It's still early in the meta I guess, but I just don't see the Waiqar unit answer to Uthuk yet.

Looking at the Wraiths with hope, but I'm not convinced that they are either. They sure seem to be able to get around the Uthuk, and so far so good. But will they have any staying power for their late strong attack (double attack but no guaranteed hits) to do any difference or will they be wiped before they even hit? I mean getting the ability to get the opponent to re-roll 1-2 attack dice will probably get rid of the double hits, but it's still quite high probability that the rerolls are still hits (50% for blue, 62,5% for red), so attacking at initiative 6 seems dangerous due to the 1 armor 2 hitpoints stats. And the weaker attack at initiative 4 is still on par with most units, thus will happen after the enemies when the other player acts first.

The revealed unique upgrade (3 points: choose one enemy unit before deployment, you may change one die for a whit one when the wraiths attack it) does not do it for me at all. The likelyhood of not attacking that enemy at all seems high, and a blue for a white increases the chance to hit by 25 percentage points, i.e. might not do anything. I'm really missing ranked discipline here for sure, especially for the 3x1.

I for one hope that the yet-to-be-revealed unique upgrade cards adds a hit or re-roll. But being a bit salty I sort of feel that it would need both to "bring it", and also slice the attack action initiatives by half

Every unit with unique upgrades so far has had a theme-based upgrade and a unit-mechanics-based upgrade. From my experience, players have gravitated towards the mechanics and not the theme based uniques for them all except Ardus.

EDIT: I double checked and some of the heroes tend to run the theme unique over the mechanics based one. I need to back off that statement a bit. It does hold for the very few non-hero uniques though.

So far, we have seen the theme-based unique for Wraiths. So the unrevealed will (likely) be a mechanics based one. My guess is reroll Natural Runes # of dice when attacking. I’ve also not guessed any of the uniques correctly, so yeah....

The thing is, pack your terrain deck with Rocks/Spikes Or other small pieces if you bring wraiths. They can easily jump that terrain to get at flanks. My impression is that wraiths are going to feel like trash when they don’t get flanks and be infuriating once they get a flank.

11 minutes ago, Church14 said:

My impression is that wraiths are going to feel like trash when they don’t get flanks and be infuriating once they get a flank.

Amen! Denying the opponent any rerolls on attack, and then rerolling one of their dice...that's sure to cripple any opposing unit, but may especially hurt Uthuk whose main game is "deal damage quickly." And if the enemy unit is down to a single rank, flanking isn't even all that necessary, though it definitely helps.

Also of note, they're quite cheap! Three threat for 24 points is pretty cool, especially considering they've got probably the best tools in the game for flank charges AND can attack twice sometimes. No reroll sucks, but that kind of damage potential has to be respected.

Against Uthuk in particular? I'm not sure, but they're a very interesting unit and I look forward to seeing them in action.

I look forward to the coming of the wraiths. They should make battles more interesting.

Profane banner on 2x1 reanimates in an Ardus build should help get wraiths where you want them. It’s an easy blocker unit to jump over.

Wraiths with give Waiqar players another tool to build their force. Wraiths aren't a hammer, they just enable you to approach the strategy for attack / defense in another and pretty creative way. Akin to crossbows for daqan, sure opened up and enabled some new synergy within a build.

Now just where is Boaty McBoatface?

1 hour ago, tgall said:

Wraiths with give Waiqar players another tool to build their force. Wraiths aren't a hammer, they just enable you to approach the strategy for attack / defense in another and pretty creative way. Akin to crossbows for daqan, sure opened up and enabled some new synergy within a build.

Now just where is Boaty McBoatface?

That is all well and good, and I really appreciate that against Daqan and Latari (which I'm already playing tight and even games against). But I currently feel that it is a hammer* (or shield?**) that is needed against Uthuk. I mean that if the enemy engages you immidiately, hits harder and spreads morale based disarray, how do you blight your way to a win when neither Carrion lancers or Reanimate archers*** can put on blight when engaged? I wonder how a technical non-hammer turns the tide?

*The Death Knights seem to be a good hammer against Daqan and Latari. But Ravos just eats them by dealing wounds instead of mortal strikes, and against the other units neither the dialed in mortal strike, reaping blade, or obcasium gauntlet does not seem to be enough hammer for the points.

