6 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

The Cymoon I think is a big part of it. 6 reds with IF is murdering small ships on a reliable basis. Ask @geek19 about his Run DMC experiences. Previously a CR90 could weather a turn of long range front arc before scooting into the the side and keeping up that relentless TRC pressure. You can't do that to a Cymoon. You can try to avoid that front arc entirely, but that's not exactly easy and, more importantly, it costs you a turn of damage against a ship that's pretty tough. Combine that with EWS and squadrons, I think that's what's been killing MSU. Spike damage with large pools is where it's at right now. I don't want to claim certainty of the cause. All I have for that is my own experience using MSU in waves 6 and 7 and conjecture.

What I can prove, however, is that MSU is in serious trouble. Regionals data shows that fleets with 3+ small (non-flotilla) ships are near no-shows at the top of Regional events and are represented at the top well below their overall useage in the general population. Call it "user error" all you want @Geressen , but the data shows very much the opposite. That was consistent in both wave 6 and 7 Regionals. Maybe it will better post-FAQ. They should be able to rely on activation advantage more now that flotillas aren't padding for large ships as bad as they did, so maybe that will help. I don't have that answer. I try to stick to identify problems using the data, not solutions.

And before I'm asked yet again, here's the wave 7 data link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14kjCf7_-KjTjAqMyUrXayZI8u9oBlqDyMLbYAMeaMxk/edit?usp=drivesdk

You'll have to ask @Baltanok for wave 6. I will openly admit I'm relying on my own shoddy memory for that, so apologies in advance if I mischaracterized that data.

+1

I can only add my own experience but Cymoons have completely wiped out the small ships here.

Vader cymoon with IF and spinals can easily and reliably do 10 damage, thats enough to kill most small ships outright without rolling an accuracy

:/

I know its really killed MSU for me, and only having one rebel medium i feel forced into taking big ships with smalls being relegated to activations and objectives where possible.

22 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

The Cymoon I think is a big part of it. 6 reds with IF is murdering small ships on a reliable basis. Ask @geek19 about his Run DMC experiences. Previously a CR90 could weather a turn of long range front arc before scooting into the the side and keeping up that relentless TRC pressure. You can't do that to a Cymoon. You can try to avoid that front arc entirely, but that's not exactly easy and, more importantly, it costs you a turn of damage against a ship that's pretty tough. Combine that with EWS and squadrons, I think that's what's been killing MSU. Spike damage with large pools is where it's at right now. I don't want to claim certainty of the cause. All I have for that is my own experience using MSU in waves 6 and 7 and conjecture.

What I can prove, however, is that MSU is in serious trouble. Regionals data shows that fleets with 3+ small (non-flotilla) ships are near no-shows at the top of Regional events and are represented at the top well below their overall useage in the general population. Call it "user error" all you want @Geressen , but the data shows very much the opposite. That was consistent in both wave 6 and 7 Regionals. Maybe it will better post-FAQ. They should be able to rely on activation advantage more now that flotillas aren't padding for large ships as bad as they did, so maybe that will help. I don't have that answer. I try to stick to identify problems using the data, not solutions.

And before I'm asked yet again, here's the wave 7 data link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14kjCf7_-KjTjAqMyUrXayZI8u9oBlqDyMLbYAMeaMxk/edit?usp=drivesdk

You'll have to ask @Baltanok for wave 6. I will openly admit I'm relying on my own shoddy memory for that, so apologies in advance if I mischaracterized that data.

Thanks @Truthiness

I try to say the same thing but get shouted down and told the data means nothing.

I definitely found that small ships non flotilla we’re not holding their own against large ships and mass squadron pre faq

31 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Call it "user error" all you want @Geressen , but the data shows very much the opposite. That was consistent in both wave 6 and 7 Regionals. Maybe it will better post-FAQ.

we were talking post faq and that data does not actually show the opposite.

it shows the top players didn't use gladiators.

that is not the same.

