So after Stag's and I's diatribe on the baratheon cards in the most recent CP I've decided to take a more positive approach and list some of the cards I'd like to see back and why. Interestingly enough none of these are power cards and they are all under 3 gold (bara's biggest hole, btw)

Stannis's Personal Guard i'm just not a fan of Knight of the Rainwood. In CCG where discard was prevelent then maybe... this guy fits in nicely with some of bara's themes already and yes i'm anticipating more NW theme in bara.

Vanguard Lancer did i mention I'm not a fan of KotRw? Initiative bonus is always good in bara, might help them draw w/ Bay of Ice and gives them some influence base to use already exisiting cards (like westeros bleeds to get value out of KotRw or vigiliant stag).

Knight of the Reach OMG! a war crest in bara....

Acolyte of Asshai attachment control!

the next three might be a little undercosted....but in bara it might be a welcome change

Bearer of the Light since we insist on bara being the 'reducer house' give me a flop friendly claim soaking in house trait reducer

Sorceress' Shadow stealth at a cost, but stealth.....stealth how I miss you.

Septon of Dragonstone make lanni think about its kneel effects after robert, renly, mel, and stannis. also give me a way to make some of the utlity worth while if i don't need that utility.

I was thinking of adding him but he would have to be modified as there aren't any tittle attachments in the game so his risk is gone.

Hmm, Lets see.

King's Scribe

5KE Davos

The Assai whose strength and cost = power you had.

Winter Mel

ITE QoT

Oops forgot... the ridiculous 5ke location that pumps bara characters +1 for each bara character,

and of course AcoA Jaqen h'Gar.

Brothers At War

Forever Standing

Winter Bob

Power of the Faith

The ITE Bara Plot

The Targ/Bara Assai that either returns attachments from play or discard pile to its owners hand. (I'm serious about this one...)

I'm confused. Is the sarcasm because you think I'm wrong to be asking for cards back or because I'm asking for power cards?

If its the latter I'd like an actual constructive argument as to which cards are overpowered and why. I think they all fill a hole and add something to help bara fall out of the pattern they are in in LCG.

I would like Festering Wound. ~For three gold it's balanced, right? And while we're at it, maybe ITE Greyworm and the VED dragons?

Bloodlust....... that's it for me.

I was being postmodern, my sarcasm was just because I felt like being sarcastic... besides at some point someone would ask for those cards... now I've got them all in one post... I would appreciate it if you all collaborated to just make one big long post to "calmly" explain why those cards will never be reprinted. Then I'll of course reply with a rhetoric to persuade you it will make cicero sound like george bush. It will be aweome... on a stick.

I have had maybe 5 hrs sleep so far since last sunday? So dont mind me, I'm being sarcastic less for Lars' sake and more for my own... I just hope someone found it amusing and got a chuckle.

I am serious about some of them... the question is which ones :-P

Twn2dn said:

Actually I always felt festering wound by itself was fair... it was fields of ghiscar that made the card broken. I would be in support if they added deathbound and ambush to the card (No recursion, but can ambush it... I think thats fair).

... They don't have dead pile recursion do they... aside from characters?

The day we see WED Bob reprinted is the day I drive to FFG and beat a designer/developer silly.

I'll try and answer the original post, and disregard the topic creep... Mostly since I don't know the old power cards, or how broken they were - since I'm not an old CCG player. Then again, due to that I might have a different viewpoint on the cards Lars suggested. =)

First of all, I gotta agree with Bara having a gaping hole around the 1-2 gold slot, with very few actually viable options, while the 3-4 gold slot is packed with a huge amount of cards that would be decent in competitive decks, but never get to see play due to too many other options.

So... regarding the cards Lars' posted:

Stannis' Personal Guard - This would work nicely, and I'm also hoping for Bara to get more NW support.

