11 hours ago, Xelto said:

Just wait until people find a use for metered march!

We use in on Leonx here locally. Dialing in the late long march and a reform with this provides some nice placement and flank charge options.

19 hours ago, tgall said:

IIRC you're in Wi aren't you? I'm over in SE Minn .... we can solve this problem :-)

Madison, Wi. My issue getting games against Uthuk is that the other Uthuk player is a PhD student so sometimes just disappears for a while. I’m gonna start having other guys play my army and builds if they are willing so I can try counter-play.

21 hours ago, Maktorius said:

@Church14 we are not totally disagreeing on the details, but I would guess that you think that I am as overly negative about the Waiqar-Uthuk matchup as I think you are positive, and I understand that you are trying to help me out

Don’t get me wrong, I actually am concerned about balance with Uthuk. I just hear complaints about balance that seem inconsistent with my experiences.

3 hours ago, Aetheriac said:

By no means have I spent much time driving a 4x3. I've run it once and was able to control the terrain. I only took small terrain with it as well, 4 of the rocky outcropping if I remember correctly. I am running it again soon though, and worry about terrain, a lot.

I've played the 4x3 in 4 games, but only once with Cursed Signets. However, in two of the other games I wished I had Cursed Signets, so it ranks high for me. Yes, a 12-tray unit can be tough to maneuver, but in my 4 games I only got hung up on a friendly unit once, and almost got stuck on terrain, but I barely cleared it. 4 Rocky Outcrops is definitely the way to go.

About Ardus, I've been head simming, and I'm starting to really like the idea of the Ardus block supported by a 6-tray unit of Death Knights with The Duskblade, Combat Ingenuity, and Dispatch Runner. That 12-tray Reanimate block becomes a wrecking ball! If you get 2 hits and one surge, you've just insta-killed Ravos with 8 damage (2 x 4 threat, and he's now defense 1 borrowing Duskblade). It doesn't help much with Berserkers and Flesh Rippers, but there are plenty of other units in the game that fear this. Dispatch Runner let's the Reanimates hit twice, but they take a wound from Cursed Signets. I wish I could fit some Ankaur Maro action in there, but even dropping the Front Line Carrion Lancer only gets me to 30 points left.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

We use in on Leonx here locally. Dialing in the late long march and a reform with this provides some nice placement and flank charge options.

I hate those cats. The mind games are real once they're a centimeter away. Are they going to early charge before you charge them, or will they charge after you wiff with your melee attack? Aarrgghh!

8 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I've played the 4x3 in 4 games, but only once with Cursed Signets. However, in two of the other games I wished I had Cursed Signets, so it ranks high for me. Yes, a 12-tray unit can be tough to maneuver, but in my 4 games I only got hung up on a friendly unit once, and almost got stuck on terrain, but I barely cleared it. 4 Rocky Outcrops is definitely the way to go.

About Ardus, I've been head simming, and I'm starting to really like the idea of the Ardus block supported by a 6-tray unit of Death Knights with The Duskblade, Combat Ingenuity, and Dispatch Runner. That 12-tray Reanimate block becomes a wrecking ball! If you get 2 hits and one surge, you've just insta-killed Ravos with 8 damage (2 x 4 threat, and he's now defense 1 borrowing Duskblade). It doesn't help much with Berserkers and Flesh Rippers, but there are plenty of other units in the game that fear this. Dispatch Runner let's the Reanimates hit twice, but they take a wound from Cursed Signets. I wish I could fit some Ankaur Maro action in there, but even dropping the Front Line Carrion Lancer only gets me to 30 points left.

I hate those cats. The mind games are real once they're a centimeter away. Are they going to early charge before you charge them, or will they charge after you wiff with your melee attack? Aarrgghh!

One other thing to think about, the 4x3 block really can hit like a freight train. Theoretical max of 32 hits in this config on flank. While not guaranteed, that's a lot of potential damage flying around. Using MoI and you hit theoretical 40 hits. Ardus and the CL definitely add a bit to the mix for extra hard targets within the unit too.

On 4/12/2018 at 7:32 AM, Maktorius said:

One match I ran a 3x2 RA with CQT and TS, backed up by Ankaur with FD and RM. The thought was that the CQT and the necromancy would eliminate the need for a blocker. Ravos ran right into the RA and smoked them quickly and then Ankaur the following couple of turns. He had the goblet so he was still in full health after that.

