14 hours ago, Arschbombe said:

They weren't DOA or garbage before LWF. I expected them to be, but I flew them anyway. I ran Quickdraw and Backdraft with Predator, Advanced Sensors, MKII engines, and the title along with a pair of Epsilon FOs.

They worked a lot better than I expected and I won so consistently that I ended up getting a third SF. They were deceptively maneuverable because all the greens made up for red and they could always get an action. Predator meant every attack had at least some modification.

I switched to LWF when the striker came out like everyone else, but I think the only reason the SF didn't get popular before that was because people decided it was garbage in advance and never gave it a chance. It's fairly common around here for people to assess things as garbage without actually testing them. It took a while Atanni mindlink to catch on too.

They weren't garbage, but they were DOA, since anything they could do JM5Ks could do better. Predator SFs might have reliable mods, but JM5Ks had nearly guaranteed 4-hit missiles that required only a focus to fire, backed up by 1.5 times the health, an unparalleled dial and better pilot abilities.

Triple jumps were unrivalled. Dengaroo was essentially QD on all the drugs at once, with infinite tokens. Paratanni was a super-efficient powerhouse. There's just no way SFs were worth bringing to the table when anything JM5K related was still an option. Frankly, everything was DOA until the JM5Ks were nerfed.

13 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Been using backdraft since before the x7 errata, alongside two x7s, and the little guy always pulled his weight. The SF statline is solid, the dial not nearly as bad as people made it out to be (mostly a product of "this baby can really move" memes), and the aux arc was quite useful

it simply wasn't accepted into the meta until x7/palp erratas and when prenerf Nym necessitated PS 11s. LWF is just a neat, over emphasized bonus (though it's nice for having a chance at dodging a tlt shot)

The dial is pretty decent; about a mish-mash of B-wing and X-wing traits, and the aux arc makes it definitively better as a jouster than B-wings. But it still wasn't as good as palp-backed aces even then. And Palp-backed aces reliably fell to good JM5K players.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

true but there has to be a counterbalance to Nerf Everything that Wins, which seems to be the tone set by FFG and is echoed throughout these forums. If these nerfs are a positive to the play experience then why are the podcast still complaining about the stale meta, why are there still need to nerf this and nerf that threads going around with just a different name in the blank? This isn't working, it hasn't worked before and it will still not work even after the top list in worlds gets nerfed right after.

Definition of insanity anyone?

The continuous cals for nerfs are mainly due to the fact that FFG sucks at them. They're late, ineffectual (looking at you JM5K), incomplete and short-sighted. People complained before the FAQs even became legal that stuff had been missed, and that a second FAQ was needed. FFG is insane for thinking its a sustainable practice, but players are of sound mind calling out FFG on their mistakes.

5 hours ago, Astech said:

The continuous cals for nerfs are mainly due to the fact that FFG sucks at them. They're late, ineffectual (looking at you JM5K), incomplete and short-sighted. People complained before the FAQs even became legal that stuff had been missed, and that a second FAQ was needed. FFG is insane for thinking its a sustainable practice, but players are of sound mind calling out FFG on their mistakes.

You want to know something funny? The "AT" in AT-4 isn't an abbreviation, it's a proper name because the weapon is 84mm. Do you want to know something funny and also relevant to the current conversation? The trend of "power level" FAQ/Errata, I.e. Not simply fixing broken elements or clarifying unclear interactions, but actively adjusting power levels hasn't worked for a single miniatures game.

Almost every miniatures game I currently play has moved to this model and I can't cite a single one that has benefited from superior balance as a result. On the contrary, Guild Ball is in the Farmerpocalypse and everyone is just in a holding pattern until the inevitable Nerf. War machine had the Ghost Fleet fiasco even with active CID betas with one list throwing up the best win rate in the games history.

Part of the problem is definitely accretion-related as there are just so many elements that a Nerf is probably just going to highlight more problems like playing wack-a-mole against cocaine fueled moles. The playtesting burden also increases exponentially the more elements the game has increasing the likelihood that things will be missed no matter how thorough devs are.

Another part of the problem might be related to what happened to electronic games. Constant patching has become super common in the current era, mostly because any issues that aren't game breaking can be patched out post release, so publishers put more pressure on devs to kick out unfinished products and fix it later. It definitely looks like we're seeing hints of this in miniatures gaming where companies are just looking to recoup the miniature development cost faster and figure out what they're supposed to do in game later although to what extent is hard to say.

TL:DR, the data is not indicating that more aggressive involvement by the design team on game balance will produce superior results.

14 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Almost every miniatures game I currently play has moved to this model and I can't cite a single one that has benefited from superior balance as a result. On the contrary, Guild Ball is in the Farmerpocalypse and everyone is just in a holding pattern until the inevitable Nerf. War machine had the Ghost Fleet fiasco even with active CID betas with one list throwing up the best win rate in the games history.

Part of the problem is definitely accretion-related as there are just so many elements that a Nerf is probably just going to highlight more problems like playing wack-a-mole against cocaine fueled moles. The playtesting burden also increases exponentially the more elements the game has increasing the likelihood that things will be missed no matter how thorough devs are.

Actively nerfing overpowered combos has always been effective. The trouble occurs when developers don't hit all of them at once, and instead inexplicably prolong the process over years. SW Armada has benefited greatly from the recent adjustment/nerf, just as one example of how to do it right.

