12 hours ago, Cryix said:

I don't understand how you can say this. They killed A LOT of characters, both OT cannon and EU characters. Not even just characters but places. One could also argue that they assassinated the character of several characters as well. There's some good stuff in NJO but come on man. They killed chewie to give Han a story and they killed Anakin because "it was confusing." At least Luke died to save his friends and inspire the galaxy.

Luke died doing exactly nothing in TLJ. Literally, his force apparition could not affect anything, so he was doing nothing and just died. At best, he was a distraction, after spending the entire movie moping around for no **** reason. Our hero, ladies and gentlemen. Let's compare that, shall we?

Chewie died saving Anakin, providing a story arc for Han, and motivation for Anakin until Star by Star. While partially a "shock value" death, Chewie's death did serve the important function of showing that characters would and could die in the series. While that is something that many people hate, it didn't impact the story in a negative way. (Chewie is a difficult character to use in a book, and while it was possible to do so, it was rarely done well.) Anakin was killed during one of the most important missions of the war, and went out like a champ. His death would then go a long way to shape the character arcs of his siblings, his parents, and Tahiri. While I do wish Jacen had been the one killed on the mission, I will not complain considering how things went down in later stories.

Other characters were killed off, but rarely were they so casually discarded like Han and Luke were in the ST, and Leia will have to be in the next film. I'm trying to think of any character's death in the NJO that didn't serve a purpose, and I'm not thinking of one. Sure, the NJO had problems, but it is a thousand times better than what we've been given instead.

As long as they make it blue navy I'll be getting at least 2.

I'm hoping for Canon+System+Torp slots and bit more hull obviously.

Then it will be great If we get some decent Canon, System and Torp upgrades with it

9 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

The TIE heavy is a cool idea...wonder how many people will fly alongside QuickDraw...

Since QD is the best ship in the faction... I assume a lot of people

8 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

Luke died doing exactly nothing in TLJ. Literally, his force apparition could not affect anything, so he was doing nothing and just died. At best, he was a distraction

Since you obviously don't get that scene, let me explain why it makes sense.

I'm not saying it is great writing (it isn't) or that it was presented flawlessly in the movie (it wasn't), but all of this is there, and it remains true to Star Wars.... from a certain point of view.

if you actually let go of your expectations, and... you know TRY to enjoy the movie, you might discover some things.

Luke did what he did for 2 people. Rey and Kylo. Nobody else matters.

So, let's examine, what did he do? He performed a great feat of power for these people. Why? To scare and bait Kylo. The dark side, especially within Ben, is chaotic. He struggles with the Light. Luke pushed that even further. Kylo was completely unhinged. Why is that important? Because now the darkness inside him is unstable.
If Luke actually goes there, and sacrifices himself in a badass duel, Kylo gets what he wants. He becomes the master. This was denied by Luke. Also... Luke didn't want to kill Ben. The quote "No one's ever really gone" wasn't about Han. That was a misdirection. It was about Ben. And Luke did what he had to do, so that Rey, the new hero, can finish what he started. Kylo couldn't embrace the darkness by killing his old master, and didn't get closure. Now Snoke's gone, its only him. And he can be saved.

Now, the other reason he did it, was to inspire Rey, and the galaxy. He did something impossible, after years of doing nothing. He showed Rey what is possible with the Force... what power she has, and how should he use it. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

It was Luke's lesson to Rey about sacrifice and power... A show of direct power would have planted the wrong idea in Rey's head. She was looking for a great warrior.. BUT Luke showed her that it is not what the Force is about. "Wars not make one great"


So yeah. That's the point of that scene, if you actually watch the films

That's some pretty amazing headcanon you've got there @Commander Kaine.

6 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Since you obviously don't get that scene, let me explain why it makes sense.

