Would it be too unbalanced to start off Jedi Padawan PCs with an FR of 2 rate out of the gate? I, as the GM, and the PCs are all interested in a Jedi game that lets PCs be more like Padawans from the Clone Wars or other Old Republic material who were able to use lots of Force powers consistently, which a FR of 1 makes difficult.

Jedi Padawans aren't starting-level characters. They are already highly trained, and relatively experienced, by the time they are selected for apprenticeship.

Just give them extra starting XP and tell them that the only caveat is they must buy their way to Force Rating to 2.

We have a game where we started at Knight level EXP, but were also given Force rating of 2. With giving the force rating to the group I feel it opened the opportunity for the group to by more force powers to start since they could feel more confident they would work. We haven't made it far in the game, but I don't feel it causes any major unbalancing. As with the all games if you advance your players then you advance your villains so they stay a step ahead.

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

Jedi Padawans aren't starting-level characters. They are already highly trained, and relatively experienced, by the time they are selected for apprenticeship.

Just give them extra starting XP and tell them that the only caveat is they must buy their way to Force Rating to 2.

I hadn't wanted to lock in players to certain talents ahead of time, but that does seem like a good way to balance just handing power over. Although I'm not always the biggest fan of placing requirements on building of characters for people.

5 minutes ago, damnkid3 said:

We have a game where we started at Knight level EXP, but were also given Force rating of 2. With giving the force rating to the group I feel it opened the opportunity for the group to by more force powers to start since they could feel more confident they would work. We haven't made it far in the game, but I don't feel it causes any major unbalancing. As with the all games if you advance your players then you advance your villains so they stay a step ahead.

Cool, so at least I'm not the only person contemplating doing it.

I also ran a game where knight level XP + fr2 was involved. It made for a more interesting game imo, the players were less risk adverse.

That depends.

Are all the PCs going to be getting Force Rating 2?

If the answer is that it's only the "Jedi" of the group and any other Force user PCs are stuck at FR1, then yes it is wildly unbalancing.

It's also a bit unbalancing as it gives a leg up to those players who choose to start with one of the Lightsaber Form specs, as five of those don't offer a Force Rating boost at all, so rather than suffering the trade-off of getting access to the Lightsaber skill as a career skill and a variety of rather effective combat talents that center around lightsaber usage, by giving them a free boost to Force Rating you've just undercut one of the major trade-offs that come with starting with a LS Form spec; namely, that by taking that spec you're trading away a Force Rating boost to be highly capable with one of the more dangerous weapons in the game.

Plus, as awayputyrwpn said, Jedi Padawans generally aren't starting-tier PCs, as such characters are best emulated using Knight Level XP, so even with FR2 a starting PC isn't really going to "feel" like a Padawan from the media.

With all that being said, it's your game and if your players are on board with the change, then go for it. But even then, it's not really "balanced" as your PCs are skipping right past the "struggling to control the Force" stage of the development that game was intended to reflect.

57 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That depends.

Are all the PCs going to be getting Force Rating 2?

If the answer is that it's only the "Jedi" of the group and any other Force user PCs are stuck at FR1, then yes it is wildly unbalancing.

It's also a bit unbalancing as it gives a leg up to those players who choose to start with one of the Lightsaber Form specs, as five of those don't offer a Force Rating boost at all, so rather than suffering the trade-off of getting access to the Lightsaber skill as a career skill and a variety of rather effective combat talents that center around lightsaber usage, by giving them a free boost to Force Rating you've just undercut one of the major trade-offs that come with starting with a LS Form spec; namely, that by taking that spec you're trading away a Force Rating boost to be highly capable with one of the more dangerous weapons in the game.

Plus, as awayputyrwpn said, Jedi Padawans generally aren't starting-tier PCs, as such characters are best emulated using Knight Level XP, so even with FR2 a starting PC isn't really going to "feel" like a Padawan from the media.

With all that being said, it's your game and if your players are on board with the change, then go for it. But even then, it's not really "balanced" as your PCs are skipping right past the "struggling to control the Force" stage of the development that game was intended to reflect.

All PCs are Force sensitive Jedi, game is set in the Old Republic era, and I wanted to start the PCs at 18 rather than at 8 so having a higher than 1 Force rating made sense. They are starting with Knight level XP as well.

I would definitely do it, FR2 isn’t that massive, and if someone wants to be a Force wizard the fr4 from a single Specialisation will be fun.

18 hours ago, The Imperator said:

All PCs are Force sensitive Jedi, game is set in the Old Republic era, and I wanted to start the PCs at 18 rather than at 8 so having a higher than 1 Force rating made sense. They are starting with Knight level XP as well.