**The Lancer is not a good enough shield. The Berzerkers (at least with the locally mandatory FL Thresher) can rally of any blight and then hit first and one shot a blocking lancer (only needs to roll one hit, dial a hit and sacrifice a figure). Ravos just eats it.

***I know that Close quarters targeting on Reanimate archers does this in theory, but then you can't have Combat ingenuity, which means an average of 1 blight, and that does not cut it against any of the uthuk units due to number of dice, brutal and/or dialed in hit.

The wraiths are unlikely to be a hammer. They're a light cavalry unit, without many attack dice, but with mobility that the Latari envy. March-4 plus reform (through terrain and enemy units, no less) gets them into attack position quickly. Or they can move and use an ability at the same time. The mobility they have is something that has been sorely lacking from the Waiqar.

What it looks like they're designed for, to me, is quick-flanking the units attacking your reanimatestar.

10 hours ago, Xelto said:

The wraiths are unlikely to be a hammer. They're a light cavalry unit, without many attack dice, but with mobility that the Latari envy. March-4 plus reform (through terrain and enemy units, no less) gets them into attack position quickly. Or they can move and use an ability at the same time. The mobility they have is something that has been sorely lacking from the Waiqar.

What it looks like they're designed for, to me, is quick-flanking the units attacking your reanimatestar.

Well, Death Knights is pretty mobile. Move at the latest initiative and then reform is nice. And with raven tabards they can make a speed 2 charge at initiative 2. I've had quite some success going elf-hunting with them, especially since they can stand up to Aliana

The Reanimate star you mention has some challanges against Uthuk and Latari. Big blobs don't fare well in morale tests, i.e against Uthuk. And the Reanimates is not likely catching any elf any time.* My point is that Wraiths + Reanimate star is probably not "bringing it"

*The Deathcaller combo is very snipable both by Deepwood archers and the kittens.

2 hours ago, Maktorius said:

The Deathcaller combo is very snipable both by Deepwood archers and the kittens

If you use the initiative 7 shift on the turns that you are close to moving into range 5 of the closest enemy units, you can just about guarantee one turn of the Deathcaller combo. Once you do that, you have options at lower iniative than archers attack (except for Kari, but you should target her with the Deathcaller in that case). You should get off at least two turns of Deathcaller. Past that... no promises.

17 hours ago, Maktorius said:

That is all well and good, and I really appreciate that against Daqan and Latari (which I'm already playing tight and even games against). But I currently feel that it is a hammer* (or shield?**) that is needed against Uthuk. I mean that if the enemy engages you immidiately, hits harder and spreads morale based disarray, how do you blight your way to a win when neither Carrion lancers or Reanimate archers*** can put on blight when engaged? I wonder how a technical non-hammer turns the tide?

*The Death Knights seem to be a good hammer against Daqan and Latari. But Ravos just eats them by dealing wounds instead of mortal strikes, and against the other units neither the dialed in mortal strike, reaping blade, or obcasium gauntlet does not seem to be enough hammer for the points.

**The Lancer is not a good enough shield. The Berzerkers (at least with the locally mandatory FL Thresher) can rally of any blight and then hit first and one shot a blocking lancer (only needs to roll one hit, dial a hit and sacrifice a figure). Ravos just eats it.

***I know that Close quarters targeting on Reanimate archers does this in theory, but then you can't have Combat ingenuity, which means an average of 1 blight, and that does not cut it against any of the uthuk units due to number of dice, brutal and/or dialed in hit.

Hm... a lot to unpack here

Waiqar are not intending to put spike-damage their opponents. They make it an awful slog and win through a slow grind. So Waiqar don’t bring the hammer as much as turn the opponent’s Anvil to jello. If you try to do the traditional Daqan approach of stack damage, then you will get smoked.

Technical non-Hammer turns the tide a bit because it’s really the first truly mobile Waiqar unit. Death Knights are nice, but Wraiths can actually really threaten an enemy’s backfield (or back). Death Inights are good flankers but aren’t quite fast enough to reliably get in the rear.