23 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

The Cymoon I think is a big part of it. 6 reds with IF is murdering small ships on a reliable basis. Ask @geek19 about his Run DMC experiences. Previously a CR90 could weather a turn of long range front arc before scooting into the the side and keeping up that relentless TRC pressure. You can't do that to a Cymoon. You can try to avoid that front arc entirely, but that's not exactly easy and, more importantly, it costs you a turn of damage against a ship that's pretty tough. Combine that with EWS and squadrons, I think that's what's been killing MSU. Spike damage with large pools is where it's at right now. I don't want to claim certainty of the cause. All I have for that is my own experience using MSU in waves 6 and 7 and conjecture.

I've been beating my head against the Double Cymoon wall since the wave dropped. IMO, it's a combination of two things; first that those Cymoons will kill whatever small 1-command ship you throw at them. ISD-IIs were MEAN, but at long range most ships can survive a 4 red dice blap. But the 5-7 (base, spinals, CF depending on build) red dice that can reach out and touch you will sometimes under Vader just luck into the bulls*** roll they need to wipe your ship. Triple Doubles happen, and you can at best evade 1 of them. Yeah, the side arc is easier to deal with, but that's still 4 dice, potentially with accuracy tech if your opponent went H9s on them (and there's always the H9-quad turbos sadness town, TOO!). You can try to stay at only red range, but when those ISDs are driving at you speed 3.... you can only dodge so much and stay so far away.

Add in Strategic Adviser, and those double ISD lists easily get 4 activations and can go a squadless 5 activations. So, even if you have Initiative, you need to Red Rover one ship, tag the ISD for damage, then GTFO. All while keeping another 4-5 ships NOT in range to get shot by one of the 2 ISDs. It's NOT easy. You can take one down in a battle, but getting that second is nigh impossible, especially on anything that took external racks (ie most of your small black dice ships). You'll get an ISD, sure. Maybe even the one that's not with Vader and Tua EWS/ECM, but that's roughly 130 points. If they didn't take Most Wanted from your objectives.... plus, you get 130. How many ships did you lose? Cause watch that lead explode. You can maybe come out of it with a 6-5, 7-4 if you kill his Gozanti(s) and TIEs.

It's a MEAN ship, Bront. It will wipe hammerheads, CR90s, Nebs. Admo has a chance of hopping it, but what's the rest of your list do? I'm not sure "spend the battle running" is the right idea, there. Especially if he gets initiative. I continue to bash my head against that wall, of course, and should I figure out the "trick" I'll let everyone know.

2 hours ago, Truthiness said:

You'll have to ask @Baltanok for wave 6. I will openly admit I'm relying on my own shoddy memory for that, so apologies in advance if I mischaracterized that data.

wave 6 data:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NR5jNoKNtDX9qHrMHIpDdFl8OzGSOEi_ELJ5ylvu4u4/edit#gid=134329681

breaking wave 6 fleets down between 3+ smalls (non-flotillas) and 0-2 non-flot smalls gets: (top 4/all)

3+ Small 7/57

0-2 Small 42/185

Excluding 120+ squads, the effect is smaller, but still present:

3+ Small 6/48

0-2 Small 18/119

I definitely agree with @Truthiness opinion that MSU's were in trouble in wave 6, and are currently in trouble in wave 7.

2 hours ago, Geressen said:

we were talking post faq and that data does not actually show the opposite.

it shows the top players didn't use gladiators.

that is not the same.

Sure, I'll Grant you the first point. I am hoping it makes a comeback post-FAQ

The second...what? What are you seeing? How does it show people using Gladiators less than CR90s? Every list that was submitted is in the second tab. Feel free to comb through. Regardless, I'm talking about 3+ small ship lists, especially those that made the top 4. There were exactly two out of the 63 that were recorded. One of them was Crackenator TRC90 swarm and the other was triple Gladiators. Considering those were THE lists in the early waves, that shows me how far the mighty have fallen.