I gotta say this confuses me... Not to sharpshoot your experience, or to undermine your point that Uthuk seem pretty overpowered (having my own issues with them locally)... but I don't see how Ravos can come out of this engagement with full health (if he comes out of it at all). At most he can regenerate 2 wounds with the goblet (one that it starts with and one he gets for destroying the RAs). He averages 6 damage per swing, 8 with hit dialed in, with a guaranteed extra wound at the end of the round and a likely extra from a surge. That's 7 - 10 RAs dead per swing (he can spike for 14, but requires a pretty unlikely roll of Hit-Hit, Hit-Hit, Hit-Surge). He cannot charge outside of 4, so he can't hit you twice in a row without you getting a shot in. If he hits you first, you should still do 6 - 9 damage to him with tempered steel (3 - 4 wounds). Then there is the question of Maro. Is he raising trays or shooting? If he's raising trays that means the RAs are getting an additional swing and it takes Ravos longer to cut through them. If he's shooting you can add minimum 1 wound to him per turn (this can get pretty swingy if there are 4 reds, with 3 wounds being a fairly likely result). With an average of 2 reds per round, he can pretty reliably put 2 wounds on Ravos per round. Even if things go very unlucky for you (bad rolls, no red runes, 1 blue rune, Ravos rolls well, etc.), it should take him 3 or more rounds to cut through the whole unit, and he should come out of the engagement with the archers with at least 3 wounds on him (5 dealt, 2 healed). If things go statistically average for you, the archers and Maro smoke Ravos and you likely have a few trays left (anyone feel free to check my math on this)

Again, not trying to say you are not telling the truth here... but I feel like there is more to this story. Was there another factor that allowed Ravos to come out of this engagement unscathed?

@QuickWhit I appreciate that you are taking your time to look into my conundrum. But the questions you have are on my answer to another side question, and I apologize but I'm not looking to get into the rabbit hole of exact details of my archers' whooping more than I've already described.

I have real trouble playing Waiqar against Uthuk, and so far no one has stepped forward and shared a different experience, so maybe my credibility is of little importance anyway.

To get back on topic

@Xelto provided this calculation in another thread for the Wraiths attack:

Wraiths have a red and a blue die, and you can expect them to regularly get a bonus die for flanking.

Each regular attack (not flanking, no bonuses from abilities) will do the following number of hits:
0: 19%
1: 44%
2: 31%
3: 6%
Average: 1.25 hits, or 4 damage if your threat is 3

If you add a red die for flanking, that becomes:
0: 7%
1: 26%
2: 36%
3: 23%
4: 7%
5: 1%
Average: 2 hits, or 6 damage if your threat is 3

So in the end, the odds are that you'll deal about 5+5 damage for a double attack, with a reasonably typical bell curve distribution of good and bad luck.

My point with this whole thread is that I fear that they seldomly will produce these numbers since it is simply going off after almost any other "counter" attack, which is most likely to cripple their threat*. But if the Waiqar could present a greater threat that the target has to attack first, that might allow it to happen. Though what would that be? Against Uthuk maybe an Executioner equipped unit (how does that list fare in a tournament where the other factions are represented though)? But that, and flanking in general, is more easily achieved if you at least have as many melee units fielded as the opposing player, otherwise it could be the Wraiths that get flanked (while flanking)! And that sort of creates a paradox with the Reanimate archers, whom does not like to wrestle.

So my fingers are still crossed that the unrevealed upgrade slices their attack initiatives by half (and adds a hit and a reroll)

Edit: or if the upgrade said to add one blight to enemies upon touch (like the Blighted Vexilium bearer) would work.

*I have previously (right or wrong) argued in this thread that the Wraiths ability to reroll the attackers' dice probably will get rid of any double hits, but the probability to still land a hit is not low. Might even be risky to reroll a (red) single hit since it might lead to a double!

3 hours ago, Maktorius said:

I h ave previously (right or wrong) argued in this thread that the Wraiths ability to reroll the attackers' dice probably will get rid of any double hits, but the probability to still land a hit is not low. Might even be risky to reroll a (red) single hit since it might lead to a double!

Don't underestimate the value of rerolling surges in the right situations. You may also see single hit + other symbols being rerolled regularly.

5 hours ago, Maktorius said:

My point with this whole thread is that I fear that they seldomly will produce these numbers since it is simply going off after almost any other "counter" attack, which is most likely to cripple their threat*. But if the Waiqar could present a greater threat that the target has to attack first, that might allow it to happen. Though what would that be? Against Uthuk maybe an Executioner equipped unit (how does that list fare in a tournament where the other factions are represented though)? But that, and flanking in general, is more easily achieved if you at least have as many melee units fielded as the opposing player, otherwise it could be the Wraiths that get flanked (while flanking)! And that sort of creates a paradox with the Reanimate archers, whom does not like to wrestle.

