You know what? The cost argument and complaints about the “rapid fire release schedule” kind of boggles my mind.

If you are a competitive tournament player who has decided that it is necessary to get enough copies of every non-unique upgrade to run the maximum possible number in a standard list, that’s on you, not FFG.

If you want to build some niche list that uses combos that includes cards that are only in a few packs, that’s on you, not FFG.

For players like that, there is a secondary market or trading.

I do wish that FFG packed enough “fix” upgrades in their fix packs to run a full squad. They usually do, but *cough* hires guns *cough*. Also, come on, give us at least 3 flight assist astromechs in the renegades box!

What I cant get behind is the idea that this game is prohibitively expensive. I will admit that my perspective on this is skewed since I got in at Wave 3, so I have been able to slowly grow my collection over years. But non-epic expansions range from $15-$50 for this game, and with the more expensive ones you really only need one. If you buy 4 ghosts to run 4 attack shuttles, that’s on you, not FFG.

Over the current lifespan of the game, we are at 14 waves, one of which was totally pointless if you didn’t want to play scum, and if you did, only 4 ships prior to that wave mattered.

I get that it can be daunting as a new player to see all the stuff that’s out, but you don’t have to go from a core set to being able to build every competitive list in 6 weeks. Maybe slow grow seems more natural to me coming from 40k and games like that, I don’t know.

What I do know is that if a new player wants to try out a ship and I have that ship, I will lend it to them. If they want to try out some upgrades, I will lend them the cards. That allows a try before you buy atmosphere, and gets a new player into the game and into the community, creating a more consistent player (or customer) than someone who just tries to sprint through a purchase list.

It would also be remiss of me to not point out that for players truly on a tight budget, there are videos out there (notably the EXCELLENT work done by @Crabbok) that are great guides to what to buy.

Well said Father. Plus there are second hand groups. My 5 Kihraxzs cost £3 each, when the crackshot players wanted to recoup some of their outlay. About half of my collection is second hand.

And lending stuff is very common. For casual games, the only things you need are the dials and any suitable base token will do if you can't be bothered to find the right one or packed the wrong pilot.

Okay... The point is not the price of things. The problem is no skill synergy lists destroying the game. You focus on the wrong things.

It’s Star Wars, it’s tiny collectible space ships, you can’t go wrong buying what you like. I’m a completist so it’s bothering me that there’s still huge ships I haven’t purchased, but someday....someday.

The only expac I bought multiples of is GUNBOAT, and that’s to make up for nearly quarter century of there being no GUNBOAT toys/models/etc. So I got 5.

GUNBOAT.

usually I just buy one of each expac, so I have ended up with multiple ships of each type across multiple packs, save a few.

So does the Meta stop me from building janky lists? Of course not. Does my buying ‘strategy’ bring me a lot of wins? Nope. But I do have fun.

17 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Okay... The point is not the price of things. The problem is no skill synergy lists destroying the game. You focus on the wrong things.

No, YOU focus on the wrong things.

Its a business. Any gameplay issues are only a factor if they affect profit.

Bigger tournies, more movies...death throws obviously. I don’t know about you rats, but I am jumping! ??

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

No, YOU focus on the wrong things.

Its a business. Any gameplay issues are only a factor if they affect profit.

Are we players or stockholders?

Seriously man, where do you get theserandom answers... If it's profitable THEN IT MUST BE GOOD.... ? Just... what?

10 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Are we players or stockholders?

Seriously man, where do you get theserandom answers... If it's profitable THEN IT MUST BE GOOD.... ? Just... what?

WE are players. WE don't make decisions about FAQs.

FFG have completely different aims to you, completely different measures of success. And they ARE succeeding, which is why there won't be an FAQ. They don't care one iota that you're sulking about Miranda or TLT. They care that they're selling x-wing faster than ever and Organised Play is reflecting record levels of interest in the game.

Im sorry you're unhappy. It just means you're approaching the game the wrong way.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

WE are players. WE don't make decisions about FAQs.