If it applies to everyone it doesn’t have to be problematic, but I’d just give them Knight level XP and let them figure out how they want to use it for themselves. If they increase their FR they’ll be more like space wizard Jedi, if they choose to focus their skills in other areas they’ll still be good characters as well. Bottom line, they won’t have to slum it with FR 1 if they don’t want to.

A question first:

Are you and your Player's experienced in the system?
FFGSW takes a few sessions to really grok the system and how to build dice pools, read the results, and understand what is and isn't a good enough Rank in an Attribute, Skill, or Power. Also one may not fully get the scale of the Ranks (the practical difference between ranks) and how the Skills, Powers, and Talents interact. For example I run a game and play in one, my current GM is new to the system and is having a hard time building opponent's difficulty levels alternatively making them too weak or too powerful and not fully utilizing opponents abilities. I also did this in the beginning and it takes several sessions of combat and skill challenges to learn this, both as a Player and as a GM. I bring this up because once you play the system a bit you learn how the dice work and where it's important to spend EXP and where it's just overkill. As a result you may want to give yourself and your players a few sessions to learn the system before they have a higher FP Rank and to start spending Knight Level +150 EXP all at once.

If you and your Player's are familiar with the system I see no issues with having them start with a Force Rating of 2. What I would suggest though is that rather than just giving them a FR 2 you have them pre -purchase that second FR using first available Force Rating in their Talent Tree(s). You don't require them to buy any of the intervening Talents at the start but they can't buy that same Rank a second time. This way they get that boost to use right away but don't upset the in-built balance of the system.

@FuriousGreg It's a PbP, and I have experience GMing EotE, as do most of the others involved, and this game was called out by me, when getting players, as being a way for all of us to get a better hang of Force stuff. Everyone involved also wants to play more Legends style Jedi, given I'm running an Old Republic game.

I did just have the final player I needed sign up, but he wants to play a droid knowing I gave extra Force ratings to the others, and he's fine with working something else out like a dedication talent

2 minutes ago, The Imperator said:

@FuriousGreg It's a PbP, and I have experience GMing EotE, as do most of the others involved, and this game was called out by me, when getting players, as being a way for all of us to get a better hang of Force stuff. Everyone involved also wants to play more Legends style Jedi, given I'm running an Old Republic game.

I did just have the final player I needed sign up, but he wants to play a droid knowing I gave extra Force ratings to the others, and he's fine with working something else out like a dedication talent

Sorry I didn't mean to assume one way or the other, as you know the system can take a bit getting used too if you come from a D20 kinda mindset and it's not always obvious when choosing where and when to advance Skills and such. Have fun with your game

13 minutes ago, FuriousGreg said:

Sorry I didn't mean to assume one way or the other, as you know the system can take a bit getting used too if you come from a D20 kinda mindset and it's not always obvious when choosing where and when to advance Skills and such. Have fun with your game

All good Was just explaining myself, lol.

On 4/14/2018 at 10:10 AM, The Imperator said:

I hadn't wanted to lock in players to certain talents ahead of time, but that does seem like a good way to balance just handing power over. Although I'm not always the biggest fan of placing requirements on building of characters for people.

Yeah, I tread lightly there myself, because I've had bad experiences as a player and as a GM when placing requirements. I try to make sure it's open ended, and that I'm giving something to them in return. It's not like you're taking their characters and messing with them; it's more like you're giving them a boon with a single stipulation on its usage.

OTOH, if the requirement is too heavy a concept, you could always just make it a strong suggestion

Try this: "I am giving you this extra XP so that you can get to FR 2 because that's the power level I'd like us to start with for this campaign. But, if there's a reason you think your padawan shouldn't yet be at FR 2, just let me know, and we will try and work out a good story together!"

50 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I am giving you this extra XP so that you can get to FR 2 because that's the power level I'd like us to start with for this campaign. But, if there's a reason you think your padawan shouldn't yet be at FR 2, just let me know, and we will try and work out a good story together!"

eg: “I want to play the Ron Weasley of the group”

but honestly it’s probably easier to just give the group all FR 2 to start for free. The one talent that could be broken by it is Saber Swarm, but they still have to roll 4 Advantage to make use of it, and you haven’t given them a full lightsaber

10 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

eg: “I want to play the Ron Weasley of the group”

Sure...or the droid that the OP mentioned a few posts ago! Nothing wrong with wanting to play a space muggle

That's why I like the XP solution so much. It gives freedom and flexibility, and then the GM doesn't have to try and figure out what his non-Force-sensitive PCs should get in return that's comparable. Also, as a player, I like the idea of starting with a fairly developed character—gimme the extra XP and let me flesh out the concept a little!

