Juke and Reinforce is obvious, but Frank put out an email saying you can Juke the Reinforce. I just want him to officially say "oops, nevermind".

Torani Jostero is super arguable. When are you considered defending? I'm actually split on this one.

To elaborate on the Nym question:

Scum Nym - If he flies over a cluster mine or proximity mine what does it mean to ignore the bomb? Does it explode and he ignores the effect? Does it not explode at all?

Rebel Nym - Once per turn he can prevent a bomb from detonating. If he lands on a cluster mine and stops it from detonating, when the next round starts does he have to use his ability to keep it from detonating as soon as the new round starts? Do you wait for a new trigger moment? Does trying to move off of it trigger it if only the original position of the base overlapped it? For asteroids it's written as starting on one means nothing, do we just use that for bombs as well?

Torani Jostero is not arguable at all. Torani takes place after attacking. You're no longer the target once the attack has happened. Ditto Juke/Reinforce, Frank having given a wrong answer about it notwithstanding.

Scum Nym got FAQed IIRC, to confirm that the bombs ignore him as well as him ignoring the bomb. Might just have been an email response though.

Rebel Nym: you wait for a new trigger point. Nothing says the bomb is triggered any other time than when the ship moves, so it's not. Otherwise, why is the end of the round the point where the bomb 'reactivates'? He only stops it once, and as soon as he's stopped it, he's still on it, so why wouldn't it just detonate immediately? Because it only detonates when it's triggered, and it only triggers when a template crosses it, or a ship base lands on it (or it's dropped on a ship base).

But honestly, whether or not they're clear, they could probably still do with clarifying further.

Or, you know, writing better.

That would be nice.

On 4/16/2018 at 9:26 AM, player2072913 said:

Stealing a list from reddit:

palp lw/frame

torani and jostero

flight assist - measure - have to?

hotshot copilot and tlt (both focus?)

juke and reinforce

cruise missile and jan ors (4 dice max - include jan ors?)

scum nym - ability before or after bomb explodes?

rebel nym - ability before or after he maneuvers?

tractor beam - template able to overlap obstacle

bomb effects generating attacks

Victor hel vs Tlt

Jake Farrel+ intensity (can you trigger intensity twice before flipping it?)

If a ship that's been coordinated an action can't perform it, (eg it tries to target lock but target isn't in range), what point does the coordinate get walked back to?

Chopper discarding things

Snap shot and blinded pilot

Ion torpedo

Palp/LWF was answered, you cannot cross pools but you can call Palp for either roll.

FAA you satisfy trigger conditions and then MAY boost/BR, measuring is independent of the action as written. Extremely clear.

Adding dice to Cruise Missile is limited only with respect to adding from maneuver speed, no different than prockets and agility. Jan is fine.

Tractor beam can put a ship anywhere it does not overlap a ship, including template overlaps.

So those four, at least, are fine.

On 4/16/2018 at 9:09 AM, thespaceinvader said:

Or the whole mess around the timing of destruction versus removal from the board.

What mess? The rules reference clarifies that a ship is destroyed when it is removed. PS kill simulfires are described in the rules reference as delaying the destruction of the ship, not the removal. Is there some other scenario I'm missing?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/261911-are-destroyed-and-removed-different/

Basically.

It never got a lot of traction because it's MAD fiddly and only really relevant to a couple of really cornery corner cases (mostly relating to Tel Trevura or Valen Rudor AND simultaneous fire interacting), and doesn't come up much in any relevant way in regular gameplay, but there's definitely an inconsistency in the core rules. One place says ships are destroyed at one point and removed later, the other says they're removed at the same point they're destroyed and vice versa.

E: and there's definitely room for RAW debate abotu whether the template for a tbeam boost/roll can overlap obstacles. It's not specifically excepted from the restriction against it in the rules, unlike say Collision Detector.

17 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/261911-are-destroyed-and-removed-different/

Basically.

It never got a lot of traction because it's MAD fiddly and only really relevant to a couple of really cornery corner cases (mostly relating to Tel Trevura or Valen Rudor AND simultaneous fire interacting), and doesn't come up much in any relevant way in regular gameplay, but there's definitely an inconsistency in the core rules. One place says ships are destroyed at one point and removed later, the other says they're removed at the same point they're destroyed and vice versa.

E: and there's definitely room for RAW debate abotu whether the template for a tbeam boost/roll can overlap obstacles. It's not specifically excepted from the restriction against it in the rules, unlike say Collision Detector.

Oh FFS, FFG. I see what you mean. Fel's Wrath and the FARR pretty clearly outline destruction as removal, but you're right that Tel's FAQ throws a huge wrench in that.

I can't possibly the only one that thought "FFGOP" was a parody account in the same vein as #DnDGOP* #GOPDnD, right?

EDIT: *Correction

5 hours ago, Killerardvark said:

Juke and Reinforce is obvious, but Frank put out an email saying you can Juke the Reinforce. I just want him to officially say "oops, nevermind".

To elaborate on the Nym question:

Scum Nym - If he flies over a cluster mine or proximity mine what does it mean to ignore the bomb? Does it explode and he ignores the effect? Does it not explode at all?

