1 hour ago, Darth Lupine said:

Anyway. There's my two Imperial credits. I've played everything from 40K to Warmahordes, FoW and everything in between, for over 3 decades. And I've never seen this level of salt on such a simple issue...I really hope FFG releases some guidelines soon.

I agree completely with you. Ive played a ton of other miniatures war games all that youve mentioned as well as a few historical games and I've never seen anyone make such a big deal as a bunch of people on this forum...

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby17b said:

I agree completely with you. Ive played a ton of other miniatures war games all that youve mentioned as well as a few historical games and I've never seen anyone make such a big deal as a bunch of people on this forum...

There have been 25 responses with only a handful of them being negative. I'm not seeing much salt.

I'm about as anti these comically over detailed bases as anyone, yet I'm not going to turn down a game just because my opponent's minis look silly.

If you wanted to see a freakout, you should have been on Usenet when the third edition of 40k was released. Those were some good times.

10 minutes ago, Hedgehobbit said:

There have been 25 responses with only a handful of them being negative. I'm not seeing much salt.

I'm about as anti these comically over detailed bases as anyone, yet I'm not going to turn down a game just because my opponent's minis look silly.

If you wanted to see a freakout, you should have been on Usenet when the third edition of 40k was released. Those were some good times.

I'm not only on these forums, but on several FB and local Legion pages, and believe me, the salt could fill several GR75 transports.

20 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

I'm not only on these forums, but on several FB and local Legion pages, and believe me, the salt could fill several GR75 transports.

Maybe it's good that I avoid such places.

My take on it is that my take doesn't matter. FFG's matters and I don't trust them enough to assume they won't do something stupid, which is why I'm quite a bit annoyed that they haven't released the rules yet when they are supposedly encouraging the hobby side. The longer they don't just tell us what is allowed the more people get tired of waiting and will just do whatever.

That said, I think FFG should require stock bases to be used, and the edges to be fully accessible for the movement tool and for base contact determination (nothing hanging over the side that would block it). Also vehicles lines must be clearly and accurately marked on the top of the base, paint on the side is not good enough. Beyond that, do what you will.

10 hours ago, The Hamburglar said:

I don't think that's a fair assessment. These days, lots of miniature games account for this by assigning a height that's not dependent on the physical characteristics of the model. I can't think of a single miniature game I currently play that doesn't do this (Infinity, Malifaux, DC Universe, Heavy Gear, etc). This not only solves the OP's issue, but it also allows players and even the game's own sculptors a measure of freedom in how they depict models (scenic bases, dynamic poses, etc).

You can take this however you like. Maybe mini-gamers are just as oblivious to common sense as other gamers, but I like to think of it as mini-gamers expecting clarity just as much as other gamers do.

Personally, I think "common sense" would dictate that you write these things into your rules from the start. Maybe the perceived problem isn't due to the player base lacking proper miniature gaming experience, as much as it is the designers?

I am in no way saying that the player base is "lacking proper miniature gaming experience".

The point I'm trying to make is that Legion is it's own game. It isn't Malifaux, 40k, Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Hormachine (Warmahordes), or any other miniatures game out there. Complaining about Legion being it's own game and stating that you will refuse to play it if the rules aren't what YOU think they should be is silly.

Again, be patient, wait for FFG to release the clarifications and Organized Play rules. If you decide this game isn't for you, so be it. If you decide that you want to play a game that is Star Wars themed, then take advantage of this opportunity.

And.... this is why TLOS never works out. Set hitbox sizes generally ends up working out better so players can do whatever they want, but personally I don't think the models of this game are really demanding scenic bases.

5 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

You can argue that you paint tick marks on the base, but I don't know how drunk you were at the time ? So I rather have the actual mark to easily reference.

That's a good point. For me it will be "Darn, I can't even remember painting all these figures"-drunk. I think, it will be a good idea to not sand the marks on the vehicle bases.

5 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

Then there's elevation. I've seen people mention mounting flyers low on the base, or higher...this one I'm a bit torn on. You can definitely model the ATST quite tall. Hmm. Jury still out here for me.

I'm mounting my flyers low for all my live, did that more than 25 yeas ago with my first Eldar Jetbikes, did that some weeks ago with my IA Jet Troopers. Just because I like the looks and for transport reasons. I'd be a very sad bunny, if this will be not allowed.

