I don't do much with force powers so I was hoping I could get some insight from more knowledgeable folks.

When using the sense power and the first control upgrade where you commit a force die and can upgrade the difficulty of an attack against you, could you commit two force dice and upgrade two attacks against you? I know the duration upgrade allows a second use, but if you can commit two dice, then the duration upgrade would allow allow you to upgrade four times if it works this way.

No; each commit ability indicates (or at least, they SHOULD indicate) whether or not they can be "activated multiple times." What that means is that you can commit multiple dice when activating the effect to gain the ability multiple times while those dice are committed.

The classic example of a multiple activation: Yes ability is Enhance. With the two ongoing effects, you can commit multiple times, increasing your Brawn or Agility by 1 for each die committed.

The classic example of a multiple activation: No ability are the Sense combat abilities, which explicitly call out that they can't be activated multiple times.

Ok. I was reading that as activated once per force die committed. But the sentence "The user may not activate this multiple times." would be the limiter. So even if the player committed two FD to Sense, you could still only activate it once. Thank you.

2 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

Ok. I was reading that as activated once per force die committed. But the sentence "The user may not activate this multiple times." would be the limiter. So even if the player committed two FD to Sense, you could still only activate it once. Thank you.

Not quite. The "can't activate multiple times" line means you are unable to commit more than one Force die to the effect. Let me try to explain it a slightly different way:

So, there are two kinds of Force powers out there: those that have you roll your Force dice, and those that have you commit dice. Both of them cost an action to use (unless otherwise indicated). For the commit Force dice effects, the flow is as follows:

1. Spend an Action to activate the talent or power.
(2. Commit the specified number of Force dice to activate the listed effect.
3. Return to step 2, if desired.)
4. Your Action is over, continue with the rest of your turn.

However, any ability that says, "The Force user may not activate this multiple times," means that you strike out step 3 - you can only do step 2 once.

If the Sense ongoing effects did not have that line, how it would work when you commit multiple dice is that, for each Force die committed, you could upgrade one attack each round. With the duration upgrade, you could upgrade two attacks per Force die per round (so, four attacks in a round for 2 committed Force dice). However, because it does include that line, you can never commit more than one die to that effect, and therefore never upgrade more than two attacks per round.

In theory, every effect that allows you to commit Force dice should list whether or not you can "activate" the effect (i.e. commit multiple sets of dice to get the listed effect more than once) in the long description. However, they are unfortunately inconsistent with this. The assumed default is that, if it doesn't say, you can activate the effect multiple times, although there are some instances where common sense would say you should only be able to do it once, but it doesn't have a listed restriction.

The only other instance we haven't touched on is Duration upgrades (like from Battle Meditation and Suppress) that have you commit to maintain the effects of a power you rolled for. In these instances, the flow is as follows:

1. Spend an Action to activate the power.
(2. Roll your Force dice, with any other necessary skill check.
3. Spend the Force points generated to activate the power and any upgrades you want.
4. Commit the specified number of Force dice to maintain the effects of the power and the upgrades activated in step 3, if desired.)
5. Your Action is over, continue with the rest of your turn.

@Absol197 you just made me wonder if you could commit 1 die to the Defence and one to the Offence upgrades in a single action. You can’t activate each effect multiple times but perhaps you could do each one once.

No, because they're separate upgrades that both say, "As an action..." So they're two separate effects, requiring an action each. For the same reason, you can't boost Brawn and Agility at the same time with Enhance.

Now, if it had been a single upgrade that said, "you may commit 1 Force die to upgrade defense, and you may commit 1 Force die to upgrade offense," then you could do either or both with one action. Or if the offensive upgrade had some language to the effect that it was an addendum to the defensive one, that would do it. But since they both say they require an action, no dice (pun not intended, but appreciated ).

I knew it sounded too good, thanks.

I found this on page 282 of the core book too. "While an ongoing effect is active, the character may not activate that specific ongoing effect again (the character cannot be benefiting from two "copies” of the same ongoing effect)."