*Im seeing if I can do a decent write up on the idea of hard targets vs soft targets. But in a nutshell, Death Knights and Ravos are both intended to hunt high armor targets. Ravos is not a high armor target, so Death Knights are ill equipped for that matchup.

Weirdly, I’m beginning to think that a Reanimate blob with Cursed Signets is Ravos’ kryptonite. He can’t cause high severity panic tests and all his abilities are meh when surround by 1 armor, 1 health figures. They also stop the Threshers’ rerolls.

**Its a bit janky, but put the Lancer just a smidge farther than your Reanimates or Hammer. If the opponent out charges you, they hit the Lancer and wound or kill it. Then you have the potential counter charge with your hammer. You also mentioned dialing it a bit, which would be melee and not a charge. In that case, do an initiative 3 rally or reform and armor up. Sure, they still probably kill you, but now there is a extant chance of them not doing so and their Lethal sac becomes irrelevant for that moment.

***You mentioned this before. What is happening that your archers are getting engaged so early? I run mine at what I’d call danger close (sometimes touching the back of units in melee) and I’m not having them consistently getting charged. I would need to understand the difference before figuring out a way to help.

I enjoyed a 4x3 reanimate blob vs Latari with Cursed Signets. Scions melted, and the swing on turns was phenomenal for catching Wind Rune enabled units. I can see Ravos being upset getting caught up in the undead masses.

@Church14 we are not totally disagreeing on the details, but I would guess that you think that I am as overly negative about the Waiqar-Uthuk matchup as I think you are positive, and I understand that you are trying to help me out

I admit that I am a stubborn donkey, but if you please could share a short description of a game (or more if possible) with me where you did beat a (descent) Uthuk player with Waiqar when you have the opportunity, and how you did it, I will be very grateful and feel that I am justly proven to be too negative. As of now I just get hit by a train every time and don't see the light.

To answer your question regarding my reckless handling of my archers:

One match I ran a 3x2 RA with CQT and TS, backed up by Ankaur with FD and RM. The thought was that the CQT and the necromancy would eliminate the need for a blocker. Ravos ran right into the RA and smoked them quickly and then Ankaur the following couple of turns. He had the goblet so he was still in full health after that.

Last match I ran 2 2x1 RA with CI. The deployment gave me depth of 1 so I could not put a blocker in place. Ravos hit one of them turn 1 with IH. I managed to get a blocker (2x2 Lancer with wind rune) in front of the other and stopping the berzerkerstar. But Ravos turned after finishing the first RA and the smoked the second one from the side.

Note that my opponent only had a 197p army so he chose to be first player and deployment (i.e. terrain) to get the best setup.

I have been reluctant to put Ardus in front of the RA against Uthuk, as I have not been confident of his longevity as a blocker (especially against Ravos). Next time I will try 2 1x1 Lancers as double blockers and see if that can lock anything down. But it's not that easy to get the opponent's unit you want. I guess I could run lower than 197p to improve my setup odds, but I don't like it.

I was wondering if some of that was depth 1 deployment zones. There isnt a great way to deal with that. I guess maybe using the the 2-shift and side slipping the archers behind blockers that moved forward. Even that is iffy.

ill read through what you listed again when I have more time and let you know if anything occurs to me

I will freely admit I don’t have experience against Uthuk as Waiqar. I expect to gain some over the next 2 weeks. I’ll see if I can figure out strategies or if I’m going to feel the same way you do

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

I was wondering if some of that was depth 1 deployment zones. There isnt a great way to deal with that. I guess maybe using the the 2-shift and side slipping the archers behind blockers that moved forward. Even that is iffy.

ill read through what you listed again when I have more time and let you know if anything occurs to me

I will freely admit I don’t have experience against Uthuk as Waiqar. I expect to gain some over the next 2 weeks. I’ll see if I can figure out strategies or if I’m going to feel the same way you do

IIRC you're in Wi aren't you? I'm over in SE Minn .... we can solve this problem :-)

@Church14 I think I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit re: Waiqar mobility.

