Are there any non-lightsaber options for reflect? I'm working on the idea of a social character who wouldn't be able to carry around a glowing deathstick. Thanks!

Just now, Ahrimon said:

Are there any non-lightsaber options for reflect? I'm working on the idea of a social character who wouldn't be able to carry around a glowing deathstick. Thanks!

Reflect simply requires the use of a weapon that uses the lightsaber skill to use, not just lightsabers. One such weapon is the Ancient Sword.

The Cortosis shield and perhaps the shield gauntlet both allow you to reflect I think, it’s in their description if they can. Remember that being able to reflect a blaster shot is as common as being able to dodge bullets... you may need the Saber to deal with the hostile guards afterward!

Yeah definitely the shield guantlet. I'm AFB, so not sure about the swords.

Looks like shield gauntlet yes, cortosis shield no. With the addition of the training stick and philaxian phase-knife I should be good. I may see if my GM will let me build a philaxian phase pike/spear/naginata like weapon.

3 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Remember that being able to reflect a blaster shot is as common as being able to dodge bullets...

Reflect requires Force sensitivity. Dodging bullets just requires being lucky.

Theres an upgrade of Protect that lets you reflect back damage if you block it all and use only lightside pips I believe?

Mastery : Lightside Force users may spend 2 Force to reflect all attacks they reduce to 0 damage, dealing damage equal to the initial attack to the attacker.

So takes 4 Force overall but really strong and can reflect attacks on others if you shielded them.

It would be nice, but so far it looks like getting a force rating of 4 will be really hard. I don't expect to see more than 300xp before we switch games.

36 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

It would be nice, but so far it looks like getting a force rating of 4 will be really hard. I don't expect to see more than 300xp before we switch games.

You technically don't need force rating 4, you can generate 4 force pips at force rating 2 its just not common. And as a seer or sage you can get force rating 2 quite early on and will eventually get to 3 at the end of the tree. However getting to this part of the force power is expensive.

If 300 is your expectation then don’t think about the things you do at 300, think about what you’re doing at 100 and 200. I would probably bump 1 Characteristic (Willpower) to 4, then spend more than usual of starting xp on Talents and Force Powers. Like I said earlier I would take Sage, Influence and Move from the start, that gives you something to do in various encounters. Getting to the first Force Rating Upgrade should be your priority, by the time you have earned 100 xp you should have FR2 with a few upgrades in Move and Influence. Remember your mostly going to have 2, sometimes 3, Pips to spend when Activating a power, So with Move you can at best activate only 1 or 2 Upgrades, pick one or 2 and focus on them, such as Magnitude and range with the Hurl Upgrade. Influence can let you add Success to social checks, even with only a Presence of 2 you can be the face

With 45 xp in Move you can disarm 4 npc’s from Medium Range, or throw up to 4 small objects for 5+Success Damage each, either for only 3 Force Pips. Add a Strength Upgrade later to move your friends out of or into danger.

50 xp in Influence lets you stress 3 targets at Medium, mind trick 3 targets at Medium, or add 3 Success/Advantage to social checks, all for 3 Pips.

With 50 of your starting xp on Talents you can have FR 3 by the time you earned 200xp. Leaving 100 more to enjoy filling out other fun things, perhaps Farsight for narrative fun and to boost Perception/Vigilance, or the left of Enhance to be a decent pilot or bump Agility for using guns, a few ranks in a couple of skills too.

This is a character who relies on the force to be awesome, so finding efficient ways to use the force are important.

I find it interesting that an ancient sword and a practice stick can be used with lightsaber but regular swords can't. Hopefully the warrior book will include a melee attachment that allows someone to "re-balance" a melee weapon to be used with lightsaber.

I figure it's more to do with it's balance making it easier to pull such a fast reaction. It's comparatively easier to parry a physical weapon attack away rather than deflect a blaster bolt just in terms of speed and accuracy required. That said, for me, you get to use reflect once with the practice stick and then that item is toast, unless it's narrative capable of resisting the damage, like being made of metal with a minor cortosis element to the alloy for durability. If it's a wooden practice stick, that thing is a one use item for reflect.

A practice stick isn't a lightsaber weapon (it is a melee weapon that uses the Lightsaber skill) , and thus isn't eligible for the Reflect talent.

2 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

A practice stick isn't a lightsaber weapon (it is a melee weapon that uses the Lightsaber skill) , and thus isn't eligible for the Reflect talent.

This is the case for the ancient sword too.