So my fingers are still crossed that the unrevealed upgrade slices their attack initiatives by half (and adds a hit and a reroll)

Edit: or if the upgrade said to add one blight to enemies upon touch (like the Blighted Vexilium bearer) would work.

*I have previously (right or wrong) argued in this thread that the Wraiths ability to reroll the attackers' dice probably will get rid of any double hits, but the probability to still land a hit is not low. Might even be risky to reroll a (red) single hit since it might lead to a double!

Double attack at 6 will likely be rare and situational, but the option exists at least for when you're attacking after your opponent ANYWAY.

As for dice:

Rerolling dice showing any hits has a pretty good expected outcome - sometimes you'll turn one hit into a double hit or give them an extra morale result, but just as often you'll make it blank.

16 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Double attack at 6 will likely be rare and situational, but the option exists at least for when you're attacking after your opponent ANYWAY.

As for dice:

Rerolling dice showing any hits has a pretty good expected outcome - sometimes you'll turn one hit into a double hit or give them an extra morale result, but just as often you'll make it blank.

Firstly, nice dice picture! I'll steal it and print it to use as quickchart when playing someone new

Secondly, I agree on your analysis, but may I ask you to add your opinion on if what you described feels like it "brings it" to the current possibilities of matchups? Will it make Waiqar great again?

2 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

Firstly, nice dice picture! I'll steal it and print it to use as quickchart when playing someone new

Secondly, I agree on your analysis, but may I ask you to add your opinion on if what you described feels like it "brings it" to the current possibilities of matchups? Will it make Waiqar great again?

Thanks! I refer to it all the time, great for comparing red vs blue (ESPECIALLY with mastercrafted weapons)

Will Wraiths bring it? Well, my Waiqar opponent is sure excited for them. Between them, worms, and death knights, I'd say Waiqar are the second most maneuverable (though still slowest) faction, so I expect to see lots of flank charges.

Gotta say, I've been proxying wraiths for a few months now, and while I love playing with them they have been a bit... underwhelming... As predicted in this thread, they are often knocked down in threat before getting off the double attack. They are particularly bad against armies with Kethra due to her unstable growths passive. If they swing twice at a unit with unstable growths they lose a full tray. This effectively limits your target choices with them.

I second the "awesome dice chart, I'll be stealing it" sentiment...

Anecdoteally, I have re-rolled a hit from Kari on a blue die in an attempt to keep my wraiths alive for one more round only to roll double surge... As soon as I saw the result I realized Maro was in range and promptly smashed my hand into my face... That was a bad game...

Sometimes it will be best to just take the hit...

1 hour ago, QuickWhit said:

Gotta say, I've been proxying wraiths for a few months now, and while I love playing with them they have been a bit... underwhelming... As predicted in this thread, they are often knocked down in threat before getting off the double attack. They are particularly bad against armies with Kethra due to her unstable growths passive. If they swing twice at a unit with unstable growths they lose a full tray. This effectively limits your target choices with them.

So many people seem to want wraiths to be the tortured remains of Daqan soldiers. They're not. They're the tortured remains of Latari soldiers.

They don't look like they're designed for toe-to-toe slugfests. With their speed, dial chart, and the ability to go through terrain and enemies (plus free reforms!), they're the guys you send deep to attack those pesky archers, or use to double-team an enemy already engaged with one of your units. They're the ones who can chase down Aliana when she has Ambush Predator, or be a speed bump for those slow but hard-hitting siege units, keeping them from getting to the main fight before it's over. They're light cavalry, not heavy cavalry. If you try to use them as heavy cavalry, they're probably going to be annihilated. Again.

What Xelto said.

If you want to attack twice, you should pick a target that either isn't going to hurt you much or cannot hurt you much. Archers are the very first thing that comes to mind.

No disagreement here. They are great against archers.

The problem is they are not a solution against Uthuk who have no archers and can run Kethra, invalidating 2 potential targets.

They will get gobbled up against Aliana though. She can out-maneuver them, out-charge them, then get a second attack off before they can retaliate. I use Death Knights for her...

9 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

They will get gobbled up against Aliana though. She can out-maneuver them, out-charge them, then get a second attack off before they can retaliate.

I'm curious as to why you think she can outmaneuver them. Looking at their dials:

• They have the same initiative early charges. Aliana has extra distance on the early ones.
• They have similar initiative late charges, with wraiths having a slightly longer charge on initiative 6, and Aliana being able to charge sideways or backwards.
• If the runes are good for her, Aliana can shift after her late march or reform, and is capable of turning on her basic shift2. Wraiths are capable of turn-march-reform. Both of them can do straight-reform or shift2-reform, on the same initiatives.
• Wraiths can go through enemy units or terrain.

