*Are there rules questions that are causing issues in the Tourney games? Yes

*Are there OP ships and mods that have bent the meta for an extended period? Yes ....hello TLT

2.
3.	Captain Nym
4.
5.	Quickdraw
6.	Fenn Rau

*Are there players at the LGS X-Wing players leaving the game?

Yes, local games occurring less frequently and number has gone to less than half than that of a year ago. Also, ask @heychadwick as he can corroborate in his area too.....and I believe that the real issue now for the game is, when casual gamers and SW fans view our game being played, they DON"T RECOGNIZE IT. If you look for movie ships, they are sadly rare. Visual marketing is so very important but it is almost ignored by FFG.

*Are there any experienced gamers getting bored an uninspired with the game due to recent mechanics at the top tables?

Yes, the current game at the top seems to be quite different from the amazing space superiority Star Wars minatures game we started with.

Citations please.

Surveys with an acceptable sample size and sound methodology will be sufficient.

Thanks.

5 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

Citations please.

Surveys with an acceptable sample size and sound methodology will be sufficient.

Thanks.

I have edited my post to add to the answer I assume you are questioning with a bit of detail and a corroboration of a storied X-Wing player and pod-caster to boot; hope that assists my diatribe against the designer's hesitation in assisting our beautiful game.

Well obviously the problem is haters as hate leads to suffering

Any I'm not fond if dramatization, though I feel your points are well noted and pretty dang indicative of problems the game still faces

A few more erratas would make the game much more varied and interesting overall, especially if FFG compiles them all in an easy accessible PDF ala "Balance of the Force" instead of rolling it into their **** faq

Look, I’m not saying there may not be issues at the highest levels of play, and I CERTAINLY am not saying that X-Wing is perfect.

I’m just saying that anecdotes are not evidence of systemic problems. They can be indicators that there may be an issue, but ultimately this should be better titled as “my perception is that high level competitive X-Wing has some issues that are impacting the play experience of competitors.”

I get that that’s a wordy title, but the rhetoric isn’t helpful. All you get are the people that agree with you harrumph along with you, and people that disagree with you resort to flaming.

I admit, my comment was at least 60% trolling, my bad for that. Do you want to have a discussion about this? Because I am not a competitive player at all, but I would love to get some insight into that world of X-Wing.

Edit: Here’s an example. It sucks that you and heychadwick have experienced a decline in casual players locally. Where are you? I’m in the NYC suburbs (Rockland County NY and North Jersey) and even though our local go-to place for X-Wig closed last year, there are 2 other stores close by with VERY healthy X-Wing, Armada and Legion communities, and talk of an X-Wing league restarting at a third store. So, it sucks for one or two local scenes to be depleting, but you don’t know what the future holds, or what is happening in other areas.

10 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

I get that that’s a wordy title, but the rhetoric isn’t helpful. All you get are the people that agree with you harrumph along with you, and people that disagree with you resort to flaming.

This forum really does resemble the Governor's office in Blazing Saddles at the moment.

9 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

This forum really does resemble the Governor's office in Blazing Saddles at the moment.

Thank you for getting exactly where I was going with that.

Well, it doesn't help that whenever anyone tries to get a constructive talk about the game's issues, people ultimately revert to their inner Princess Leia, and shout NERF HERDER at us.

There have been many... Many attempts at trying to initiate conversations about the state of the game... As frequently as we derail topics to talk about the problems, we experience the same as the conversation devolves into nothing but insults like "anybody who complains about anything is just salty about being a bad player" and so on and so on.

So I feel the criticism of the tone unfair. The forum was never a safe place for these types of talks. People even defended the Jumpmaster.

What tone do you expect from us after countless insults? Of course we have a bit of spite...

1 minute ago, FatherTurin said:

Thank you for getting exactly where I was going with that.

You've got to remember that these are just simple X-Wingers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.

2 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Well, it doesn't help that whenever anyone tries to get a constructive talk about the game's issues, people ultimately revert to their inner Princess Leia, and shout NERF HERDER at us.