It was Luke's lesson to Rey about sacrifice and power... A show of direct power would have planted the wrong idea in Rey's head. She was looking for a great warrior.. BUT Luke showed her that it is not what the Force is about. "Wars not make one great"

So yeah. That's the point of that scene, if you actually watch the films

"We shouldn't actually stop the bad guys, no, that's giving them what they want. We should just make them look silly. Then I'll die. That's a true lesson for a Jedi!" --Jake Skywalker

No thanks.

Still doesn't make a lick of sense if you consider the other options Luke had available to him, or what his actual character could/should have been doing. You can try to explain it any way you like, but I still think its a terrible movie that butchered one of the greatest characters in Star Wars, all so Rey can look good. Yoda not directly confronting Vader/Palps makes sense because he knew he couldn't. He had tried and failed at doing just that. Luke was the one that could.

Just now, Alpha17 said:

"We shouldn't actually stop the bad guys, no, that's giving them what they want. We should just make them look silly. Then I'll die. That's a true lesson for a Jedi!" --Jake Skywalker

No thanks.

Still doesn't make a lick of sense if you consider the other options Luke had available to him, or what his actual character could/should have been doing. You can try to explain it any way you like, but I still think its a terrible movie that butchered one of the greatest characters in Star Wars, all so Rey can look good. Yoda not directly confronting Vader/Palps makes sense because he knew he couldn't. He had tried and failed at doing just that. Luke was the one that could.

They couldn't actually stop the bad guys... that was the whole stupid point of this movie. That the First Order (for some strange reason, ask J.J.) is all powerful.

so it's more like "I can't stop the bad guys, no matter what I do, plus I should teach this lost girl to find the right path, plus I should really do something about my poor nephew that is evil because of me"

5 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

They couldn't actually stop the bad guys... that was the whole stupid point of this movie. That the First Order (for some strange reason, ask J.J.) is all powerful.

so it's more like "I can't stop the bad guys, no matter what I do, plus I should teach this lost girl to find the right path, plus I should really do something about my poor nephew that is evil because of me"

And I, unsurprisingly, disagree with that. The FO is infinitely stupid, not infinitely powerful. From what we've seen, they could easily be defeated if anybody actually bothered trying. Poe took out a dreadnaught with a few bombers made out of gasoline soaked paper mache, and Starkiller base was easily taken out in the last movie. If Luke bothered to try, he very well could have delivered them a crippling blow. After losing Snoke, Luke taking out or capturing Kylo and Hux would have decapitated the leadership of the FO, and at the very least bought the Galaxy more time to counter their apparent invasion. Granted, this is act two in a three act play, but at the very least, Luke could have done something worthwhile.

It's sad, but the How It should have ended crowd did a whole lot better job than Rian Johnson/Disney.

22 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

It's sad, but the How It should have ended crowd did a whole lot better job than Rian Johnson/Disney.

Ok, that was pretty awesome

34 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

And I, unsurprisingly, disagree with that. The FO is infinitely stupid, not infinitely powerful. From what we've seen, they could easily be defeated if anybody actually bothered trying. Poe took out a dreadnaught with a few bombers made out of gasoline soaked paper mache, and Starkiller base was easily taken out in the last movie. If Luke bothered to try, he very well could have delivered them a crippling blow. After losing Snoke, Luke taking out or capturing Kylo and Hux would have decapitated the leadership of the FO, and at the very least bought the Galaxy more time to counter their apparent invasion. Granted, this is act two in a three act play, but at the very least, Luke could have done something worthwhile.

It's sad, but the How It should have ended crowd did a whole lot better job than Rian Johnson/Disney.

1. Jedi are not warriors. If they were in the past, they regretted it. If you think that a Jedi would do that, you don't know what jedi do.

2. In this franchise, the villains are always stupid. Don't try to tell me this is something new. They built a second DeathStar ffs.

3. Obi-Wan could've defeated Vader. He did that once already. Yet he didn't. Why? Because he wanted to show Luke that Death, is not really the end of all things. It was a lesson (it's like poetry... it rhymes)

But, let me stress this again, because you don't seem to understand, despite being a core message of the franchise... THE JEDI ARE NOT WARRIORS

All the greatest victories in the OT came from non-violence.