FFG have completely different aims to you, completely different measures of success. And they ARE succeeding, which is why there won't be an FAQ. They don't care one iota that you're sulking about Miranda or TLT. They care that they're sellers by x-wing faster than ever and Organised Play is reflecting record levels of interest in the game.

Im sorry you're unhappy. It just means you're approaching the game the wrong way.

Okay... I'm gonna bring up an example. It's not to derail the conversation, but to illustrate my point.

In my country we just had an election. The government won, by a large margin. There were many reasons behind it, but even with record high participation numbers, they managed to get a 2/3-rds majority in the parliament. Now, why is this relevant? If you ask most people, the government isn't doing a good job. Our education, healthcare and infrastructure are rapidly deteriorating. The quality of life is dropping. Several hundred thousand people left the country due to this government.

But they won. I could sit here all day, and detail what they screwed up, (I won't, that's not the point. I purposefully left out mentioning the name of the country and actual policies. This is not the place) but at the end of the day, the election results reflect record levels of support for this government.

Now, why do I bring this up?

It's because if you ask the government, they will say they did a splendid job, and in one metric, they are objectively right... They did get re-elected, again, with a super majority.
If your metric is re-election, then the country and the government is doing just fine.

If your metric is quality of life, then they fail.

Both of these statements are true.

Now... Back to X-Wing.

We are players. This isn't a board meeting with executives. This is the community forum. For us.

I guess what I mean is... I don't care about re-elections. I care about quality of life. Because that is what important to me, and the community as players.

Is X-Wing failing in the financial sense? No. You are right. Is that relevant to the game being played? No, not at all.

I would rather have a fun game, than a game that is financially successful.

(Not that being fun or financially successful is mutually exclusive.. hence my saltiness)

I do have a fun game, because I choose not to be trapped by negativity. The only person who can make you enjoy playing x-wing... is you.

*Edgemode on*

Peace is a lie, there is only passion...

Being a crappy game never kept Monopoly from selling.

just saying

8 hours ago, Gilarius said:

Astech, are you being contrary just for the sake of being contrary? Borrowing stuff is absolutely fine and happens a lot. TOs themselves will lend stuff out.

And you missed my entire point of running the cartel marauders: they are a hard counter to what you are claiming is a terribly annoying list which you seem to be encountering all the time - a list I barely see and would love to face just so I can wreck it.

Yet, as you point out, it loses big time. Why is that? Could it be because Ghost/Fenn isn't actually that prevalent in the real world?

That's what I get for not proofreading a post. I meant to say 'proxy', not borrowing.

All you're saying is that you want your hard counter to face the one thing you designed it for. It's an even worse scenario then, because you're essentially paying for someone else who runs a specific list to lose. Of course, Final Form will shred 5 marauders to pieces before they even get a shot off.

5 marauders is an inherently flawed squadron. On the face of it it appears to be flexible, but it has almost no tools to handle Alpha Strikes, tanks like Dash/Asajj, bigger swarms and bombs. just because something is expensive doesn't make it good, but in X-wing, the best lists are universally expensive.

7 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

What I cant get behind is the idea that this game is prohibitively expensive. I will admit that my perspective on this is skewed since I got in at Wave 3, so I have been able to slowly grow my collection over years. But non-epic expansions range from $15-$50 for this game, and with the more expensive ones you really only need one. If you buy 4 ghosts to run 4 attack shuttles, that’s on you, not FFG.

What I do know is that if a new player wants to try out a ship and I have that ship, I will lend it to them. If they want to try out some upgrades, I will lend them the cards. That allows a try before you buy atmosphere, and gets a new player into the game and into the community, creating a more consistent player (or customer) than someone who just tries to sprint through a purchase list.

It would also be remiss of me to not point out that for players truly on a tight budget, there are videos out there (notably the EXCELLENT work done by @Crabbok) that are great guides to what to buy.

It's prohibitively expensive if you want to compete in tournaments. You can't have it both ways; either the game can handle creativity in tournaments or it forces players to choose between flying expensive lists and missing the cut to fly something actually enjoyable. Coming from a 40k backgroud, you're probably used to a different price point, but X-wing is an incredibly expensive game, with prohibitively large list costs if you actually want to have a chance at winning in tournaments. And because of power creep, those top lists only stay there for 4-6 months before you have to do it all over again.