There have been many... Many attempts at trying to initiate conversations about the state of the game... As frequently as we derail topics to talk about the problems, we experience the same as the conversation devolves into nothing but insults like "anybody who complains about anything is just salty about being a bad player" and so on and so on.

So I feel the criticism of the tone unfair. The forum was never a safe place for these types of talks. People even defended the Jumpmaster.

What tone do you expect from us after countless insults? Of course we have a bit of spite...

That’s fair. I know I personally try and be a positive influence when I can, but I definitely fall short a lot and let my snark out to play.

We all need to do better. Even though this is the internet, there’s no reason we can’t be decent to each other.

1 minute ago, FatherTurin said:

That’s fair. I know I personally try and be a positive influence when I can, but I definitely fall short a lot and let my snark out to play.

We all need to do better. Even though this is the internet, there’s no reason we can’t be decent to each other.

I know I can be annoying too, and frankly a bit of an @ss as well.

It's definitely an issue most of us needs to work on.

But you know... Dismissing anyone who has a problem, is not in any way less extreme than wanting to nerf everything.

BTW, @Brunas, @Tlfj200 and @catachanninja, your podcasts playing games other than X-Wing currently is the proper strategy, for with FFG remaining silent, the resulting salt krayted would be far greater than the planet could hold.

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Yes, the current game at the top seems to be quite different from the amazing space superiority Star Wars minatures game we started with.

To me it boils down to this. Some people are happy with the current game, some people are not.

If you are not happy, then it's a matter of falling back to the amazing game we started with. It's not that we can't play the game retroactively content-wise.

If this thread is turning into a sensible discussion, I'm happy to contribute why I feel that X-wing is in a pretty good position.

My own ability is middling to ok. Generally I get 4-2 in bigger tournaments, have a chance at winning small ones but am inconsistent probably because I don't get to practice enough.

My local scene mostly plays on Tuesdays, which I can rarely do. So, I have helped start and encourage people to play on Thursdays at a different store. We now have a regular group of 5 plus another 5 or so who turn up occasionally. There are about 60 regular players on Tuesdays at stores within 1 hour's travel who I know and meet up with regularly at events.

There are at least 10 stores close enough for me to play at. They tend to run a monthly event on a weekday evening plus a weekend one each - and also have the occasional extra tournament, themed usually. This is at least 20 events, but I only get permission to play in one each month.

As far as 'the meta' is concerned, I rarely see the same list twice. Almost all of my friends run a new list each event, as do I. In the 24 games I've played at regionals and the system open since February, I didn't play against the same thing twice - every game was different.

So, my experience is pretty much entirely positive: my local group is getting bigger and more enthusiastic; the players (whether they are top or not) in the UK are welcoming and friendly at all events; and I fly and fly against interesting and diverse lists.

Do certain things need balancing better? Yes.

Is the sky falling? No.

Hard to say if X-Wing is suffering or not, everyone is really only armed with anecdotal evidence either way. Really only FFG knows the truth of their sales figures.

I think, ultimately, the game is in a better place now than last year at the same time. There is definitely a more diverse set of lists being flown at top cuts, even if they are all Rebel- and that's a step in the right direction. I think the Reaper release is going to bring Imperials back into the limelight (Palp Aces is going to come roaring back, and Krennic Aces are going to be good too), so I'm not worried about Imps. I am worried about Scum. The JM5K nerf showed that it was really their only tier S ship, and Assaj is having a hard time holding the faction up. Scum definitely needs some love.

There is one thing I'm not happy about with the current 'Meta' lists. They have a high skill floor, and are not really 'skill expressive'. I have never, ever watched/seen a Lothal/Fenn list win a match and feel like it took skill. You basically just fly around trying not to land on obstacles, and then roll furious amounts of dice all while denying all of your opponents agency with easy to use abilities. I fell like Lothal/Fenn could be flown by a trained dog or monkey- and that's just not what I want to be top dog in the game. Same goes for Miranda and Lowrisk- both these ships are just retardedly easy to fly, super forgiving if you make mistakes, have no counterplay, and ultimately very boring to see on the table. Miranda especially is a bummer, because she's just this amazing unequaled point-fortress- and I really hate the fortress strategies that have become a regular part of the game. The Loopin' Chewie incident was a real eye-opener, and a really sad commentary on why we don't want/need regen point fortresses in the game AT ALL.