Rebel Nym - Once per turn he can prevent a bomb from detonating. If he lands on a cluster mine and stops it from detonating, when the next round starts does he have to use his ability to keep it from detonating as soon as the new round starts? Do you wait for a new trigger moment? Does trying to move off of it trigger it if only the original position of the base overlapped it? For asteroids it's written as starting on one means nothing, do we just use that for bombs as well?

Wasn't juke/reinforce just a rules change? That email was pre timing chart, so at the time based on the wording of reinforce you could juke reinforce.

Have fun with rebel nym, haha

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Wasn't juke/reinforce just a rules change? That email was pre timing chart, so at the time based on the wording of reinforce you could juke reinforce.

Have fun with rebel nym, haha

No, it was just wrong. I think he later reneged on social media but nowhere obvious.

It added an evade result, which has always happened in Defender Modifies Defence Dice unless specifically (C-3PO being the obvious one) stated otherwise. C-3PO confuses SO many things, because he's an exception but people treat him like he's the rule.

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No, it was just wrong. I think he later reneged on social media but nowhere obvious.

It added an evade result, which has always happened in Defender Modifies Defence Dice unless specifically (C-3PO being the obvious one) stated otherwise. C-3PO confuses SO many things, because he's an exception but people treat him like he's the rule.

Sure, but it adds an evade result specifically to your roll - as far as I know, it was the first thing to do this, and the only thing to do it for defense until... Rey? I wouldn't beat him up much over it, adding it to your roll muddies the timing a lot.

On 4/16/2018 at 6:26 AM, player2072913 said:

hotshot copilot and tlt (both focus?)

I assume someone is arguing that you have to spend two focuses or something? What's the rationale for that given that you don't loop back over the "declare target step" at all, which is the start of the range in which the FAQ defines the effect?

On 4/16/2018 at 6:26 AM, player2072913 said:

Ion torpedo

I assume this is the "does the defender get 1 or 2 ion tokens" question?

2 hours ago, Brunas said:

Sure, but it adds an evade result specifically to your roll - as far as I know, it was the first thing to do this, and the only thing to do it for defense until... Rey? I wouldn't beat him up much over it, adding it to your roll muddies the timing a lot.

Yeah... mandatory effects that happen "sometime during your modify step" (reinforce, concord dawn, hotshot, etc) are kind a mess from a design perspective. I'm not sure most of them being mandatory serves any purpose beyond creating complex rules interactions with stuff like accuracy corrector, omega leader, kestal and so on.

5 hours ago, Brunas said:

Sure, but it adds an evade result specifically to your roll - as far as I know, it was the first thing to do this, and the only thing to do it for defense until... Rey? I wouldn't beat him up much over it, adding it to your roll muddies the timing a lot.

Except evade tokens...

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Except evade tokens...

Wow, evade tokens do use the same wording. Newbie me missed that somehow, yeah there was no reason it should have ever worked, good call

22 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Torani Jostero is not arguable at all. Torani takes place after attacking. You're no longer the target once the attack has happened.

It's clearly super arguable considering there are at least a couple judges saying Jostero can't fire at the defender if it takes a damage from Torani. Brent Wong, Iain Hamp, Michael Jures, Ron Longhi, Vince Kingston, Dee Yun, and myself just to name a few scrubs. I'm not going to continue arguing it here as we'll have the official ruling at worlds I'm sure. I can see it going either way.

22 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Scum Nym got FAQed IIRC, to confirm that the bombs ignore him as well as him ignoring the bomb. Might just have been an email response though.

Not in the FAQ. In fact, the letters "nym" don't appear at all in the FAQ. A bit surprising now that we're a year in.

22 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Palp/LWF was answered, you cannot cross pools but you can call Palp for either roll.

FAA you satisfy trigger conditions and then MAY boost/BR, measuring is independent of the action as written. Extremely clear.

Adding dice to Cruise Missile is limited only with respect to adding from maneuver speed, no different than prockets and agility. Jan is fine.

Tractor beam can put a ship anywhere it does not overlap a ship, including template overlaps.

So those four, at least, are fine.

Palp/LWF, I asked Alex and Frank about this one and got opposite answers from each of them.

You all keep saying these are fine, clear, and obvious. They're not, they are super not. The fact that I disagree with most of what you two have said solidifies they are not even remotely close. I don't take these rules discussions lightly. If I thought it was an easy answer, I wouldn't be badgering FFG for official comment on them.

5 minutes ago, Killerardvark said:

Palp/LWF, I asked Alex and Frank about this one and got opposite answers from each of them.

You all keep saying these are fine, clear, and obvious. They're not, they are super not. The fact that I disagree with most of what you two have said solidifies they are not even remotely close. I don't take these rules discussions lightly. If I thought it was an easy answer, I wouldn't be badgering FFG for official comment on them.

It's literally in the FAQ: "After a ship rolls defense dice and before it resolves the effect of Lightweight Frame to roll an additional defense die, Palpatine can be used on the separate, additional defense die. Note that if Palpatine is used for the initial roll, he cannot affect the separate, additional defense die."