Luke blows up a deathstar with violence, what happens? Nothing, they build a second one, and go super hardcore on the rebels.

Luke rushes to defeat Vader, what happens? Han gets captured, Luke's hand is cut off.

Luke refuses to kill his Father, what happens? The rule of the Sith over the Galaxy ends.

If you honestly, in the depths of your heart, believe that Last Jedi would have been great if Luke does some powerful force magic to defeat the evil empire, you really don't understand the core message.

THAT would have betrayed his character. Because that is not the Jedi way. It's what Yoda has been trying to teach Luke on Dagobah before he rushed away to get in trouble. Could he defeat Kylo? Maybe.. but he doubts it.

But you know... if 8 movies didn't hammer that point through your head, I'm not gonna in a few comments. You believe what you want. If you want to have a fan service epic showdown filled with visual effects, HISHE got your back. If you believe that a Jedi true to his path would use deadly force to overthrow a government, you are wrong. That is the failure of the Jedi Order in the prequels. It didn't work out so well.

I really don't know how else to tell you this. Imagine, if you will, a conversation with Yoda on Dagobah. Do you think he would be in favor of your ideas of doing an all out attack in that situation? Because I don't think so.

18 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

All the greatest victories in the OT came from non-violence.

And that's where we will have to disagree. Because honestly, that's ridiculously stupid. I really, really am trying to understand how you can think that, and it's not working. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm afraid if we continue this, insults will start to fly.

ANH: Luke blows up the Death Star, and saves his friends and the Rebellion as a whole

ESB: Luke confronts Vader, learns parentage, and while losing the duel, is set on the path that ultimately wins.

RotJ: Luke frees Han by killing a lot of bad guys, Luke turns Vader back to the light side by beating him, then sparing him. Anakin saves Luke by killing Palps. Oh, then the Rebels win by blowing up the Death Star again, freeing (or at least setting the stage for freedom in) the Galaxy.

Notice the violence? Because, if not, you're not watching the same movies I am. The ones I'm watching are called "Star Wars," not, Star Nonviolence is the key to beating evil."

As for the Yoda "war not make one great" line, you realize that's when he was playing Luke for a fool, right? And that at no point does Yoda ever say that fighting is bad, or should be avoided at all costs. What did he say when Luke wanted to rush off and fight Vader in Empire? Was it that fighting was bad, and wouldn't accomplish anything? No, it was that "only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor." I'm sure, in your little head canon, Yoda was talking about giving Vader and Sparky a hug. The Jedi of the prequel era didn't fail. They trained and readied their secret weapon, Luke, and he accomplished his task amazingly well, not just ending the Sith, but redeeming Vader.

EDIT: I guess I said I was done, then went on a rant. Sorry about that. Was initially going to be a shorter reply that just kinda grew into a monster. Feel free to respond, but I very much doubt either of us will be changing the other's mind about anything.

1 minute ago, Alpha17 said:

And that's where we will have to disagree. Because honestly, that's ridiculously stupid. I really, really am trying to understand how you can think that, and it's not working. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm afraid if we continue this, insults will start to fly.

ANH: Luke blows up the Death Star, and saves his friends and the Rebellion as a whole

ESB: Luke confronts Vader, learns parentage, and while losing the duel, is set on the path that ultimately wins.

RotJ: Luke frees Han by killing a lot of bad guys, Luke turns Vader back to the light side by beating him, then sparing him. Anakin saves Luke by killing Palps. Oh, then the Rebels win by blowing up the Death Star again, freeing (or at least setting the stage for freedom in) the Galaxy.

Notice the violence? Because, if not, you're not watching the same movies I am. The ones I'm watching are called "Star Wars," not, Star Nonviolence is the key to beating evil."