5 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

Anyway. There's my two Imperial credits. I've played everything from 40K to Warmahordes, FoW and everything in between, for over 3 decades. And I've never seen this level of salt on such a simple issue...I really hope FFG releases some guidelines soon.

That! I haven't assembled my Speederbikes yet, because I don't know the tournament rules for how to do that.

How hard is it to agree with your fellew player, what to do with alt bases or instance where the rules are fuzzy? Is it the power games that can't stand the thought of there might possible be one instance where they will feel boned and the game won't swing their way? Enjoy this time where its just a game and no hard core faq or meta has evolved.

How hard? Completely impossible if you want to compete at Worlds or other high-level FFG OP events with the army you invested so much time and money into.

8 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

Vehicle bases: now, here we have issues. As mentioned before, there's a bunch of game mechanics go off the base. Firing arcs...if you cover the stamped fire arcs, I have issues. You can argue that you paint tick marks on the base, but I don't know how drunk you were at the time ? So I rather have the actual mark to easily reference. There's some template set floating around, but I shouldn't have to ask you to lay out a template every time I want to check if my bikes managed to get out of arc of your ATRT.

I really wish they stamped the fire arcs into the side of the base (just have the slight lines along the top of the side).

I use Vallejo pumice for my basing and it ended up being immensely difficult to get the lines properly sorted while still getting good coverage. I've seen a couple people here to it, but I couldn't get it to work right. Accordingly, mine won't have the lines. This will be especially true once the flock, tufts and shrubbery is placed.

Luckily, with the templates out there, any painted line (or change in bevel color) can be quickly and easily checked for drunken inaccuracy by an opponent who disbelieves their accuracy.

The problem with the arc marks being on the sides instead of the top is that it's very hard to draw a straight line from a single point reliably. The game in general makes a good argument for GW's base paints though. Those do a great job of letting you have a cool base that somewhat naturally incorporates the firing arcs.

4 hours ago, shivore said:

How hard? Completely impossible if you want to compete at Worlds or other high-level FFG OP events with the army you invested so much time and money into.

Yes, but as for now, we have none of these things, so just have fun.

22 hours ago, Icelom said:

Couldn't it hurt you just as bad as help you? all of the sudden your units are taller and are no longer half covered by the cover....

If you can give me a reason why it would be more beneficial to the player with the tall bases then detrimental I would hear it... but in a true line of sight game where we look at how much of a unit is covered by cover then being smaller is often better no?

Would honestly love to know, but it just seems to be it would hurt you more than help. (the British learned pretty fast that building a tall as tank "to oversee the battlefield" was stupid as all ****)

Given that there is a tangible advantage to superior line of sight, yeah it’d be blatant cheating to artificially increase the height of units thereby increasing their line of sight.

9 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Given that there is a tangible advantage to superior line of sight, yeah it’d be blatant cheating to artificially increase the height of units thereby increasing their line of sight.

You're also increasing every enemy's line of sight to you. I don't know why people think you'd ever want to models higher than normal. The most blatant modelling for advantage scenarios I've seen are always making things shorter than normal to better get cover and block LoS.

I'm not in any way concerned about the guy moddeling his ATST standing all the way up, I'll just shoot it in the face. I am going to roll my eyes a lot at the guy who modelled his ATST draggin it's butt on the ground like a dog that just took a dump, so it can hide behind a house that would normally be half it's height.

20 hours ago, Ken on Cape said:

https://youtu.be/FTx2Olh1qfU

I think that if the game uses true line of sight, and Legion does, mounting the minis on a platform on the bases is cheating.

Except the game (by most people's definition it seems) doesn't use true Los in most cases. Ffg has confused everyone by calling it as such. Though there rumors that Alex D. Had stated that is true love of sighters are correct.

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

You're also increasing every enemy's line of sight to you. I don't know why people think you'd ever want to models higher than normal. The most blatant modelling for advantage scenarios I've seen are always making things shorter than normal to better get cover and block LoS.

I'm not in any way concerned about the guy moddeling his ATST standing all the way up, I'll just shoot it in the face. I am going to roll my eyes a lot at the guy who modelled his ATST draggin it's butt on the ground like a dog that just took a dump, so it can hide behind a house that would normally be half it's height.

When you have superior weapons range it’s more important to be able to see enemies, negating their capacity to use terrain to hide on the approach to objectives or enemy units.

Consider the worst case of fleet troopers (range 1-2) or Luke (1-2) vs Stormtroopers (1-3; DLT 1-4) or the AT-ST (1-4+).