Vanguard Lancer - Might be slightly undercosted in the current format? Possibly with just one of the two (just initiative or influence) it would work. Baratheon really needs to get some cheaper knights, that can actually have attachments. (Jousting Steed might be fun in it's odd way, possibly not competitive, but fun. Renown to a weenie, and you can use it for additional attack muscle or even claim soak.)

Knight of the Reach - Something like this could also work. Rather a knight that could have attachments, though. A 2-gold with a crest would work, since bara is anyway running 3x distinct mastery...

Acolyte of Asshai - Too broken attachment control for LCG. Also a bit redundant with Zealous Collector. I think attachment control needs to be a bit harder. Although this wouldn't be more broken than Compelled by The Rock...

Acolyte of Asshai - Could work as a 0-str? (Since we've been seeing those lately)

Sorceress' Shadow - Good. Stealth is needed.

Septon of Dragonstone - Hmm... Interesting. Still, I think I would be glad to see support for the only existing renown granting mechanic as well. (That damned horse again...)

first off, thanks.

second it doesn't matter if you're an older player or not. in fact i've only ever used like 2 of these cards in a game I just knew about some of the others and tzumainn searched for the rest so all opinions are valid.

third, on to the card comments:

WWDrakey said:

i dunno, dornish paramour seems to get the 1 influence for free as on a character you lose the use of the character to kneel the influence. ~its not like gold in lanni where you get the character and the gold. Plus, if you look at the cost of overzealous scout then this guy is right on the money (OS = 3 for 3 STR two icons and +4 Int. VL = 2 for 2 STR two icons +1 Int +1 Influence)

WWDrakey said:

well attachments could be argued, but do you want them for positive attachments or do you feel that negative attachments need to be put on him? I wasn't even thinking of DM, I just am missing a war crest in bara...especially with all the war crest cards out there. In fact I think every house should have one in house crest.

WWDrakey said:

really? I've never thought that a domience effect on a character that required a kneel in dom to be broken. I mean it has to make it to dom standing. Plus, you bring up Compelled by the rock and that sets attachment control bar very high. This just discards, does so after at least a challenge round of use out of the attachment and takes away the possible use of the character again (see vanguard lancer)

WWDrakey said:

Sure, I honestly don't care about her STR. I picked her over the 1 gold 1 STR 1 icon in house reducers because I wanted another 0 cost (and she would not be as good as brown ben plum or Orphan of the greenblood (also has 1 STR btw...) so there really is no argument about power level...)

WWDrakey said:

see, the horse for me doesn't do a whole lot for me. If I'm going to spend two gold on an attachment to give me power I'd rather spend it on Martial Law. Again we have an ability that causes you to either use it or the character in challenges (so its not brainless) and you are paying an extra gold for the ability. Why can't granting renown be the mechinic? why limit it to horses/attachments?

Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer

Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer Vanguard Lancer

Made EVERY one fo my decks from Tourney of Swords until it rotated. Ist NOT undercosted - and cards like that really made influence effects worth serious consideration. at the moment, they're not - and this would nicely fill Bara's two gold hole. It would make things like the vigilant influence event worth a look and they are little knights - which really fits the House theme. Hell Targ got FB - AND Threat from teh North, which people were really worried about pre First Snow.

The other thing would be Forever ??? - the infiinte stand event. It had a STR restriction adn Bara really does need the efefct ro somehting like it. A small, reliable yet cancellable stand effect to help counter kneel startegy. Its not like i'm asking for the broken R'hllor attachment.

Both the Septon and the Sorceress Shadow are excellent suggestions and would fit nicely into the Hosue's roster right about now.

oooh- Wildfire Blade would be a nice one too. It kind of never saw the action it should have becuase of the Winter Plots and the Cannot be Saved reset.

~ I'm surprised bloodycelt didn't call for Swayed by the Light or VED Lightbringer. 5K Davos - please!

Stag Lord said:

Don't hold back, there, Stag. Tell us how you really feel.