14 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

I find it interesting that an ancient sword and a practice stick can be used with lightsaber but regular swords can't. Hopefully the warrior book will include a melee attachment that allows someone to "re-balance" a melee weapon to be used with lightsaber.

7 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

This is the case for the ancient sword too.

Ancient sword is supposed to represent the swords used by Jedi/Je'daii before lightsabres were invented. The lore is they are imbued with the Force which gives them the ability to deflect/reflect energy. The RAW says they function the same as a lightsabre as far as Skill and Talents go (can't remember the pg #).

On 4/15/2018 at 3:33 PM, Ahrimon said:

Are there any non-lightsaber options for reflect? I'm working on the idea of a social character who wouldn't be able to carry around a glowing deathstick. Thanks!

On 4/15/2018 at 9:42 PM, Ahrimon said:

It would be nice, but so far it looks like getting a force rating of 4 will be really hard. I don't expect to see more than 300xp before we switch games.

In all honesty if this is the case I wouldn't bother with Reflect or the Specialization Tree you'd need to buy to get it. Spend that EXP on other Talents and Skills, and on Sense then maybe Protect. You can always narrate a miss due to the Sense upgrade as you batted away the blaster bolt. You won't get the damage reduction for spending Strain but then you don't have a glowstick to draw attention too either.

3 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

Ancient sword is supposed to represent the swords used by Jedi/Je'daii before lightsabres were invented. The lore is they are imbued with the Force which gives them the ability to deflect/reflect energy. The RAW says they function the same as a lightsabre as far as Skill and Talents go (can't remember the pg #).

With the Ancient Sword, that is incorrect.

Per Reflect's full wording on page 150, you must be using a Lightsaber weapon in order to use the talent. Not a weapon that simply uses the Lightsaber skill, but an actual weapon that is categorized as being a Lightsaber.

The Ancient Sword, while listing Lightsaber as it's governing skill on Table 5-6: Melee Weapons on page 172, is considered to be a Melee weapon. And in the Ancient Sword's descriptive text on the same page, there's zero mention of the wielder being able to use said weapon with the Reflect talent.

Looking at the Lightsaber skill itself on page 130, there's no mention of ancient swords getting an exception with regards to Reflect, though to be fair there's no mention of Reflect or ancient swords in the skill description.

Additionally, it was even clarified by Sam Stewart on the O66 podcast episode where they discussed the F&D core rulebook that Ancient Swords don't count as Lightsaber weapons, as they're not on Table 5-7: Lightsabers on page 177 and as noted above are listed as being Melee weapons.

Thus far, any exceptions to the "must be a Lightsaber weapon" have been spelled out, such as is the case with the Shield Gauntlet from page 44 of Keeping the Peace.

Closest thing to anything in this vein that is the sidebar on page 152 about Lightsaber (Characteristic) checks, but that only applies to talents that specify a characteristic to be used when making Lightsaber checks for certain talents, namely that you must use that characteristic such as is the case with Hawk-Bat Swoop using Agility or Defensive Circle using Intellect and that you must have the talent that allows you to use that alternate characteristic in place of Brawn. But no exceptions made for the ancient sword.

So while it might be a neat house rule to employ in one's games, there's zilch in the RAW to back your assertion up.

5 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

Ancient sword is supposed to represent the swords used by Jedi/Je'daii before lightsabres were invented. The lore is they are imbued with the Force which gives them the ability to deflect/reflect energy. The RAW says they function the same as a lightsabre as far as Skill and Talents go (can't remember the pg #).

The fact that the training sticks can be used with the lightsaber skill says otherwise though. Under the ancient sword it even says "a unique balance that made them difficult to master for those used to wielding more mundane weapons." and that some are modern replicas. For 350 credits I don't think it's a matter "ancient force imbued weapon" rather than unique balance.

That's why I'd like to see a melee weapon attachment that re-balances a weapon to use the Lightsaber skill.

5 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

In all honesty if this is the case I wouldn't bother with Reflect or the Specialization Tree you'd need to buy to get it. Spend that EXP on other Talents and Skills, and on Sense then maybe Protect. You can always narrate a miss due to the Sense upgrade as you batted away the blaster bolt. You won't get the damage reduction for spending Strain but then you don't have a glowstick to draw attention too either.

I'm probably going Entrepreneur/Padawan Survivor so we'll see. I'll probably try to invest in a shield gauntlet.

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

With the Ancient Sword, that is incorrect.