28 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

wave 6 data:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NR5jNoKNtDX9qHrMHIpDdFl8OzGSOEi_ELJ5ylvu4u4/edit#gid=134329681

breaking wave 6 fleets down between 3+ smalls (non-flotillas) and 0-2 non-flot smalls gets: (top 4/all)

3+ Small 7/57

0-2 Small 42/185

Excluding 120+ squads, the effect is smaller, but still present:

3+ Small 6/48

0-2 Small 18/119

I definitely agree with @Truthiness opinion that MSU's were in trouble in wave 6, and are currently in trouble in wave 7.

This is what I've been saying also.

@geek19 , seems like you're up against the Cymoon wall too? I've been trying vs it also. Do you agree with the analysis?

13 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

This is what I've been saying also.

@geek19 , seems like you're up against the Cymoon wall too? I've been trying vs it also. Do you agree with the analysis?

The analysis that MSU is in trouble? Yes, with a few caveats. First one being that the nerf makes them more viable. If I just need to crack a carrier and another ship, ignoring the flotilla and squadrons, then that's more doable (where i dont get harassed by squadrons when they get tabled). It's a lot more difficult to do that with Double Cymoons, but it could be doable, depending on how you can crack one or not.

And that's the kicker, too. In a world of generic MSU, I'd put generic MSU in trouble. But someone who's been running it for a while? I might give it to them, especially something like a Rieekan swarm one of our locals uses (so many flipping CR90s....). This isn't me disagreeing, so much as me saying that I know I personally am having issues running them now against that Double Cymoon skew (some of this may be my lack of MSU experience). Were it just a list with one Cymoon, I don't know how it would factor out, but my experiences have been largely fighting against 2 of them. As confident and contrarian as I am, I think (probably wrongly ) that I could take ONE Cymoon. But I personally have no chance right now against 2 flown well. I don't WANT to say MSU has no chance, because I WANT to believe all builds are viable, depending on matchups and how things roll out and all. But it's going to take some solid doing if you come up against that build at Worlds, and I really worry that it's going to be all over the place (I worry that I'll have to FACE it, haha).

The other kicker, of course, is that with Wave 7 making Larges great again, especially with Cymoons, Kuats, and MC75s and Radduses, it's not necessarily EASY to fit 3+ smalls in there if you want not flotillas and Raddus's large ship and all. Or to phrase it slightly differently, I know a lot of players that got in to push ISDs around, but I only know one kid who jumped to Rebels in order to play with Hammerheads. I don't know how you factor THAT into the data, that people WANT to play with the big ships because they're big. It makes the pew pew noises better, but I know I've been trying MSU because I'm a contrarian doofus.

MSU (in my opinion) isn't the....easiest thing to learn, I'd say. And that contributes as well, especially in my experiences. I can take an ISD or an MC80 and if i blunder into trouble I can make some points back before it dies. But if I blunder into the wrong range with a CR90 or Hammerhead, that's a dead CR90/HH (jokes about Rieekan training wheels certainly can help with THAT). I know I personally enjoy the challenge at times, and the reason I like MSU is that it's so much knife edge maneuvering and small rabbit punches that keep adding up. But that's not necessarily everyone's game, much like squadrons or double ISDs aren't.

So, TLDR; kinda? I just don't know how many people aren't choosing it because it's not viable and how many aren't because they don't want to play that list type. But a lot less people are playing it, and that's significant, that's for sure. Again, not disagreeing, but do we have the data from previous waves? Assuming wave 2 and the clonisher build was the heyday of MSU (and i'm not definitively saying it is), have we been in a steady decline since? Has multiple ship types being viable affected this? I'm agreeing with you that MSU is less seen NOW; but the question I'm now interested in is WHY is it less seen? What's causing THAT issue (does the fact that you could bring 3+ flotillas affect it? Was it decreasing in use as time went on anyways as newer ships showed up/became viable? Was the rise in viable larges/mediums contributory?)

