1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

So...just like imperials had Boba Fet and kath scarlet, and rebels had dash rendar before scum existed?

A fair counter, but at least most of those have been rectified (personally still waiting on Dash). And that still doesn't answer why characters like Han, Lando, and other Smuggler types deserve a sub-faction because they don't "fit in" to Scum & Villainy. Scum already encapsulates a very broad spectrum of individuals and organizations. Considering what he did for a living and who he worked for, pre-ANH Han fits right in with Scum.

And that's the major difference. Kath and Boba make more sense in Scum as they are not Imperial supporters. Boba did work for them, but that was just a job. From what I can tell, Kath had no positive connection with the Empire, this was even more shoehorned into the Imp faction than Boba. I think Dash feels the same as Boba does, but he did a few things a bit above and beyond what his contract was, so having him in the Rebel faction works a little better, but I am still waiting for him to pop up in Scum. Putting the likes of Han and Lando into a new sub-faction based on the idea that they don't fit into the parent faction doesn't seem necessary as the nature of Scum is quite broad and already holds characters like them.

A good example of what I am talking about comes from the upcoming Saw's Renegades pack. There is a decent argument to be made that Saw doesn't belong in Rebels as it is suppose to be the Rebel Alliance, an organization he and his Partisans split from. But FFG went for the straight forward answer of putting him in Rebels because that seemed the best place for him. And while a subfaction for Partisans could have been interesting, it isn't needed. Despite Saw having characteristics that don't really fit Rebels, that's where he is. Han and Lando don't need a sub-faction because while I would describe their early ventures as "scummy", one does not have to be scummy or villainous to be in the Scum & Villainy faction.

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

It's supposed to have been disabled in a battle with the Rebels before he nabbed, it, after all, and there can't be too many occasions of an Imperial or Imperial II being taken out.

The ship in question was supposedly abandoned during the Battle of Toprowa, the ‘victory’ mentioned in the opening crawl of ANH where the DS plans were stollen. Since this has been reconned many times including R1 placing the battle at Scarriff things can get complicated. Perhaps this cruiser is meant to be one of the ISDs at Scarif, they didn’t do too well in that battle. Perhaps it was a ship of a different class that was off camera that likewise suffered damage. Perhaps we can interprete Crimson Jack’s battlecruise as being involved in any of the battles seen in Rebels which often included non-ISD ships like interdictors and such.

and yes we need Jaxxon (the obvious inspiration for Bucky Ohare) and his ship in this game.

Hope not.

The name “Scum and Villainy” doesn’t mean that everyone in the faction is a villain, nor does it mean that they don’t bathe properly. It is a nod to a line in New Hope and includes characters who don’t have a dog in the fight between the Empire and the Alliance (or First Order/Resistance).

Sure, some of them are reprehensible monsters, but you also have characters like Nym, Fenn Rau and Emon. S&V is not the faction that is “evil but not Empire,” it includes characters that have no political affiliation with either of the main factions. The Empire has “good guys” like Soontir or Juno, just like the Alliance has “bad guys” like Cassian.

I guess my point is, outside of the main characters and higher ups in each group (who occupy pretty polarized good vs evil tropes), once you work down the ranks you are far more likely to find shades of grey in the mix. That is exactly the same for Scum. Sure, there’s a slave loving slug gangster and a couple former sith kicking around in the faction, but there’s also a noble mandalorian warrior, a member of a shipping family with rebel ties, and a cop from a desert planet.

Creating a new faction just to not have 3 characters lumped in as “villains” is a little silly.

Oh, and in what universe is Lando not S&V material? His whole master plan the first time we meet him is to sell out his buddy, steal the girl (literally), and get his ship back. He only ever changes his mind when Vader screws him over.

48 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

The Empire has “good guys” like Soontir or Juno, just like the Alliance has “bad guys” like Cassian.

You mention Cassian without mentioning Saw!?!?

You monster! (otherwise, good points, all.)

19 minutes ago, Yakostovian said:

You mention Cassian without mentioning Saw!?!?

You monster! (otherwise, good points, all.)

Fair point. I haven’t seen or read other stuff that Saw is in, so the fact that he’s a bad dude is one of those things that we were told but not shown (although everything he does to poor Bohdi is pretty awful). We are explicitly shown that Cassian won’t hesitate to murder anyone who threatens the rebellion, or his success.

8 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

Fair point. I haven’t seen or read other stuff that Saw is in, so the fact that he’s a bad dude is one of those things that we were told but not shown (although everything he does to poor Bohdi is pretty awful). We are explicitly shown that Cassian won’t hesitate to murder anyone who threatens the rebellion, or his success.

Yeah, about that: Saw is worse. WAAAAY WORSE.

Cassian I can understand his perspective. He's making hard choices. Still on the darker side of grey, but not morally gone.

Saw is a d*** for the sake of it. He's out to hurt people because he has been hurt in the past. He's broken inside.

1 minute ago, Yakostovian said:

Yeah, about that: Saw is worse. WAAAAY WORSE.

Cassian I can understand his perspective. He's making hard choices. Still on the darker side of grey, but not morally gone.

Saw is a d*** for the sake of it. He's out to hurt people because he has been hurt in the past. He's broken inside.

Is there a book out there, or should I just get of my rear and binge clone wars and rebels?