I guess I need to be more thorough in my reading. Thanks @Absol197

On 4/15/2018 at 1:22 PM, Absol197 said:

there are two kinds of Force powers out there: those that have you roll your Force dice, and those that have you commit dice. Both of them cost an action to use (unless otherwise indicated).

Is this something you know because the developers have told you, or because you are part of the inner circle yourself, or is it based on your reading of the rules? Because from my reading of the rules, it's very clear that it costs an action to roll force dice - page 280, column 2, paragraph 3. As it does to activate some force talents (page 282, column 2, paragraph 2). But it doesn't say anything similar that I can see for committing force dice: in particular, the section Committing Force Dice on page 281-2 doesn't mention it.

16 hours ago, David Bofinger said:

Is this something you know because the developers have told you, or because you are part of the inner circle yourself, or is it based on your reading of the rules? Because from my reading of the rules, it's very clear that it costs an action to roll force dice - page 280, column 2, paragraph 3. As it does to activate some force talents (page 282, column 2, paragraph 2). But it doesn't say anything similar that I can see for committing force dice: in particular, the section Committing Force Dice on page 281-2 doesn't mention it.

See the section on 282 titled "Force Powers." Paragraph three is the one you want: "... using the power requires one action in structured time. " (emphasis is part of the quote).

Here's my take on Sense and why it fits outside the "one action in structured time" rule.

It seems that there are some “Commit” type upgrades that are directly connected to the Basic Power, while others function independent of the Basic Power. For example, some have the text that says, “Commit force die to sustain the ongoing effect of the power...” (Like Bind: Duration, and Misdirect: Duration.)

Others say “Commit force die to get XX effect.” (Like Misdirect: Control, and Seek: Control.)

The rules say that “...unless the power’s description specifically states otherwise, using the power requires an action in structured time.” I can see how this can work for just about all the Force Basic Powers, and the Durations or Controls, except for Sense.

Here’s the key bit of language that makes it unique... “Once per round, when an attack targets the Force user , he upgrades the difficulty of the pool once.” It is done out of the PCs turn when he is targeted, not on his turn when he would normally commit a dice for an action. It’s a triggered defensive event. It can only happen once that round though, so only 1 of multiple possible attacks on him would get the benefit.

Continue reading down that line to Duration... “Sense’s ongoing effect may be triggered one additional time per round.” I think the key wording here is triggered . It’s something the PC can do when something happens to him .

The last Control is interesting too, and is now an offensive power. “Commit Force Die. Once per round, when the Force user makes a combat check , he upgrades the ability of that check once.” Again, if Committing a Die is an Action, he would never be able to make a combat check to capitalize on the power since it would be 2 actions. However, if it was an incidental, he could commit and make the combat check on the same turn.

Once a die is committed no further action or manoeuvre is required to maintain that commitment, so with Sense you Commit on your turn to get a benefit later on. You get to choose when the effect is triggered, but you have to burn the action and reduce your Force rating first

Yeah, I can totally understand that. To your point, the text says "Commit Force Die. (Period)" which could be read into meaning the action needs to be taken during his turn, and then when attacked, it would then be triggered . I can see that.

Although, it makes the power pretty weak, and not very usable. If he's taking each round's turn to commit a die, just to upgrade an incoming attack once, he's essentially taken himself out of the attacking group. The power can be mimicked with a simple Destiny flip that anyone can do. Granted, that's where the other upgrades come into play, which would then make the power decent.

So how does the last Control upgrade work? If you have to use an action to commit, you would have to wait until the next round to utilize it. Would the new round indicate that the committed die is no longer active? Or does it really mean you spend 2 rounds to attack once with an upgrade, instead of 2 rounds to attack twice (assuming "1 round" means from the start of your turn until your turn again, and not the start of the round until the end of that round)? Seems like a pretty weak upgrade with more hindering results than helpful.

Your missing the important fact that the Dice remains committed until you choose to uncommit it. Let’s say it’s a Combat lasting 5 rounds;

PC Round 1: you Commit a Force Dice to Defence and Draw your weapon and suffer strain to move closer.