• Reanimate Archers don't move very well, but shifting 2 at 7 and rallying is a pretty strong option for a ranged unit. Reform at 2 also makes them nigh unflankable.
• Ardus's dial is pitiably bad, but I never see him locally so I don't really count him.
• Carrion Lancers! They have a pretty "normal" spread of movement and modifier options (including speed 4), but the initiative 3 speed 3 advance is hugely powerful and puts them in a good place mobility/flexibility-wise.
• Reanimates are pretty clumsy, no doubt, but cheap access to threat 3 combined with Aggressive Drummer does let them swing their large footprint around pretty well.
• Ankaur can go 6 in a turn, but his initiatives and options are mostly poor for a squishy ranged hero.
• Death Knights are quite delicious. Charge 2 at 3 is about as good as it gets without upgrades, blue reform modifier gives them great control. Bit slower in a straight line than most cav, but that's not usually TOO big a loss.
• Now wraiths! The free reform is amazing, and although I think moving through obstacles is going to be pretty niche, it's still useful.

8 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

@ Maktorius Would you mind posting your list? 2x2 Carrion Lancer seems very expensive for its output. My regular opponent uses 1x1 naked and 2x1 with Rank Discipline extensively and they are a terror. Also, notably re: Berserkers killing a Lancer in one attack, that relies on them dialing in the hit, which realistically means one turn to charge and another to attack. If a speedbump can hold them up that long, it's done an ok job. (Reform and +1 Defense is a good way to ensure the two turns)

About my list(s): I always try to change things up, so I don't have a set list. But if it is of any interest my latest one facing Uthuk was -

2 units of 2x2 Lancer with Windrune and sim orders. The purpouse was firstly to get blight on turn 1 by being able to shift forward then blight (and armor up on the modifier if needed). Without wind rune you are unlikely to blight something from your deployment position on initiative 6. And secondly on turn 2 to shift sideways, reform and then make the 3 move into the enemy flank, with the extra blight of course.

2 units of 2x1 Reanimate archers with Combat ingenuity. The purpouse was to pair them with the lancers so that firstly the 2 dice enemies (berzerkerstar and Spined threshers) get totally lockes down and can't attack at all and secondly making the lancers hit (mortal strike) on the surges.

1 unit of 3x2 Reanimates with Executioner and Blighted Vexilium Bearer. This unit would ideally one shot Ravos, but otherwise it destroys Spined threshers as they can't snipe the executioner with their 2 red dice.

Regarding berzerkers one shotting Lancers: When they run the FL spined thresher upgrade they only need 2 hits in total and then sacrifice one zerker. Thus they have the option to either rely on their dice and 2 rerolls, uaing the modifier for something else, or to dial in one hit and only need one dice. One blight does not cut it for this reason.

I'm going to second (er...third) the suggestion of 12 trays of Reanimates with Cursed Signets. It's good. When you get an opponent that specializes in dealing banes, it can get rocky, but usually the Reanimates just overwhelm with their sheer numbers.

5 hours ago, Aetheriac said:

I enjoyed a 4x3 reanimate blob vs Latari with Cursed Signets. Scions melted, and the swing on turns was phenomenal for catching Wind Rune enabled units. I can see Ravos being upset getting caught up in the undead masses.

What do you mean when you say "swing on turns"? Do you mean having a fast wheel by equipping Trumpets? Or do you mean swing and attack by equipping Aggressive Drummer? Both are good, in my opinion, though Aggressive Drummer is often snipe bait. If I go with Drummer, I usually also equip a banner or champion figure that makes my opponent sad they can't take out both at the same time.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

I'm going to second (er...third) the suggestion of 12 trays of Reanimates with Cursed Signets. It's good. When you get an opponent that specializes in dealing banes, it can get rocky, but usually the Reanimates just overwhelm with their sheer numbers.

What do you mean when you say "swing on turns"? Do you mean having a fast wheel by equipping Trumpets? Or do you mean swing and attack by equipping Aggressive Drummer? Both are good, in my opinion, though Aggressive Drummer is often snipe bait. If I go with Drummer, I usually also equip a banner or champion figure that makes my opponent sad they can't take out both at the same time.

My experience is with the following. Having little to snipe makes them even bruisier bruisers.