I'm hoping Duncan Howard shows us the true skill path by winning worlds with Palp Aces, but alas I think Rebels have this one in the bag.

34 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

Do certain things need balancing better? Yes.

Is the sky falling? No.

I think this sums it up. The game needs improvement, but we are getting better. I THINK.

I keep seeing this argument that the game is unrecognizable at the top meta, but that doesn't apply as broadly as people claim. You do know people have gotten into the game because of the inclusion of ships from Rebels, right? That some of us knew of the existence of the Jumpmaster before it came out? By that logic, the Gunboat is unrecognizable, and yet we had a large and diligent campaign to get it included.

As for your local woes, I am sorry to hear people are leaving. But there are other areas where X-Wing is growing. Just because a local group falls apart doesn't mean that it is happening everywhere.

Now, to be clear, I do not want to insinuate that there is no room for complaints or worry. The game does have areas that need careful attention. But that describes how the game has been from the beginning.

3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

"...the amazing space superiority Star Wars minatures game we started with."

I have been playing since right before wave 10 and in stores and at tournaments since wave 11. Locally in that time I have seen 2 stores start weekly X-Wing nights and attendance stay pretty steady a the one I go to. Monthly tournaments are averaging the same number of folks, and I have seen some players go, new ones start and previous players come back. Our local folks play a lot of the same stuff when prepping for a Regional and now worlds but that is expected here.

Can the game get more balanced? Sure. Is it in trouble? Not from what I see in my limited time playing.

I see this theme from people who started playing early in the life of X-Wing that the game in no way reflects how amazing a game it used to be. I have been struggling with this. I think the game is awesome now. the sheer variety of ships , armament, crew and other upgrades makes theory crafting the game as enjoyable to me as the flying. I love the different armament choices, and I think the variety is what makes it great currently.

From what I have seen and experienced when 2 evenly matched ships in ability and 2 evenly matched players get into pure dog fight mode it can get pretty boring and slow. When 2 players trying to kill each other maneuvering around firing and still be in the same game state 30 minutes later can be fun but unsatisfying. Tournament games when one player is ahead and then runs for 40 plus minutes are also frustrating.

I feel that I have not seen the amazing game of the past that players who played in the beginning lament about. I hear complaints most of the time they seem to be saying it isn't fair that the game mechanics changed so it is now easier for someone to win without having a flying skill the poster perceives they have.

Please if you have memories of how grand X-Wing used to be I am interested to understand why and what difference there is now besides TLT and bombs ruined it. What fundamentally was different what were the games like? Form the posts online I am lead to believe that it was awesome because Imperial aces ruled the day. I don't think that was the case or maybe it was it just comes across that way, and I really would like to understand it.

Personally I am going to start playing with my friend who started me into x-wing flying by wave with upgrades only offered at that wave to see if there is something I am missing.

We play 2-3 times per month now, one of those being the monthly FLGS tournament I TO. The other times are a single casual game between my son and I.

Attendance is bigger when we run alt formats. It's anecdotes instead of data, but I know it doesn't make me want to run standard tournaments.

The good news is that the FLGS finally got Rebel Bombers in! It only took 5 months to make the trek from Montreal to Ottawa (200km). Sadly, all the hype is gone and they're languishing on the shelves...

It's currently dead at my store, but mostly because everyone is into legion. I've been driving to CO Springs to play (about a 50 min drive). My FLGS may be having a tourney soon, but if not, I can go to another store. I've decided that I don't care about being uber competitive and I'm just going to fly ships that I like. I'll probably get shredded by some meta lists, or lose some close games (there are several players at my FLGS who routinely fly whatever the meta is). I like to play and there are enough non-meta players for me to get my fix.

what is the meta anyway? harpoons?