This really makes Saw a better character and gives more depth to his refusal to escape in Rogue One. He knows he’s too far gone and there is no place for him in the rebellion, but others can still keep hope alive.

I am making my assessment of Saw only from Clone Wars and Rebels. If there is a book or comic, I am not aware of it.

Clone Wars is a pretty good show (from about halfway through Season 2 and on.) It has some key cool moments, but it also has plenty of cringewothy, eye-rolling, groan-inducingly bad moments in the show. Almost all involve either droids, or Gungans. (Since the antagonist faction is 95% droids, you can guess how often the show has bad moments.)

Rebels is the type of Star Wars I expect. Seasons 3 & 4 of Rebels is the Star Wars I was anticipating when critics were saying The Last Jedi was "the best Star Wars yet!" It is still a little silly and campy at times, but the cringe-worthy, groaning, and eyerolling is almost completely absent from Rebels, unlike The Clone Wars.

EDIT: Also, Clone Wars is not in Sequential order. Some "genius" decided to jump around in the story.

While Saw isn't it, the last remnants of his group are the primary antagonists in the Battlefront II tie-in book, Inferno Squad. The novel doesn't pull all that many punches about how bad the Empire can be, but man o man, the Dreamers (the remnants of the Partisans) are a lot worse.

13 hours ago, Yakostovian said:

I am making my assessment of Saw only from Clone Wars and Rebels. If there is a book or comic, I am not aware of it.

Clone Wars is a pretty good show (from about halfway through Season 2 and on.) It has some key cool moments, but it also has plenty of cringewothy, eye-rolling, groan-inducingly bad moments in the show. Almost all involve either droids, or Gungans. (Since the antagonist faction is 95% droids, you can guess how often the show has bad moments.)

Indeed. When you see him in clone wars he's just a kid, and...well....traumatic stuff happens. In Rebels he's just reached the point of blowing stuff up for the heck of it, and doesn't get why the rebellion isn't doing all-out war instead of building an alliance, gathering resources, etc. As far as he sees it, you should just be attacking with whatever you have, now, and sort out tomorrows problems tomorrow.

That said, he isn't stupid - he stumbles onto shipments for what is presumably the tail end of Galen Erso's research programme. There's presumably two reasons Bodhi Rook tried to contact him instead of anyone else in the rebellion - firstly he wasn't hard to find (the planet he was on, at least) and secondly he's probably the boogeyman name anyone involved in stardust kept hearing.

I'd agree on clone wars. It has some good early episodes as well as some silly and weak ones - generally anything centring on the clones themselves. I have to admit that as the...what? Second episode? Rookies rather caught off guard everyone expecting a 'kid's show'.

5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'd agree on clone wars. It has some good early episodes as well as some silly and weak ones - generally anything centring on the clones themselves. I have to admit that as the...what? Second episode? Rookies rather caught off guard everyone expecting a 'kid's show'.

Yes: Rookies is a good episode, but ideally it should be viewed in chronological order, as part of the story arc it seems meant to be a part of. I think the first Episode of Season 2 is the "Prequel" to Rookies, but I'd have to go back and look to be sure.

19 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

Is there a book out there, or should I just get of my rear and binge clone wars and rebels?

Clone Wars and Rebels is good Star Wars. It takes about 1/2 to 3/4 through the first season of Clone Wars for it to really find its feet (it is a little flat) but it is good stuff. There are a few episodes that are pretty much entirely a running lightsaber fight.

I think Yakostovian is overstating the incidence of cringe worthy (although I suppose that is a bit of a matter of taste and YMMV) but I found all of it quite enjoyable. I'm generally hard pressed to think of anything that might qualify. I guess any time Jar Jar shows up.

I'm really looking forward to the final season of Rebels getting its dvd release so I can finally catch it.

There are a few places out there that sort the Clone Wars episodes out into a better chronology and you can grab a best of list and maybe hit the high points and see if you want to dive into the rest of it. The animated guys get Star Wars way better than the TFA and TLJ guys in my opinion. I'll take a cringeworthy moments over rage that makes me want to walk out of the theater any day.

And as someone who loved Lee Van Cleff Cad Bane is a terrific addition to the Star Wars verse.

6 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I think Yakostovian is overstating the incidence of cringe worthy (although I suppose that is a bit of a matter of taste and YMMV) but I found all of it quite enjoyable. I'm generally hard pressed to think of anything that might qualify. I guess any time Jar Jar shows up.

I live streamed my binging of the show to my brother, who loved the show from start to finish. A few short takes:

S1E1 is not awful, but cold use some improvement.
S1E2-4 are fairly bad, because droids are idiots, and Greivous is not the mastermind we are supposed to think he is.
S1E5 is Rookies. Best part of Season 1 if you ask me.
S1E6-7 is a pretty groan-inducing two-part story arc.
S1E8. Bombad is in the title. Need I say more?

I could keep going, but I won't. The low point of the season has got to be "Blue Shadow Virus." Basically, anytime a battle droid does something other than battle, I likely found the scene to be cringeworthy.

I normally have a "3 episode rule" when it comes to a new TV show, but I sat through the first 13 Episodes of the Clone Wars expecting it to be great, and only once scratched the surface of "Good." I stopped watching because I thought it had been pulled from Netflix. 6 months later, I get into X-wing Miniatures, and I see the show is still on, so I binged the rest, complaining a little less as time went on.