You're right, I misremembered. I recently re-read Into the Void and conflated the lore with the RAW.

@Donovan Morningfire

Sam's answer definitely clears it up for those that follow O66, but a large majority of players don't, so I don't think it's as clear cut as you think it is. The wording under reflect says "lightsaber weapon" not "lightsaber" and since ancient sword and their like use lightsaber as the skill it could be argued that they are lightsaber weapons.

I like to consider myself a rules person, and I was ready to accept their usage until you pointed me towards the O66 episode. And to be honest, there are several occasions where Sam and folks have made rules that contradicted what was in the book.

I'll definitely concede RAI, but RAW isn't as black and white to me.

Honestly, I would be fine with using almost anything to deflect a blaster bolt to some extent, but a lightsaber is usually the only thing that won't be destroyed by the blast. In my mind, it's not the quickness of a lightsaber that makes it possible, it's the user's precognitive abilities to sense incoming danger. Even without Foresee or Sense, he's got some kind of "spidey-sense." I imagine some long-ago mystic swordsman parried a blaster bolt with his blade, leaving everyone in awe. His engineer buddy looked at his now-shattered and smoking weapon and said, "Ya know, there's this theoretical energy beam that we been workin' on. Pretty good as a cuttin' tool, but I think we just found a **** of a use for it."

So yeah, I would probably allow a player to use other objects for Reflect, with the caveat that it's going to suck, and that object is gonna be toast real quick. A lightsaber basically redirects the whole burst of energy. A sword, on the other hand, is going to cause the shot to burst about a foot from the wielder. It will certainly suffer at least one damage level. A wooden staff, on the other hand, is going to explode in a shower of hot splinters, and the shot might continue right through it.

Perhaps allow Reflect, but it generally only reduces the damage by Ranks in Reflect (not +2). Sturdy items might last a couple shots, but most others are immediately destroyed. Cortosis weapons might not suffer from the blaster fire, but they're usually not designed for such a purpose.

9 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

Sam's answer definitely clears it up for those that follow O66, but a large majority of players don't, so I don't think it's as clear cut as you think it is. The wording under reflect says "lightsaber weapon" not "lightsaber" and since ancient sword and their like use lightsaber as the skill it could be argued that they are lightsaber weapons.

I like to consider myself a rules person, and I was ready to accept their usage until you pointed me towards the O66 episode. And to be honest, there are several occasions where Sam and folks have made rules that contradicted what was in the book.

I'll definitely concede RAI, but RAW isn't as black and white to me.

Here's the thing, is that saying "oh, this weapon uses the Lightsaber skill and thus is a lightsaber weapon" is very much a power-gaming twisting of the rules. As I noted, the Ancient Sword is listed as a Melee weapon, and like the training stick only differs from other Melee weapons such as vibroswords and truncheons in that it uses the Lightsaber skill to make combat checks, but in all other instances it's still a Melee weapon as it's found in the Melee chapter of the core rulebook, and is listed in the table that specifically covers Melee weapons.

Sorry, but trying to read the RAW to say anything other than "Ancient Sword is a Melee weapon that uses a skill other than Melee to make combat checks" is twisting the rules.

Again, you want to allow Ancient Swords to be used with Reflect as a house rule? Go for it, just accept that it's a house rule and is not part of RAI or RAW. Sam's O66 response is merely a clarification. And if you still don't buy that, you're welcome to submit a question to FFG about whether Ancient Swords can officially be used with Reflect. Willing to be the answer is along the lines of "officially no, but as a house rule go right ahead!"

I'm not saying that your wrong, I'm just saying that it's not black and white and that someone who doesn't listen to O66 or browse the forums could easily make the assumption that it does work.

I actually did submit the question the other day, but since it's the 4th question that I've submitted in the last two weeks and I haven't gotten a single reply I'm not holding out hope to hear anything back from them.

4 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

I'm not saying that your wrong, I'm just saying that it's not black and white and that someone who doesn't listen to O66 or browse the forums could easily make the assumption that it does work.

I actually did submit the question the other day, but since it's the 4th question that I've submitted in the last two weeks and I haven't gotten a single reply I'm not holding out hope to hear anything back from them.

I've sent a couple of questions to them recently too, unrelated to this discussion, and I think the system might be"broken". The Captcha system they had been using expired after the 4th of the month, and for quite a while up to that, there was no random words to type in, only the "warning" of impending expiration. Whether the new Captcha system works or not, allowing questions to get through, is unknown.