Our FLGS just allows printouts for casual tournaments, and we'll all lend cards around for larger events, but it doesn't change the fact that, if everyone was only aiming to win, we'd all have to buy the necessary cards for a meta list.

Crabbok's videos are an excellent starting point, but assuming the player is already very talented, those purchases will, at best, lead to a 3-3 record in large tournaments. Sure, they're okay, but nowhere near the power curve.

6 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

WE are players. WE don't make decisions about FAQs.

FFG have completely different aims to you, completely different measures of success. And they ARE succeeding, which is why there won't be an FAQ. They don't care one iota that you're sulking about Miranda or TLT. They care that they're selling x-wing faster than ever and Organised Play is reflecting record levels of interest in the game.

Im sorry you're unhappy. It just means you're approaching the game the wrong way.

You're using a very short term view of FFG's profitability margin on the game. It's true that some tournaments are reaching record highs, but the board game industry as a whole is exploding, so that's actually to be expected. Instead, FFG is, in relation to overall industry growth losing players. The rate of increase of the rate of increase of players is dropping, and will soon be negative. At that point, the game goes into decline.

If X-wing were a man, he'd be in his mid-thirties, running each day, but eating junk and chain smoking. He's technically healthy, but not for long...

5 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I do have a fun game, because I choose not to be trapped by negativity. The only person who can make you enjoy playing x-wing... is you.

That sounds like an awful way to live. "My fiance was killed by a drunk driver. But at least that guy was alright"...

5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion...

Through nerfing my chains are broken?

3 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Being a crappy game never kept Monopoly from selling.

just saying

Yes, it really did. Monopoly was once a... monopoly. It had nearly undisputed control ofthe mass-manufactured games market because, in its time, it was the best game. That's what made it sell - that and the low price point. Contrast that to today, where Monopoly is more or less stagnating as more and more people find out "Oh, Monopoly sucks, I thought it was just board games in general".

Ten years from now, perhaps it won't even be on shelves in major retailers. Risk might still be there, because some of its core mechanics are very sound, but will again eventually be eclipsed.

43 minutes ago, Astech said:

Yes, it really did. Monopoly was once a... monopoly. It had nearly undisputed control ofthe mass-manufactured games market because, in its time, it was the best game. That's what made it sell - that and the low price point. Contrast that to today, where Monopoly is more or less stagnating as more and more people find out "Oh, Monopoly sucks, I thought it was just board games in general".

Ten years from now, perhaps it won't even be on shelves in major retailers. Risk might still be there, because some of its core mechanics are very sound, but will again eventually be eclipsed.

It was the best, because it was THE game.

If there were other miniature games based on star wars dogfights, I'd play them. I got into wargaming because of X-Wing... It wasn't because I knew the mechanics, or because I trusted FFG to deliver a good product. I would have started it if it was made by GW...

X-Wing has a monopoly on a niche market. It may not be the number 1 wargame solely because of that... but it is an important factor. I'd wager that most of the people here play because Star Wars space ships.

Since that's the reason, and there is only 1 place I can get it... I do. But I don't have a choice really.

Will I continue to buy ships? Yes. But it has flaws. These flaws don't stop me from buying the game, but that doesn't mean its doing great.

X-Wing is the best Star Wars based dogfighting game. That's not a big achievement, but I bet, if there was competition in that regard, it wouldn't be the number 1 wargame...

7 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The only person who can make you enjoy playing x-wing... is you.

Yep.

7 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I would rather have a fun game, than a game that is financially successful.

I hate Sport-Wing, but it drives the game. And a financially successful game = more official components. Sure, you can continue to play a dead game, and you can homebrew, but I will admit that the anticipation of "what's next?" is what keeps me engaged.

Someday FFG might look past the Single Reactor Ignition of 100/6, but trickle-down X-Wing will have to do for now. I have a blast with XWM, because (oddly) I ignore what makes it financially successful.

I don't want a cow in my backyard. But manure is useful.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

Yep.