As for the Yoda "war not make one great" line, you realize that's when he was playing Luke for a fool, right? And that at no point does Yoda ever say that fighting is bad, or should be avoided at all costs. What did he say when Luke wanted to rush off and fight Vader in Empire? Was it that fighting was bad, and wouldn't accomplish anything? No, it was that "only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor." I'm sure, in your little head canon, Yoda was talking about giving Vader and Sparky a hug. The Jedi of the prequel era didn't fail. They trained and readied their secret weapon, Luke, and he accomplished his task amazingly well, not just ending the Sith, but redeeming Vader.

So in your mind... The jedi had a plan which involved everyone dying, except for 2 members, to "train" 1 person, which mostly involved leaving them alone for 19 years, then hastily telling him a few wise sentences, in order to prepare him to defeat the best warrior in the world, who mostly single handedly destroyed their order of jedi, who trained all their lives. Not once they discuss duelling techniques, or force powers to use in combat, while they constantly preach about sacrifice and letting things go, then one of them sacrifices themselves without trying to damage Vader, despite the very same jedi defeating Vader earlier. Luke then, defeats Vader with basically telling him "You might as well kill me, because I'm not gonna try", throwing away his weapon, and letting the Emperor do what he will...

I don't know what to tell you. If you think this is a message that promotes violence, you just don't understand movies.

What would constitute, in your view, as a statement against violence? Refusing to fight Vader, in my view is. If Luke fights Vader for real, you know what happens? he turns to the Dark Side... that's in the movie. You know, when Vader's hand is cut off, and Luke realises that he is turning into the same thing, in that very moment.

What do you think that scene is about? That is the crux of the saga. The most important scene. What do you think is the message. I'm really interested. If you answer nothing else from this post, just one thing, let it be this.

What do you think is the core message of that scene?

Also... You say "ESB: Luke confronts Vader, learns parentage, and while losing the duel, is set on the path that ultimately wins."
... are you serious now? You can literally pick any event in any of the movies, and say "this sets So and So on the path that ultimately wins". Uncle Owen being an overprotective guardian leads to Luke destroying the empire, so it must have been good?

You know who is a fully trained Jedi Knight? Obi-Wan. He could have defeated Vader.. Or at least he could have tried... he didn't. How does that make sense in your own explanation?

Is there war in Star Wars... yes? Does that make it a pro-violence movie? No. Why would you think that? That's reductive reasoning, and a fallacy. Its still a pulp adventure movie about space wizards... Are there not war movies that are.. you know, against war? Yes there are. Many. Having violence in a movie, does not mean it promotes violence...

5 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

And I, unsurprisingly, disagree with that. The FO is infinitely stupid, not infinitely powerful. From what we've seen, they could easily be defeated if anybody actually bothered trying. Poe took out a dreadnaught with a few bombers made out of gasoline soaked paper mache, and Starkiller base was easily taken out in the last movie. If Luke bothered to try, he very well could have delivered them a crippling blow. After losing Snoke, Luke taking out or capturing Kylo and Hux would have decapitated the leadership of the FO, and at the very least bought the Galaxy more time to counter their apparent invasion. Granted, this is act two in a three act play, but at the very least, Luke could have done something worthwhile.

It's sad, but the How It should have ended crowd did a whole lot better job than Rian Johnson/Disney.

You...

You don't realize HISHE's thing was satire do you?

Oh no.

9 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

You...

You don't realize HISHE's thing was satire do you?

Oh no.

Yeah, actually I do. It's pretty bad when the satirical videos that usually lack nuance or understanding of a film or franchise do a better job than the actual movies they're ripping apart. This HISHE was one of the few I've seen in the last few years that actually was funny; most are pretty dull. Screen Junkies Serious Questions video on TLJ also shows more thought and care about the film than its creators.