Of all those abilities, I'm mostly going to discount the wraith's floating through obstacles and Aliana's shift-charge. It's hard to shift-charge into an opponent unless he forgot you can do it or is already pinned down, and it opens her up for flank attacks if she hits a unit's front side or the unit can reform easily. Likewise, moving through terrain or units is mostly going to happen situationally only. IE, both of them are nice abilities that are important to remember, but hard to make a game plan around.

The primary difference I see is that Aliana can do shifts after her late movements, and wraiths can free reform after any move. Both are nice abilities, but I give wraiths the advantage because you don't have to program in their choice, so it's easier to respond as the fog of war lifts.

9 hours ago, Xelto said:

I'm curious as to why you think she can outmaneuver them. Looking at their dials:

• They have the same initiative early charges. Aliana has extra distance on the early ones.
• They have similar initiative late charges, with wraiths having a slightly longer charge on initiative 6, and Aliana being able to charge sideways or backwards.
• If the runes are good for her, Aliana can shift after her late march or reform, and is capable of turning on her basic shift2. Wraiths are capable of turn-march-reform. Both of them can do straight-reform or shift2-reform, on the same initiatives.
• Wraiths can go through enemy units or terrain.

Of all those abilities, I'm mostly going to discount the wraith's floating through obstacles and Aliana's shift-charge. It's hard to shift-charge into an opponent unless he forgot you can do it or is already pinned down, and it opens her up for flank attacks if she hits a unit's front side or the unit can reform easily. Likewise, moving through terrain or units is mostly going to happen situationally only. IE, both of them are nice abilities that are important to remember, but hard to make a game plan around.

The primary difference I see is that Aliana can do shifts after her late movements, and wraiths can free reform after any move. Both are nice abilities, but I give wraiths the advantage because you don't have to program in their choice, so it's easier to respond as the fog of war lifts.

My experience has shown that she can. You are onto the reasons in your post. She matches their initiative in most movements, but bests them in distance on the early charges. She has a late(r) round double shift, which she can use to control the range. She can also shift 2 reform to make sure she is oriented correctly to deal with them. Basically, she can control the distance between the two units and ensure that the engagement happens either when she has initiative, or she is beyond range 1 but within range 2-3, meaning she will always get the first charge. The way she usually gets built in my group means she will hit with lethal 3+Round (probably 6-7 when this fight goes off). The wraiths are basically neutered when this goes off (8 damage will reduce them to 1 tray).

If you do manage to get to her flank, she can easily reform before you hit. Then if you miss on either of your dice you don't get rerolls. She will smoke most of your unit next round before you get another chance, leaving you at 1 threat and unable to do any damage without getting very lucky on your dice. You still lose this engagement, even if you manage to do a wound or two.

Your options are to build them as a 2x2 so they can tank the initial charge and still have threat 2 (this probably still loses, but may deal some damage in return due to lucky rolling), build them with raven tabards (pretty good choice, but may still fail to get the alpha off if you can't end a round at range 1, or when you have initiative, which is still difficult), or avoid her. I've had the most success with avoiding her. As noted earlier, they are great against archers. They need to go back line hunting and avoid fast moving high armor targets that they can whiff against even if they do get to swing.

On 4/11/2018 at 9:19 AM, Maktorius said:

It's still early in the meta I guess, but I just don't see the Waiqar unit answer to Uthuk yet.

Looking at the Wraiths with hope, but I'm not convinced that they are either.

Try this guy instead:

44 minutes ago, Xelto said:

Try this guy instead:

Nice! Very cool character! Need to give him some seious thought as he seems complex (in an interesting way). T hough I can't immidiatly see him toppling Uthuk. Any thoughts on that?

Edit: With that said, this guy is probably an auto-buy for me

2 hours ago, Maktorius said:

Nice! Very cool character! Need to give him some seious thought as he seems complex (in an interesting way). T hough I can't immidiatly see him toppling Uthuk. Any thoughts on that?

I went to do a detailed analysis of a 1v1 with him and Ravos, but gave up because there ended up being way too many variables. The important details, though, were: if you try to slog it out with Ravos, you're probably dead. However, you've got the ability to blip away from him (including behind him, where he can't insatiable hunger toward you), you've got the ability to start with a stun or immobilize on him, and you've got decent odds of getting a non-returned flank attack on him. Each of your attacks will average almost half of Ravos's total health in damage. And you're more maneuverable than him, so he has to be careful how he charges you.

Vorun'thul isn't going to auto-stop Ravos. But if you use him well, Ravos, in return, should not be able to auto-stomp you, either. A lot of it will come down to how you play him.

Of course, we haven't seen Vorun'thul's upgrades, either. So that may or may not help you in your fight with the Mobile Stomach.