NPC 1 Round 1: they double move to engage you

PC Round 2: You Aim and Attack.

NPC 1 Round 2: they attack you, upgrading the check because your Force Dice is still committed.

PC Round 3: You Attack and kill NPC 1

NPC 2 Round 3: they shoot you with a pistol, upgrading the check because your dice is still committed

PC Round 4: You choose to uncommit your Force Dice as an Incidental then you Commit your Force dice to Attack, then you double move to get to short range of the second group of enemies.

NPC 2 Round 4: they attack, but there’s no upgrading since you uncommitted your defence effect.

PC Round 5: You engage then Attack NPC 2, upgrading the check thanks to your committed dice, killing the NPC

Oh! So the once per round isn’t “use the power and that’s all” but instead it’s “use the power only one time, but it still is in effect for the next round.” That makes sense and makes the power a lot better.

And it’s not just the next round, it’s indefinitely. You indefinitely reduce your Force rating to permanently gain the benefit, you could even commit the dice before combat so you don’t have to do it during combat, perhaps if you’re setting up an ambush.

So could you technically, if you were a Force Level 2 with all the Sense upgrades, take 1 round to commit 1 die to the defensive side, and commit the other die in the next round for the offensive bonus, and keep both committed for the remainder of the combat rounds?

1 minute ago, Joress said:

So could you technically, if you were a Force Level 2 with all the Sense upgrades, take 1 round to commit 1 die to the defensive side, and commit the other die in the next round for the offensive bonus, and keep both committed for the remainder of the combat rounds?

Absolutely! This is the way it's intended to work, in fact. Do note, though, that that's two combat rounds where you're not attacking, meaning the first time you could attack would be in round 3. Not many combats last more than 3 rounds. Some major ones might, certainly, but using both at the same time just takes too darn long in most combats.

However you can get the mystic talent that means you can launch one as a manuever for 2 strain - which can help

And just FYI. The upgrade that allows 2 uses of the upgrades can be used on both powers...though i dont know how you get a second attack. Maybe as a part of improved parry and improved reflect.

The strength upgrade also applies to both powers.

I can only think of two ways to attack twice in a round; the Bounty Hunter Signature Ability, and using The Force Is My Ally Talent to Attack with theMove Force Power as a manoeuvre

1 hour ago, Richardbuxton said:

I can only think of two ways to attack twice in a round; the Bounty Hunter Signature Ability, and using The Force Is My Ally Talent to Attack with theMove Force Power as a manoeuvre

There's also Improved Field Commander, which the Peacekeeper gets and can allow allies to take an action out of turn.

Additionally, Force Assault, the Niman talent, allows you to use Move after a missed Lightsaber attack. While it's unlikely that you'll miss while using the offensive Sense upgrade, if you do you can make a Move attack and have that upgraded as well as a maneuver with Force Assault.

There's Force is My Ally, of course.

Unleash can be used by Dark-siders as a maneuver once per session as well, which could allow two upgraded attacks.

As you mentioned, a Bounty Hunter who has Force powers could use Unmatched Devastation.

Hmm... I'm pretty sure there's at least one more way, but I can't think of it right now. But while they're somewhat niche, at least I hope I've shown it's not quite as rare as it seems at first glance .

Ahh, Niman, that’s definitely the best use... except you won’t have as many Force Dice ?

3 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I can only think of two ways to attack twice in a round; the Bounty Hunter Signature Ability, and using The Force Is My Ally Talent to Attack with theMove Force Power as a manoeuvre

also unleash spend destiny to use as maneuver

On 5/15/2018 at 7:54 AM, Richardbuxton said:

PC Round 4: You choose to uncommit your Force Dice as an Incidental then you Commit your Force dice to Attack, then you double move to get to short range of the second group of enemies.

A small but very important correction here, uncommitting a force die occurs as an incidental at your choice at the end of your round, so you cannot uncommit and then recommit in the same round, you have to go to your next round to commit again.