48 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Again, not disagreeing, but do we have the data from previous waves? Assuming wave 2 and the clonisher build was the heyday of MSU (and i'm not definitively saying it is), have we been in a steady decline since? Has multiple ship types being viable affected this? I'm agreeing with you that MSU is less seen NOW; but the question I'm now interested in is WHY is it less seen? What's causing THAT issue (does the fact that you could bring 3+ flotillas affect it? Was it decreasing in use as time went on anyways as newer ships showed up/became viable? Was the rise in viable larges/mediums contributory?)

we have reasonable data from waves 3/4 & 5. I'd have to do some work to get comparable numbers, but I can do it. It will depend on how much energy Baby Baltanok & Mrs Baltanok need this week. (she's walking! Well, technically, they both are, but Mrs Baltanok walking isn't exactly news !)

2 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

we have reasonable data from waves 3/4 & 5. I'd have to do some work to get comparable numbers, but I can do it. It will depend on how much energy Baby Baltanok & Mrs Baltanok need this week. (she's walking! Well, technically, they both are, but Mrs Baltanok walking isn't exactly news !)

How dare you take care of and love your family instead of providing me plastic spaceship data! Nah, take your time. I'd be interested in seeing how all sorts of varied builds developed over time and all (MSU, squads, big heavy, etc). I don't know if anything will mean anything, but I'd say wave 3 and the flotilla insertion is a fine starting point. Thanks in advance.

4 hours ago, Truthiness said:

that shows me how far the mighty have fallen.

in popularity*

( still doesn't rule out user error)

Can you post a sample list of this dreaded double Cymoon build, so I have a better idea of what we're talking about?

I have made a MSU build. Is it good? Eh

Name:
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault: Opening Salvo
Defense: Capture the VIP
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

Gladiator I (56)
• Admiral Montferrat (5)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Engine Techs (8)
• External Racks (3)
• Demolisher (10)
= 86 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Moff Jerjerrod (23)
• Agent Kallus (3)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• External Racks (3)
• Insidious (3)
= 92 Points

Raider II (48)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• Heavy Ion Emplacements (9)
= 60 Points

Raider I (44)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• External Racks (3)
= 51 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
= 23 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
= 23 Points

Squadrons:
• Valen Rudor (13)
• Morna Kee (27)
• Ciena Ree (17)
= 57 Points

Total Points: 392

5 hours ago, Stefan said:

Can you post a sample list of this dreaded double Cymoon build, so I have a better idea of what we're talking about?

2 cymoons, h9s and quad turbolaser turrets on both, along with Gunnery Team. One has IF!, Vader, Tua, ECM/EWS (whichever you feel right now). Other has Strat Ad. Add 2 gozantis or 1 and squadrons to taste, maybe a title if you want? But that's the start of what I've seen. Nav most turns, blow things out of the sky.

So I don't own any GSDs, but I've always thought they'd be really good with a Targeting Scrambler + Projection interdictor letting them slug things out at close range

[Interdictor, Wulf, projection experts, targeting Scrambler ]

Problem with the interdictor is it's large ship price without strategic advisor

Still, SCREED (always imagine he'd "COBRAAAA!" his name) on a decked out Interdictor (including disposable + Heavy Ion emplacements) fits with two GSDs (racks, experts, medical team, one demolisher) with room for a third and more stuff

Or maybe dump heavy ions from the interdictor to get two GSDs and two Raider-2s with Heavy Ions. Or for a bid dump a raider for a gonzati or two (repair crew?) and put heavy ions back on the Interdictor

Or two projection experts scrambler Interdictors (with disposable + heavy Ions) and two GSDs

Example:

NEED FOR SCREED

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 390/400

Commander: Admiral Screed

Assault Objective: Station Assault
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Admiral Screed ( 26 points)
- Interdictor ( 3 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Projection Experts ( 6 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Heavy Ion Emplacements ( 9 points)
- Targeting Scrambler ( 5 points)
= 149 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Medical Team ( 1 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 72 total ship cost

Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Medical Team ( 1 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 82 total ship cost

Raider II-Class Corvette (48 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Heavy Ion Emplacements ( 9 points)
= 60 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 27 total ship cost

= 0 total squadron cost

ify on red objective (no experience with Campaign objectives), wiggle room between Repair Crews (Comms? Nothing?) and potentially wulf. Experimental Projector potentially worth it?

EDIT: oh derp, I made them Glad-IIs. please feel free to reacquire 16 points for whatever you wish. could be engine techs, projector, another gonzati, or a giant bid

Gladiators are cool but even in wave one the ones not named Demolisher didn't really do much. It weapons just didn't extend far enough.

On 4/16/2018 at 11:43 AM, GiledPallaeon said:

Yeah, this. They aren't new and shiny, so people forget that Gladiators in fact cost 56, not 70, or that the Assault Frigate is still far and away the best battle carrier the Rebels have and a very good heavy cruiser type component.

Am I supposed to be sympathetic to CR90 drivers who now have to work for their damage?

Yeah but with Jana's Light who really needs to work? How are your star destroyers feeling these days?

On 4/16/2018 at 8:43 AM, GiledPallaeon said:

Yeah, this. They aren't new and shiny, so people forget that Gladiators in fact cost 56, not 70, or that the Assault Frigate is still far and away the best battle carrier the Rebels have and a very good heavy cruiser type component.

I have been having decent success with a Sato AF/Paragon/Ord Experts/QBT build. This was back in November, but it reliably punched above its weight as long as I was able to double arc. Which really isn't that hard to do if you have Nav commands queued up...

21 hours ago, jamie nasmyth said:

Yeah but with Jana's Light who really needs to work? How are your star destroyers feeling these days?

I dunno, what happened to that flaming wreck formerly known as a MC75?

58 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I dunno, what happened to that flaming wreck formerly known as a MC75?

Gentleman, gentleman! Can we not all agree that smashing our ships together going: Pew! Pew! Brawaaaakerrshboom! Is the best way to play!?!?

1 hour ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I dunno, what happened to that flaming wreck formerly known as a MC75?

Everything was going fine for it until the Fire Lanes nation attacked...

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Everything was going fine for it until the Fire Lanes nation attacked...

Nah, it was two of those superheavy I-2s. The poor 75 was practically vaporized.

2 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I dunno, what happened to that flaming wreck formerly known as a MC75?

Victorious, sacrificed for a noble cause to defeat the Empire

Man the mc-75 too?

I remember that being all the rage when Riekan hit

Never much liked it because of the bid you needed to make sure it went in last and, next round, activated first

Anyway, these Cymoons sound amazing. Any chance this makes Akbar afmk2s good? They throw out the same long range dice

Guess not having Vader for rerolls is no bueno, though, or Intensify (Foward) Firepower. Wish the pelta was better

On 16.4.2018 at 8:55 AM, FrightfulCommand said:

I miss commanding these ships. The Gladiator, especially as multiples, is so fun. Also, the mk.II, Nebulon-b, and cr90, Raiders. Perhaps there will be more people playing these ships now with the rule set? Would the Gladiator and 5 Raider type of fleets come back and be good?

I hope that they are still somewhat useful- got my second glad today. (But lets say 1 and 1/2 and not second, since the first one melted - oops)

I am no game expert, nor experienced gamer, nor armada player with a widespread view (just play) imperial - however there isn’t really a ship I own I would refuse to take (sorry arquittens). For the rebels i’d say the same out of my distant view, maybe with the exception of the Pelta, but it seems to have gained some usefulness with IF! And the most recent FAQ limiting Flotillas.

well that are my two cents at least...