4 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Are there players at the LGS X-Wing players leaving the game?

Are there any experienced gamers getting bored an uninspired with the game due to recent mechanics at the top tables?

Locally, the game is doing well in my area. We have newcomers that are getting into the game, and while game night is not at its peak as I have seen over the 2+ years I have been playing, its not at its worst point. I have seen some of the old blood complaining about the direction the game has gone in and not showing up as much. New blood doesn't really know what it used to be like, so they are having fun. I am also blessed with a good local meta that tends to avoid NPE lists and upgrades and comes up with a lot of creative lists, rather than people practicing hardcore meta lists for an upcoming tournament.

Because I avoid top-level play, I am still having fun with the game, and not yet bored or uninspired, since the only thing that really matters to me is what my local guys are setting up across the table from me. I am however, concerned with the direction or health of the game as a whole, because if it goes off the rails at the regional/national/world level, it could spell trouble for what we are doing at the local level.

So, still having fun at my local store, but worried about the health of the game.

5 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

*Are there any experienced gamers getting bored an uninspired with the game due to recent mechanics at the top tables?

Yes, the current game at the top seems to be quite different from the amazing space superiority Star Wars minatures game we started with.

See this is your problem. Get off the competitive xwing train and suddenly the game becomes really fun again. Like really fun.

5 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

If you look for movie ships, they are sadly rare.

Not necessarily a counterpoint to the idea that x-wing has problems, but I find X wing to be pretty much at the most recognizable point in my entire history with the game (I joined in wave 6).

Take a look at http://meta-wing.com/ships?. Out of top 10 ships only 2 (K-wing and Scurrg) did not appear on screen in a canon production (extend that to 3 if you want to discount the Auzituck's appearance in the pilot of Rebels).

****, the most popular list nowadays is comprised exclusively of ships that featured heavily in the only TV series of the new canon (the Ghost and both Phantoms).

10 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Not necessarily a counterpoint to the idea that x-wing has problems, but I find X wing to be pretty much at the most recognizable point in my entire history with the game (I joined in wave 6).

Take a look at http://meta-wing.com/ships?. Out of top 10 ships only 2 (K-wing and Scurrg) did not appear on screen in a canon production (extend that to 3 if you want to discount the Auzituck's appearance in the pilot of Rebels).

****, the most popular list nowadays is comprised exclusively of ships that featured heavily in the only TV series of the new canon (the Ghost and both Phantoms).

Just because it is no longer called that, Rebels is still part of the EU.

It isn't part of the main saga. Its an addition. Its extra. It is literally what Expanded Universe stands for.

So, while technically it is named canon, rebels is not a primary source. When people say they have unrecognizable ships, they usually mean that they weren't featured in any of the movies extensively. But I think you know that.

I know I'm not very good. I've place no better than second to last at every tournament I've ever played in (5 of them?)

But the game is still mostly fun, barring the few shenanigans from the same pilots and upgrades so many people seem to agree are NPE.

2 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Just because it is no longer called that, Rebels is still part of the EU.

It isn't part of the main saga. Its an addition. Its extra. It is literally what Expanded Universe stands for.

So, while technically it is named canon, rebels is not a primary source. When people say they have unrecognizable ships, they usually mean that they weren't featured in any of the movies extensively. But I think you know that.

Technically they are a primary source as far as Disney is concerned. The tiers of canon went away with George Lucas. Now there;s just two possibilities: stuff either canon or isn't, and by the official word, Rebels is canon. IMO a ship like the Ghost (that featured heavily in 4 seasons of Star Wars TV series) is way more recognizable to fans than something that appeared for a single scene in a movie (like the Quadjumper or B/SF-17).

Aside from that though, my point was that, probably apart from the very early life of X-wing (when all we had were ships that featured heavily in the OT), the game is probably at it's most recognizable point. I can't recall a meta (wave 6 and beyond) where there's been more good ships that have featured significantly anywhere canon. Can you ?