The burden on playtesters is immense but, frankly, you'd have to be stupid to miss how wrong everything about the JM5K was. If playtesters are top players (which, in X-wing, they often are), then they're well aware of where each new card should be put for maximum effect from the first time they see them. In CCGs I can understand missing quite a few things, given the extraordinary amount of cards involved, but X-wing has maybe 1500 cards total 90% of which can be ignored.

16 minutes ago, Astech said:

but X-wing has maybe 1500 cards total 90% of which can be ignored.

So this is why the nerf cycle is ineffectual. 90% of them can be ignored, like Genius. That cards unplayable. Oh wait, Nym...and Trajectory simulator...well I guess that unplayable card got nerfed and forced a nerf on another card. 90% of the cards can be ignored, until they break the game. You can't just ignore them, but the more cards the game picks up, the higher likelihood that some obscure or previously unplayable card that you or your playtesters haven't considered will break the game.

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

So this is why the nerf cycle is ineffectual

If by that you mean a lack of rigorous testing and QA time and resources then... yes. Magic doesn't tend to have these problems (anymore, they certainly did way back in the day). In large part because it's got full time former pro players on staff ensuring that it doesn't happen. Whereas FFG has it's designers working several product lines at a time, farms large portions of testing out, and doesn't always listen to what testing feedback it does get.

7 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

So this is why the nerf cycle is ineffectual. 90% of them can be ignored, like Genius. That cards unplayable. Oh wait, Nym...and Trajectory simulator...well I guess that unplayable card got nerfed and forced a nerf on another card. 90% of the cards can be ignored, until they break the game. You can't just ignore them, but the more cards the game picks up, the higher likelihood that some obscure or previously unplayable card that you or your playtesters haven't considered will break the game.

Actually a good potion of cards can be ignored.

Take the Scurgg, can ignore all cannons, tech cards.

Doesn’t have to worry about Droid and crew combos as it can’t have both. Doesn’t have to worry about generic droids.

Most of the EPT’s can be given a once over just to make sure things are safe.

Genius being missed is a play tester/FFG thing.

You have to take the title to take Genius.

Genius directly interacts with bombs

The Havoc has 2 Bomb slots

Bomblet Generator had or was being tested at the same time.

The Genius interaction HAD to be looked into, and anyone competent and honest would of done so.

20 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

So this is why the nerf cycle is ineffectual. 90% of them can be ignored, like Genius. That cards unplayable. Oh wait, Nym...and Trajectory simulator...well I guess that unplayable card got nerfed and forced a nerf on another card. 90% of the cards can be ignored, until they break the game. You can't just ignore them, but the more cards the game picks up, the higher likelihood that some obscure or previously unplayable card that you or your playtesters haven't considered will break the game.

Genius was ignored until seconds after the Nym spoiler. Then tragedy simulator was, upon spoiling, immediately added to Nym. The idea is that running a quick check on each card like "Is Expose on Viktor Hel going to break the game?" takes half a second per card per pilot, so maybe a couple of days to be sure you're covered every card. Then it's a simple matter of combining the good cards for that ship to see if anything breaks.

Every single combo that this community has ever complained about was spotted within - at most - days of release. It's really not that hard.

4 hours ago, Astech said:

Every single combo that this community has ever complained about was spotted within - at most - days of release. It's really not that hard.

Not every combo. Asajj/Latts flew under the radar for quite a while since there was no point in flying anything scum other than but J5ks for a while. Both Attani and Dengaroo also took a while to materialize after the components were released. But yeah, several others have been spotted immediately and FFG should probably preview cards before printing 1000s of them for exactly that reason. Even if it does create a longer turn around time between reveal and release. Though there are obvious problems with that on embargoed stuff like the presumably forthcoming movie tie in ships since they can't release info early but need them on shelves near the release date.

53 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Not every combo. Asajj/Latts flew under the radar for quite a while since there was no point in flying anything scum other than but J5ks for a while. Both Attani and Dengaroo also took a while to materialize after the components were released. But yeah, several others have been spotted immediately and FFG should probably preview cards before printing 1000s of them for exactly that reason. Even if it does create a longer turn around time between reveal and release. Though there are obvious problems with that on embargoed stuff like the presumably forthcoming movie tie in ships since they can't release info early but need them on shelves near the release date.

5 hours ago, Astech said:

Every single combo that this community has ever complained about was spotted within - at most - days of release. It's really not that hard.

Asajj/Latts was obvious from the moment it was spoiled - they even came in the same pack. People flew it, then realised that the JM5K just did everything better. Strangely enough, all the movie tie-in ships are fine power wise. Poe, Quickdraw, Rey and so on are all praised ships.

Sooo.....maybe them coming out with a v2.0 for the game is a sign that maybe there IS an issue with the game?????

On 4/13/2018 at 12:20 PM, DXCrazytrain said:

We've had the 2 biggest regionals ever, Worlds has to use a lottery because so many people want to go, the Mouse is putting out yearly movies that give us new ships, and I don't know about your area but we've had a half dozen new or returning players in the last couple months.

So please, do not encourage the ones who say it's dying by responding to their clickbait threads. We don't need that kind of toxic crap around here and if we ignore it maybe it'll go away.

Now then, since we've established that Xwing has a future, what would you like to see in said future? Me, I would love to see Republic and Separtist factions added to the game.

tl:dr Don't encourage clickbait and tell me your vision of Xwing's future.

X-Wing 1.0 is dying.

Long live X-Wing 2.0.