I hate Sport-Wing, but it drives the game. And a financially successful game = more official components. Sure, you can continue to play a dead game, and you can homebrew, but I will admit that the anticipation of "what's next?" is what keeps me engaged.

Someday FFG might look past the Single Reactor Ignition of 100/6, but trickle-down X-Wing will have to do for now. I have a blast with XWM, because (oddly) I ignore what makes it financially successful.

Cows are gross. But the manure is useful.

The very next line of my post, is what I view as the solution to strive for.

It really doesn't matter to the business people what mechanics ships have. It is not a fact of life that a fun game cannot make money.

They could put in the effort, is what I am saying, without negatively affecting their sales. Quite the contrary.

Manure is useful... But we could try and make the cows feel nice while they are taking a cr@p.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

They could put in the effort, is what I am saying, without negatively affecting their sales.

I think their efforts are going elsewhere. Other games, and a playstyle that doesn't suit me +/- you.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

I think their efforts are going elsewhere. Other games, and a playstyle that doesn't suit me +/- you.

Yeah, well whatever they are doing, it doesn't matter... A boy can dream tho

8 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Yeah, well whatever they are doing, it doesn't matter... A boy can dream tho

Dreaming since 2013. . .

They make the ships, and I make the fun. The more ships there are, the more stories I can tell with the stuff they've made.

Homebrew is fun, but Official always carries more "fairness," in that my personal bias is not present on the table.

the people asking if its dying arent trying to kill the game, they are concerned about its decline and the mechanical state of the game. tournaments represent 1 in 1,000 players, and the reality is that many FLGS are dropping x-wing nights and a lot of people have moved on.

many of us have played other games like this and watched those games collapse and go out of production, so its a valid concern. dont forget that before x-wing was "star wars starship battles". that game is out of print

X-Wing is Alive and Well and Living In Paris.

I wouldn't consider myself familiar with the works of Jacques Brel, but my folks liked him, and the name stuck with me.

I think there is a pretty big difference between the amount of people that are voting with their mouth (complaining) and voting with their wallet (quitting the game or at least not buying new expansions or not attending tournaments).

Take for example the two guys who decided to play Loopin Chewie in the final of a major tournament. To anyone paying attention it's pretty clear these guys were pretty unhappy. On paper however, these guys bought a ton of X-wing and took part in.a major tournament, ergo no problem.

Legion is the new hotness at my LGS, so x wing has declined a bit, but I see it coming back.

2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

the people asking if its dying arent trying to kill the game, they are concerned about its decline and the mechanical state of the game. tournaments represent 1 in 1,000 players, and the reality is that many FLGS are dropping x-wing nights and a lot of people have moved on.

many of us have played other games like this and watched those games collapse and go out of production, so its a valid concern. dont forget that before x-wing was "star wars starship battles". that game is out of print

SWSB is really not a good analogy for X-Wing.

1 - AFAIK it was never very popular, even though it was a spin-off of the fairly popular Star Wars Miniatures. It was supposedly just a bad game (I never played it) and the minis were not display-quality like X-Wing's.

2 - It wasn't cancelled because it failed. It was cancelled because, at the time it came out, Wizards of the Coast were also doing their Star Wars Saga Edition RPG and Star Wars Miniatures. Then they also started work on 4th edition D&D and decided their flagship RPG needed more of their designers working on the project full-time, so they dropped their Star Wars licence to free them up.

51 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I think there is a pretty big difference between the amount of people that are voting with their mouth (complaining) and voting with their wallet (quitting the game or at least not buying new expansions or not attending tournaments).

Take for example the two guys who decided to play Loopin Chewie in the final of a major tournament. To anyone paying attention it's pretty clear these guys were pretty unhappy. On paper however, these guys bought a ton of X-wing and took part in.a major tournament, ergo no problem.

I, for one, have stopped buying X-wing for the past 4-5 months and swapped to building my Armada collection - a much more stable game.

You can also look at the bottom end of tournaments, where players bring a very cheap list (often under $150) and get burned out after the first few rounds due to massive losses. They might quit the game, or boycott XWM for 6 months as a protest. It happens, just not at the top tables where winning is the only priority.