And since I guess I didn't make it obvious enough in my previous post, this discussion is pointless, and nobody's opinions will be changed. We've already completely derailed this thread, so it's probably time to stop before it ends up in Off-Topic. TLJ is bad enough I don't even enjoy debating it; my initial response was a reaction to more of the NJO hate that seems popular on this forum. If you enjoyed TLJ and hated the NJO, good for you, just don't think your opinions are universal.

And with that, I'm done responding.

Call me when u start talking about the topic.

On 4/10/2018 at 5:02 PM, Indy_com said:

A SOLO wave has at least 2 Imperial ships, those being the Heavy TIE Fighter (TIE/hv from here on) and the Imperial AT-Hauler.

Boo. I actually thought the Gozanti made a pretty good AT hauler.

And the Zeta class Cargo shuttle from Rogue One would have been even better.

5 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

If you enjoyed TLJ and hated the NJO, good for you, just don't think your opinions are universal.

Oh believe me, a whiny internet ensures we all know that.

1 hour ago, DarthEnderX said:

Boo. I actually thought the Gozanti made a pretty good AT hauler.

And the Zeta class Cargo shuttle from Rogue One would have been even better.

Well hey, look at it this way. AT-Hauler might just be part of the AT series but a hauler. If not that, then well... I figure there's a great reason we never see them.

So... About the Heavy Tie....

4 Hull? Or 5? I doubt it will have shields. And not more hull than a bomber.

3 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Boo. I actually thought the Gozanti made a pretty good AT hauler.

And the Zeta class Cargo shuttle from Rogue One would have been even better.

its a cargo hauler based on the AT-series of walkers. I assume. Probably not a hauler that hauls AT-series walkers exclusively. And it appears to be a vehicle on Kessel, so I’m guessing it hauls spice, and might not even be spaceworthy. Dunno, haven’t seen the movie yet, I guess I’ve been busy.

oh wait, it’s not out yet.

****.

1 hour ago, Stinger07 said:

So... About the Heavy Tie....

4 Hull? Or 5? I doubt it will have shields. And not more hull than a bomber.

Either 4 hull or 3 hull 1 shield. Or not. 3 attack dice. 2 agi. 16 pts ps 2. Ok to good dial with a bit of asymmetry thrown in.

My guess would be:

2 attack

4 hull

3 agility

0 shields

targetlock, focus, barelroll, evade

cannon-slot

dial like a tie-fighter perhaps with asymetric colors (green/red) possibly sloops/talons.

15pt for the cheapest

(basically a scyk w heavy cannon title -1 as a shield gets converted to hull)

1 hour ago, RedHotDice said:

My guess would be:

2 attack

4 hull

3 agility

0 shields

targetlock, focus, barelroll, evade

cannon-slot

dial like a tie-fighter perhaps with asymetric colors (green/red) possibly sloops/talons.

15pt for the cheapest

(basically a scyk w heavy cannon title -1 as a shield gets converted to hull)

Hull to shield isn't worth 1 point, but if it's PS 1 then I can see that being about right, I like a bit of asymmetry to further differentiate it otherwise it's a bit lackluster, especially when Starwings are great cannon carriers.

Getting back on topic:

https://www.starwars.com/databank/imperial-heavy-tie-fighter

1 hour ago, markcsoul said:

Getting back on topic:

https://www.starwars.com/databank/imperial-heavy-tie-fighter

Hmmm - the TIE rhythm-n-blues...

4 hull (or perhaps even 5 - but hopefully not)

Possibly just a 3 primary and no cannon slot (though I am still hoping for a bullseye arc instead)

On a /ln dial with a red 5-straight and no 3-K (plus white 1 banks perhaps)

...?

- - - - -

Edit: Of course, assuming FFG was given anywhere near as much info as was in that databank entry!

Based on the databank entry, I'd say 4/3/4/0.

TIEs almost always have focus/evade/barrel roll.

No upgrade slots other than elite.

It's described as 'much more heavily armed', while the TIE interceptor is only 'better armed', but nothing suggests a modular weapons mount (cannon).