Err... this answer got a bit wordy, sorry about that. =)

i dunno, dornish paramour seems to get the 1 influence for free as on a character you lose the use of the character to kneel the influence. ~its not like gold in lanni where you get the character and the gold. Plus, if you look at the cost of overzealous scout then this guy is right on the money (OS = 3 for 3 STR two icons and +4 Int. VL = 2 for 2 STR two icons +1 Int +1 Influence

I'm not sure if the paramour gets the influence for free, since it only has a single icon, and one that's almost overabundant in the house anyway. Compare for example to House Dayne Knight, Bastard of Robert, Direwolf Pup or even Lannisport Weaponsmith... The influence is thought to be as powerful as one icon, +1 STR, stealth, or even +1 Gold. Although I'm not completely sure if this is completely balanced. Then again, the prices and abilities for 2 gold characters seem to vary quite a lot from card to card... For example, compared to Lord Edric's Knight or some other cards it seems, if not overpowerful, then at least top-of-the-curve (although there the House Dayne trait does a lot). Then again compared to some other 2 gold chars (Dragon Thief and some others with really powerful abilities) it seems pretty balanced. Although these cards seem to mostly be from the earlier chapter packs and core sets, nowadays you either get 2 STR, one icon and an ability or 1 STR, 2 icons and an ability for 2 gold... So, I think the Lancer would be right on the limit.

well attachments could be argued, but do you want them for positive attachments or do you feel that negative attachments need to be put on him? I wasn't even thinking of DM, I just am missing a war crest in bara...especially with all the war crest cards out there. In fact I think every house should have one in house crest.

I was more thinking about positive ones than negatives there, but it's a bit of a side-point. Mainly I just agree with a proper solid war crest character being needed in Baratheon. Of course somekind of 2 gold character with a noble or holy crest (although we already have quite a lot of holy crests... in the 3-4 gold section, and not much to do with them) wouldn't be bad either... Say a "Royal Cousin", which has a noble crest, power icon and 2 strength.

really? I've never thought that a domience effect on a character that required a kneel in dom to be broken. I mean it has to make it to dom standing. Plus, you bring up Compelled by the rock and that sets attachment control bar very high. This just discards, does so after at least a challenge round of use out of the attachment and takes away the possible use of the character again (see vanguard lancer)

It's the unconditionality of it that bothers me. Compare for example to Ascetic Follower (same icons, same strength, same cost, works only on banners - although steals them for chars), and add-in the fact that attachment control should cost more for other houses than Targ. Otherwise we're removing from them their only real advantage. Although, Compelled by the Rock is already clearly overpowered, in this regard. That's one of the very few cards I would really like to see banned actually...

Sure, I honestly don't care about her STR. I picked her over the 1 gold 1 STR 1 icon in house reducers because I wanted another 0 cost (and she would not be as good as brown ben plum or Orphan of the greenblood (also has 1 STR btw...) so there really is no argument about power level...)

Orphan actually is a 0 gold 0 STR, and the new House Dayne Squire is 1 gold, 0 STR (that's where I got the idea from...). For comparison.

see, the horse for me doesn't do a whole lot for me. If I'm going to spend two gold on an attachment to give me power I'd rather spend it on Martial Law. Again we have an ability that causes you to either use it or the character in challenges (so its not brainless) and you are paying an extra gold for the ability. Why can't granting renown be the mechinic? why limit it to horses/attachments?

I think there would be room for both actually, would make Bara much less vulnerable to kneel, while still not making it too powerful against other kinds of decks (Targ and Martell can get rid of weenies, and the military pressure from Stark or GJ should make sure Bara that Bara can't field an army of renown weenies). I mainly like the idea of the horse for a few reasons... It's also a low-cost char that can't be kneeled in Marshalling or by shadows (and also doesn't die to venomous blades). As a renown attachment it's overcosted, but as a 2 gold 2 icon bouncer with an ability... it's not that bad. The renown is more of a plus, than the beef there.

