really the first reinforce mechanic to be added to the dogfight format.

Please ignore my ignorance, but I cannot recall, and haven’t ingested enough tea to investigate, which came first, Turret-Wing (counter to Ace-Wing) or Autothruster-Wing (counter to Turret-Wing)? We’ve got some amazing Aces in the game now, but it seems around here, it’s still Turret-Wing that’s the top dog by far.

9 hours ago, CRCL said:

I would argue that Autothrusters was one of the biggest killers of generic jouster lists like swarms. There was a time when you could catch Soontir in lots of arcs and just attrition him down, but after ATs came out he could just barrel-roll to R3, turtle up, and ignore the firepower aimed at him. ATs were really the first reinforce mechanic to be added to the dogfight format.

Without AT however, aces are fish in a barrel for all the high PS turrets with great dials.

I mean, sure, AT is bad design, because it is a mandatory upgrade on most ships that have access to it... But that's only because turrets do not have any requirement for firing outside of their arc, making them pretty flippin efficient.

AT should only get removed (and get removed it should), if turrets are nerfed accordingly. Something like all turrets (or at least PWT-s) gaining the "Attack: Target-lock" requirement.

That way you know, the Arc-dodger could actually do the thing they should be doing, without getting completely shut down, regardless of their positioning.

There there is still the issue of Dash.

Yeah, AT-Soontir-Palp is a pretty insane combo. AT is a pretty crap upgrade (from a design perspective), but it is a bandage, and not the problem. However bad you think AT is, the game without it is much worse.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Please ignore my ignorance, but I cannot recall, and haven’t ingested enough tea to investigate, which came first, Turret-Wing (counter to Ace-Wing) or Autothruster-Wing (counter to Turret-Wing)? We’ve got some amazing Aces in the game now, but it seems around here, it’s still Turret-Wing that’s the top dog by far.

Autothrusters came out in Wave 6 with the StarViper expansion. Fat turrets were a big thing quite a bit before that.

As for why Turret Wing (tm) is top dog? Because turrets take 0 skill. Ability to not care about arcs is HUGE in this game, and while turrets are so potent (looking at you TLT), Aces will take a back seat.

54 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Autothrusters is a bandage, not the problem; however bad you think AT is, the game without it is much worse.

...slight edit I made; well penned and ‘tis the absolute truth!

49 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

As for why Turret-Wing is top dog? Because turrets take 0 skill.

Turrets do take some skill, I’d argue and personally attest, but being able to have that 360 Arc is very nice, it gives you a massive advantage.....their duty cycle is soooooooooo much better. No list without at least a turret can ever win worlds again with this blaring issue. When’s the last time one did?

23 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

...slight edit I made; well penned and ‘tis the absolute truth!

Turrets do take some skill, I’d argue and personally attest, but being able to have that 360 Arc is very nice, it gives you a massive advantage.....their duty cycle is soooooooooo much better. No list without at least a turret can ever win worlds again with this blaring issue. When’s the last time one did?

Well, wave 7 only had one TLT (the StressY just had a Twin Laser, because title) and faced off against a second place list which had NONE

further proof wave 7 was the best, and that gutting fat turrets was the best thing to ever happen to the game. Put a much larger emphasis on actual manueverability, positioning, planning ahead etc

That all changed when the scout nation attacked, but it was fun while it lasted

On 4/20/2018 at 12:12 PM, Shockwave said:

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Well, wave 7 only had one TLT (the StressY just had a Twin Laser, because title) and faced off against a second place list which had NONE

further proof wave 7 was the best, and that gutting fat turrets was the best thing to ever happen to the game. Put a much larger emphasis on actual manueverability, positioning, planning ahead etc

That all changed when the scout nation attacked, but it was fun while it lasted

It seems this is the thing the FFG designers should take to heart and do everything they can to get that fun back.

On 4/16/2018 at 2:44 PM, clanofwolves said:

**Are there players at the LGS X-Wing players leaving the game?

Yes, local games occurring less frequently and number has gone to less than half than that of a year ago. Also, ask @heychadwick as he can corroborate in his area too.....and I believe that the real issue now for the game is, when casual gamers and SW fans view our game being played, they DON"T RECOGNIZE IT. If you look for movie ships, they are sadly rare. Visual marketing is so very important but it is almost ignored by FFG.

*Are there any experienced gamers getting bored an uninspired with the game due to recent mechanics at the top tables?

Yes, the current game at the top seems to be quite different from the amazing space superiority Star Wars minatures game we started with.

Keep in mind one detail. The people that play at the local store or play competitively, represent less than 10% of the people who buy x-wing.

The sales didn't drop. The number of competitive players in some areas did.

Take in count another thing, today, you have a lot more tournament than you had 2 years ago. People disperse. Why take 100km to go to a store championship if in your local area you have 1 every two weeks at least.

There are old players leaving the game. There are new ones starting it. It's the same with every game.

People eventually get fed up or something in their live changes and they just can't spend the time or the money to keep playing x-wing. It's like that in every game.

On 4/16/2018 at 9:44 AM, clanofwolves said:

*Are there rules questions that are causing issues in the Tourney games? Yes

*Are there OP ships and mods that have bent the meta for an extended period? Yes ....hello TLT

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*Are there players at the LGS X-Wing players leaving the game?

Yes, local games occurring less frequently and number has gone to less than half than that of a year ago. Also, ask @heychadwick as he can corroborate in his area too.....and I believe that the real issue now for the game is, when casual gamers and SW fans view our game being played, they DON"T RECOGNIZE IT. If you look for movie ships, they are sadly rare. Visual marketing is so very important but it is almost ignored by FFG.

*Are there any experienced gamers getting bored an uninspired with the game due to recent mechanics at the top tables?

Yes, the current game at the top seems to be quite different from the amazing space superiority Star Wars minatures game we started with.

You are correct @JediSamurai, Ezra has slipped to 6th place, goodness, what is the X-Wing world coming too? The Mouse is happy though...

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