Toss in the extra White die for Ardus and get surge abilities to boot. While half the army, it is a really good half to have.

Reanimates [64] 4x3
Ardus IxErebus [23]
Front Line Carrion Lancer [5]
Cursed Signets [2]
Trumpets [2]
Lingering Dead [3]
Total Unit Cost: 99

Love it!

(Edit: I think we've talked about this before, but it's been a while.)

Funny how Cursed signets were pretty universally panned and now some players are finding a use. A sort of niche and not universally accepted use, but something.

Almost like FFG had a plan...

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Funny how Cursed signets were pretty universally panned and now some players are finding a use. A sort of niche and not universally accepted use, but something.

Almost like FFG had a plan...

When a card isn't great, but it's dirt cheap, that's good design. I almost wish Rank Discipline was a point or two more expensive just because it's so good.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

Funny how Cursed signets were pretty universally panned and now some players are finding a use. A sort of niche and not universally accepted use, but something.

Almost like FFG had a plan...

Just wait until people find a use for metered march!

11 hours ago, Aetheriac said:

My experience is with the following. Having little to snipe makes them even bruisier bruisers.

Toss in the extra White die for Ardus and get surge abilities to boot. While half the army, it is a really good half to have.

Reanimates [64] 4x3
Ardus IxErebus [23]
Front Line Carrion Lancer [5]
Cursed Signets [2]
Trumpets [2]
Lingering Dead [3]
Total Unit Cost: 99

After the discussion in this thread I can see the value in Cursed signets, Trumpets and Lingering dead for this unit. Though running Flank guards might be more efficient than Lingering dead in such a large unit against a melee only enemy, i.e. Uthuk, since you are likely to be outflanked.

But I'm struggling to quantify the value of choosing Ardus and the FL Lancer instead of a 2x1 Lancer or 2x1 Death knight with an upgrade as side dish.

The extra hits Ardus' white die brings is of course great for a 4 threat unit, but comparing the cost with Citadel weapons master makes me cringe. I know he's stronger, but I would argue that he's NOT 3 times stronger. Due to that the white die has a 33.3% chance to roll a surge and the reds 12.5%, my guess would be that neither Ardus' or FL Lancers' surge abilities will be hailing down on the enemy? And if you roll a surge on the first go, you probably should re-roll to try to get a hit?

Any how I will have to try the 4x3 Reanimates if you guys have had success with it against Uthuk.

Edit:

I'm also a bit ansy about putting half the army in one huge blob, it's prett bad if they get cut off by terrain or you don't catch anything. I've had a 3x3 chasing air a whole game once and haven't tried it since.

6 hours ago, Maktorius said:

After the discussion in this thread I can see the value in Cursed signets, Trumpets and Lingering dead for this unit. Though running Flank guards might be more efficient than Lingering dead in such a large unit against a melee only enemy, i.e. Uthuk, since you are likely to be outflanked.

But I'm struggling to quantify the value of choosing Ardus and the FL Lancer instead of a 2x1 Lancer or 2x1 Death knight with an upgrade as side dish.

The extra hits Ardus' white die brings is of course great for a 4 threat unit, but comparing the cost with Citadel weapons master makes me cringe. I know he's stronger, but I would argue that he's NOT 3 times stronger. Due to that the white die has a 33.3% chance to roll a surge and the reds 12.5%, my guess would be that neither Ardus' or FL Lancers' surge abilities will be hailing down on the enemy? And if you roll a surge on the first go, you probably should re-roll to try to get a hit?

Any how I will have to try the 4x3 Reanimates if you guys have had success with it against Uthuk.

Edit:

I'm also a bit ansy about putting half the army in one huge blob, it's prett bad if they get cut off by terrain or you don't catch anything. I've had a 3x3 chasing air a whole game once and haven't tried it since.

By no means have I spent much time driving a 4x3. I've run it once and was able to control the terrain. I only took small terrain with it as well, 4 of the rocky outcropping if I remember correctly. I am running it again soon though, and worry about terrain, a lot. Also, you are correct on flank guards, but the list is 199 as is and flank guards put me at 201. Pulling Ardus is an option, I am just trying to find a way to incorporate him in my armies where he doesn't fall before he does anything.