PS. How the quoting should work on these forums, I have no idea... Talk about unintuitive

WWDrakey said:

okay heres where I see it differently You view influence as a resource on a character that = +1 STR, an additional icon, stealth, or +1 Gold. However, all of those things are an advantage that do not take away the use of the character and in most cases add to the use of the character. The +1 Influence requires you to forgo the use of the character if you want to use the influence. you don't get both the inlfuence and the character in a challenge or to help you win domienence.

WWDrakey said:

see I think aestic follower is stronger then AoA. sure he has a condition but he gives a plus 2 instead of a plus 1 for the same cost (and you will gladly use him until a banner is played, w/ AoA you will be making a desicion to forgo the character ordiscard the attachment). at 1 gold, a domenience effect and can be threated form the north at will, I see nothing overvauled about unconditoned. Also, i've never bought that only targ should have good/cheap attachment control, if thats the case then only bara should have power grab (or all of bara's characters w/ renown should cost 1 less gold) Also, right now i'm only afraid to play an attachment against lanni, targ, while they can, don;t seem to try too hard to remove attachments...plus thye now have the 2nd best in the form of the new 1 cost location 3x of them and they can remove all other attachment control from the deck.

WWDrakey said:

hmm hadn't noticed that he is a modified reprint....that sucks...not that 1 STR makes a difference (its that I can't use my old ones ) as I said I don't really care if she 0 or 1 str.

WWDrakey said:

I just copy paste the [Qoute:xxxx] stuff

Though I disagree with a few specifics, I generally agree that Bara needs a lot more options at the 0-2 gold slot. For a house that relies on rush to win most games, a few more options for cheap characters with renown is probably exactly what they need. (Whether this is cheap guys with renown or just more utility guys is debatable, but right now most cheap guys feel a bit like filler.) A decent indicator of this is that Venomous Blade tends to tear apart Lanni but often has little effect against Bara, at least in games that I've played.

On a somewhat related note, I think Targ suffers from the opposite problem. It has a lot of low-STR characters that are generally very efficient but not very threatening late game. (Some of the season-based characters are the exception, along with a handful of others like Khal Drogo, who nevertheless ends up feeling more like a utility character than a game winner.)

~So maybe the solution is just move Renley and Stannis to House Targ and Brown Benn/Shadow Prophet/Merchant Spy/Disgruntled Mercenary to House Bara?

In all seriousness though, the cost curve seems pretty well managed for most other houses. Lanni has a good distribution of playable characters from 1 gold to 4+ gold (possibly the best of any house, with plenty of playable 1 and 2 gold characters); Martell has a decent mix of 1-3 gold characters, with a TON of 2-gold characters that are playable; Stark seems to have more of a mix (like Lanni?), I think; and Greyjoy's curve is closer to Targ's, with the exception that it has more *playable* characters at the 3-, and especially 4-, gold slot than Targ. (Some people may like the 4-cost dragons, but I just can't get behind them, or most of the other 3-gold Targ characters, except for some of those based around seasons. That's just my opinion though...I wouldn't be that surprised if others are having different experiences.)

@Lars:

Lars said:

Okay, I'm starting to come round to this. The influence really is less useful on a stronger character, and all in all the lancer is starting to sound good, but fair. =)

Lars said:

Hmm, I think with a small drawback, say "kneel 1 influence and AoA to..." or "pay 1 gold and kneel AoA to..." it would still work, while not being too 'easy' for attachment discard. But this mainly has to do with my personal love for attachments, and not wanting to make them obsolete with too good control... and I really don't like Compelled by the Rock, due to this very reason. Geh.

@Twn2dn:

Lars said:

I also agree with this, there are very few really solid 3-4 gold chars, both unique and non-unique, and only 1 or 2 that are in any way comparable to those in other houses.