You can use it on the initial roll or on the additional die. It's explicitly laid out.

To be blunt, your disagreement isn't particularly relevant to whether or not these questions actually need to be answered. They're all quite clear given the wording of the cards, FAQ entries, and the rules of the game.

21 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

It's literally in the FAQ: "After a ship rolls defense dice and before it resolves the effect of Lightweight Frame to roll an additional defense die, Palpatine can be used on the separate, additional defense die. Note that if Palpatine is used for the initial roll, he cannot affect the separate, additional defense die."

You can use it on the initial roll or on the additional die. It's explicitly laid out.

To be blunt, your disagreement isn't particularly relevant to whether or not these questions actually need to be answered. They're all quite clear given the wording of the cards, FAQ entries, and the rules of the game.

The FAQ references calling palp on the first roll cannot affect the second roll. It does not say anything about calling it on the second LWF die and using it on the previous roll. This is where the argument occurs.

Considering the game designers don't even agree on this application, it's obvious that it's not obvious.

And while we're at it, for people going to worlds, it's very relevant how I feel about the rules considering I'll be judging them.

34 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

It's literally in the FAQ: "After a ship rolls defense dice and before it resolves the effect of Lightweight Frame to roll an additional defense die, Palpatine can be used on the separate, additional defense die. Note that if Palpatine is used for the initial roll, he cannot affect the separate, additional defense die."

You can use it on the initial roll or on the additional die. It's explicitly laid out.

To be blunt, your disagreement isn't particularly relevant to whether or not these questions actually need to be answered. They're all quite clear given the wording of the cards, FAQ entries, and the rules of the game.

20 minutes ago, Killerardvark said:

The FAQ references calling palp on the first roll cannot affect the second roll. It does not say anything about calling it on the second LWF die and using it on the previous roll. This is where the argument occurs.

Considering the game designers don't even agree on this application, it's obvious that it's not obvious.

And while we're at it, for people going to worlds, it's very relevant how I feel about the rules considering I'll be judging them.

It does, though. Its wording specifies using it on the LWF die, not after the LWF roll.

FAA is worded like any other rule/card that gives you a may if conditions are met. There is zero precedent to force players to boost or BR if they measure, and zero precedent for forcing them to declare a boost or BR before measuring. Rule accordingly.

Cruise Missile/Prockets resolve in step 2i of the attack timing chart, which is where the additional dice from CM/Prockets are added to their max. Jan Ors/Opportunist/etc. resolve in step 2ii, after the maximum dice limitation has resolved. They're separate steps with separate resolutions. Rule accordingly.

Tractor beam FAQ was amended and Obstacle rules FAQ were added at the same time to clarify what could and could not be done with a tractor beam movement. "After a ship’s base or maneuver template overlaps an obstacle, and the overlap is not from executing a maneuver, it suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:" Tractoring is literally the only thing that allows this to happen (SLAM is a maneuver and normal boost/BR by rule cannot), and this entry was made in conjunction with the FAQ process for tractoring. Edit: This is wrong. Collision Detector allows this as well. We do, however, have a ruling from TIE/x7 that maneuver template overlapping an obstacle is under the umbrella of a ship overlapping an obstacle, which is explicitly allowed. Rule accordingly.

What is your basis for disagreement?

11 minutes ago, Killerardvark said:

The FAQ references calling palp on the first roll cannot affect the second roll. It does not say anything about calling it on the second LWF die and using it on the previous roll. This is where the argument occurs.

Considering the game designers don't even agree on this application, it's obvious that it's not obvious.

And while we're at it, for people going to worlds, it's very relevant how I feel about the rules considering I'll be judging them.

What would you know? It’s not like you have been a judge for years, have most of the ffg staff on speed dial or judging worlds because... i am sorry what... oh he is all of those things. I am sorry killerardvark, i had no idea.

"After a ship rolls defense dice and before it resolves the effect of Lightweight Frame to roll an additional defense die, Palpatine can be used on the separate, additional defense die. Note that if Palpatine is used for the initial roll, he cannot affect the separate, additional defense die."

"Once per round, before a friendly ship rolls dice, you may name a die result. After rolling, you must change 1 of your dice results to the named result. That die result cannot be modified again."

RAW I would agree that you could modify any result in your results pool. Since the dice rolled prior to the effect of LWF are still in your results pool, they could be modified by Palp. That's I interpret it, rules as written.

rules as intended, I would say they are separate pools, therefore you could could palp one but not the others and vice versa.

4 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Palpatine can be used on the separate, additional defense die.

Quoted for emphasis. Use it on the roll or on the additional die. You can't call it on the roll and use it on the LWF die and you can't call it on the LWF roll and use it outside the LWF die.

Just now, RampancyTW said:

Quoted for emphasis. Use it on the roll or on the additional die. You can't call it on the roll and use it on the LWF die and you can't call it on the LWF roll and use it outside the LWF die.

the FAQ specifically states you cannot use palp on the additional die if you palp'd the first two. but it doesn't say the reverse. it just says results. the previously rolled die(dice) are also results are they not?