That being said, there's certainly nothing wrong with just handing everyone a free talent (FR 2 for the Padawans, maybe something bottom-tier for the non Force users).

Balance is subjective. You’re the GM. You just make things harder but at least they all get some cool toys to play with that are only really cool at higher FR.

I instituted a house full where Force Rating and Dedication are interchangeable. I’ve got players with FR 5-6 and I can’t still leave them for dead in a space station that’s been bombarded by a space fleet. Now their biggest concerns are rations and exposure to vacuum.

Just think outside the box and increase difficulty/dicepools. It’s easy enough. The point is for everyone to have fun, so do what you and your group think is fun.

What if one of them wanted to be FR3 and picked a build that would let them do so? This is, barely, possible with 150 XP's.

I suggest you adopt the optional rule "Learn as you Go" from one of the F&D supplemental books. It basically allows a player, to pick a talent, or Force Power, or Force Upgrade, (and skill ranks too) that they want to have access to now , but haven't paid for yet via the progression tree.

The tradeoff is two fold:

1. They have to regularly spend at least some of their earned XP each session (or however often you award it) towards actually buying down to the ability in question, how much is up to you the GM to determine.

2. There is almost always some level of increased difficulty to any actions/rolls made involving said power. This might be reflected by adding a setback (or more) to a dice roll, upgrading the difficulty (adding a red die) to the check. Adding a strain cost to any usage, automatically assigning a Conflict point (to show the struggle to control this ability that is technically beyond them), etc etc. Stuff like that.

This lets them gain access to an ability that they think is thematic (like having Force Rating 2, because their backstory is that they are much stronger in the Force for their age than is common), without just giving them something for free. They are expected to pay towards it on a regular basis, and the increased difficulty makes the power a potential liability.

I personally think this is the best and easiest way to allow this kind of rule breaking from a starting character. It doesn't make things too unbalanced, and has tangible cons to go along with the pros.

On 4/14/2018 at 8:15 AM, The Imperator said:

Would it be too unbalanced to start off Jedi Padawan PCs with an FR of 2 rate out of the gate? I, as the GM, and the PCs are all interested in a Jedi game that lets PCs be more like Padawans from the Clone Wars or other Old Republic material who were able to use lots of Force powers consistently, which a FR of 1 makes difficult.

Padawans should have at least 100 extra XP during character generation. The Padawan tree in Dawn of Rebellion is a good indicator of the kinds of training; completion of that tree would be 320 XP. (20 for the out-of-class tree, 300 for all slots in it.) most padawans should have 50 to 100 points spent on it, tho', and 50-100 on their first tree, and probably 50-100 on a saber tree (each class as one tree that focuses on 'saber).

Getting the second FR is only 75 XP to 100 XP. It's not unreasonable to start PC's off with 100 or even 200 post-racial points to spend.... and there are many good choices how to advance that that offer an additional FR.

Easiest way to establish this is give your group extra starting xp after creation with the caviat that they must purchase a force point in one of the trees it doesn't make them op from the start but does eliminate needing to bend rules to establish what you already want.

Give them access to the Padawan Suvivor talent tree as a bonus and give them some XP to spend on it. They can easily get a 2nd FR if they want it plus give some really foundational talents like Temple Training or Reflect.

Padawan Survivor is intended to represent the basic skills being atrophied by lack of use, and a life outside the "Jedi way", so it's probably not the best buy in.

There's a point at which people need to realise F&D doesn't offer Jedi so much as it offers Force users on a journey in a universe where the Jedi Order's gone. There is a beauty in that approach, and I really like how FFG have done it. But if you want to play the vapid, vacuous, one dimensional space ninjas from the prequels, then you're not going to make that happen here unless you overpower the PCs in the process.

If however you want something like the KOTOR or TOR MMO gave, where there's not really any major imbalance between Force- and non-Force users, then just start them as normal without even Knight level play. Rationalise it appropriately as the awareness of the Force's potential, and how to use/unlock it, is not as advanced as it will be by the time Lucas set fire to his legacy. It's true, and probably a design feature, that F&D characters start out less powerful relative to other games' characters, but their growth and capability over time is something pretty remarkable to play out and I wouldn't recommend taking that away from a player. I got a Shien Expert to the bottom of that tree plus enough of Shadow to get FR2, and seeing it evolve makes that guy my favourite character in this system.