Lars said:

With GJ I definately agree, but I think you're pretty much wrong with Stark. In addition to the usual suspects (refugee, scavenger, herald) there are only 0-2 gold chars with just military crests (which are all just inferior to carrion bird) and a few 'ok' choices (tumblestone, peasant defenders). But nothing comparable to the synergy and solidity Lanni has. Of course I was mostly thinking of non-uniques here, and Stark does have a decent amount of uniques in the 2 gold area.

Lars said:

Let's see how this worked. =)

EDIT: Otherwise well, but it thinks Lars said it all...

WWDrakey said:

see, atachments should be fragile and vulnerable. Otherwise they are way under costed. Look at Aegon's blade. for 1 gold it gives +2 STR, Stealth and renown.....the theroy is that it needs to be cheap because it is doubly vunerable to attachment and character contorl. With the lack of attachment contorl its now almost half price

Re Starks weenies. they do have an eccelectic mix w/ things like Jayne pool, but for the most part I'd rate them 4th or 5th in weenies. My ratings on charactr spread in general.

Martell - best weenies and bomb characters

Lanni - can ignore anything over 3 gold expcet tyrion (who is 2 gold twice ) but their 3 gold and below is gross.

GJ - might struggle for icons in the weenie slot, but over all a solid mix

Stark - got the nod here because, as Dan noted, Targ is struggling in unique named 3+ gold characters.

Targ - weenies are the best of the bunch, but take a lot of work to make effective.

Bara - strong uniques, if not overcosted (CS stannis needs to be errated to 3 gold as his ability is smushed by the expanding card pool and lord trait) but craptacular weenies.

Lars said:

...and most of both the character and attachment control is in Lanni to boot... Maybe I'm just a bit careful with making attachments less vulnerable, since I really don't want AGoT to go the way of that one big CCG... I like the idea of Master of the Lemonwood, for example, with it only mostly targetting negative-attachments. Mainly, because negative attachments can't be controlled as easily with character control. I think Aegon's Blade is a bit of an exception really, most 1-2 gold attachments don't really override similarly costed weenie characters (in houses that HAVE good weenies...) in effectiveness. But then again, this might be a situation to agree to disagree. =)

Lars said:

Pretty much agree with this. I'd say that the houses divide into two categories:

Strong character pool: GJ, Martell, Lanni

Lacking character pool: Stark, Baratheon, Targaryen

...not sure about the actual order, since it pretty much starts depending on the criteria, but I think the division into two camps is quite universal really. All three houses with lacking character pools have their own unique problems, and all three strong houses have their own specialty areas.

You guys might be right about Stark's cost curve...I admit I'm a bit out of the loop when it comes to Stark these days. It's been awhile since I've played against a Stark deck (hence the "?"). Really though, the order doesn't matter. The point is more that Bara and Targ's cost curves are a bit off with the current cardpool. I don't think this is a longstanding (read "pre-LCG") problem though, so I expect as more cards are printed things will round out a bit.

I always found Targ to be always starving for gold, with its triggered effects now being either influence or gold driven... I don't think in most games I played Targ to have much opportunity to play anything that cost more than 3 gold. But then when I played Targ my opponent was Stark.

Were they running winter, Bloodycelt?

Directly from the French forum a little bara spoil :-)

Crest holy, cost 2... not bad! ;-)

I'm pretty sure he's referencing wolfstalwart - and his CCG era Murder/Traitors deck that dominated the Northeast for about a year.

Gualdo said:

Not impressed. Why woudln't I play refugees for this STR/icon mix - for FREE!? Is the Holy Crest worth two gold? I don't think Confession is worth the gold....DOubt this makes the cut.

Stag Lord said:

plus refugee doesn't get the ally hate.

also, i don't get the free +1 STR while standing. Is the new rush to stand still for 15 turns to win dom? If i want undercosted STR at a risk I can run the 2 for 3STR traitor...without draw I'm sure I can find ways to play him w/out discarding a card form my hand...