Empire won’t care about being seen if the target can’t actually shoot back until they spend a turn or two closing range.

3 minutes ago, Derrault said:

When you have superior weapons range it’s more important to be able to see enemies, negating their capacity to use terrain to hide on the approach to objectives or enemy units.

Consider the worst case of fleet troopers (range 1-2) or Luke (1-2) vs Stormtroopers (1-3; DLT 1-4) or the AT-ST (1-4+).

Empire won’t care about being seen if the target can’t actually shoot back until they spend a turn or two closing range.

Literally, no matter how long range a model's weapons, I have never seen anyone model something taller for advantage. I saw someone who had a Wraithlord with a Brightlance, A semi durable unit with a weapon that can hit most of the table, and he had it modded crawling in a sniper position to try and claim cover saves.

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Literally, no matter how long range a model's weapons, I have never seen anyone model something taller for advantage. I saw someone who had a Wraithlord with a Brightlance, A semi durable unit with a weapon that can hit most of the table, and he had it modded crawling in a sniper position to try and claim cover saves.

Do You mean you’ve never seen anyone model anything taller ever,

or that you’ve never asked someone why they modeled something taller and gotten the response that it was for X advantage?

I’m not sure how the anecdotes are supposed to bear on the main question: Is modifying a model cheating if it has game play impact? (Answer: yes, of course!)

12 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

I am in no way saying that the player base is "lacking proper miniature gaming experience".

The point I'm trying to make is that Legion is it's own game. It isn't Malifaux, 40k, Infinity, Dropzone Commander, Hormachine (Warmahordes), or any other miniatures game out there. Complaining about Legion being it's own game and stating that you will refuse to play it if the rules aren't what YOU think they should be is silly.

Again, be patient, wait for FFG to release the clarifications and Organized Play rules. If you decide this game isn't for you, so be it. If you decide that you want to play a game that is Star Wars themed, then take advantage of this opportunity.

There's nothing unreasonable about pointing to potential issues with the game and sharing an opinion, especially if FFG may not have considered those issues carefully and haven't ruled on them definitively. Does FFG monitor their forums and social media (I don't know)? With the game in it's infancy, it seems like the best time for constructive criticism.

It's simple really. If TLOS is truly the way FFG wants to go with Legion, it forces them to have a stricter policy regarding the basing and modeling issue. If they want to allow freedom and creativity in regards to modeling and basing, they need to rethink the LoF rules. They have the choice between cultivating two very different hobby cultures. As a customer, I'd like to know which type of game I'm buying into.

In the meantime, people have minis they need to base in order to play. I don't think anyone wants to find out the way they've gone about doing so is against rules that didn't exist at the time they based them.

You have to differ from TLOS and check for Cover. Legion have TLOS for can attack or not.

If your playing a friendly game or willing to compromise don’t let it stifle your creativity.

If need be cut a length of plastic or dow-rod that represents the height of your model without the additional scenery and allow your opponent to use it to determine targeting and you to spot enemies.

I mean if we went off of actual modelled pose everyone is going to model their troops kneeling or laying down. Imagine how it will be to face the Ewok or Jawa armies!!!

4 hours ago, Dark Don said:

I mean if we went off of actual modelled pose everyone is going to model their troops kneeling or laying down.

No, this won't happen
I don't like those references to other games, but I heard the same arguments after 40k started to use true line of sight and skipped area terrain completely an edition later, and in 10 years I haven't seen a single army modelled that way (there was a swamp themed Imperial Guard army with models cut of by their knees, but it had more disadvantages than advantages).

And than there are 2 simply rules to overcome a problem even you one comes up with all models laying down:
use enough 2D are terrain on the table and Units which can draw LOS to an enemy unit can also be seen by this unit

1 hour ago, Kodos said:

No, this won't happen
I don't like those references to other games, but I heard the same arguments after 40k started to use true line of sight and skipped area terrain completely an edition later, and in 10 years I haven't seen a single army modelled that way (there was a swamp themed Imperial Guard army with models cut of by their knees, but it had more disadvantages than advantages).

And than there are 2 simply rules to overcome a problem even you one comes up with all models laying down:
use enough 2D are terrain on the table and Units which can draw LOS to an enemy unit can also be seen by this unit

I did it with my guard infantry.

But I also backed them with Nothjng but Basilisks and Heavy Mortars...

Know I want to see a picture of a full kneeling army (just because I have never seen one)