https://youtu.be/FTx2Olh1qfU

I think that if the game uses true line of sight, and Legion does, mounting the minis on a platform on the bases is cheating.

Couldn't it hurt you just as bad as help you? all of the sudden your units are taller and are no longer half covered by the cover....

If you can give me a reason why it would be more beneficial to the player with the tall bases then detrimental I would hear it... but in a true line of sight game where we look at how much of a unit is covered by cover then being smaller is often better no?

Would honestly love to know, but it just seems to be it would hurt you more than help. (the British learned pretty fast that building a tall as tank "to oversee the battlefield" was stupid as all ****)

As long as its not a gawdawful clear base...

I think as long as things are within reason... Don't mount your trooper on top of an eight rung ladder, but if you mount a guy to the base after you use basing material like I do so I can shoot all my bases at once with an airbrush I don' think it' that big of a deal... the thickness of sand or a light layer of spackle will not win you a game that you would otherwise lose

its fine because it hurts as much as it "helps"

Nothing prevents you from making the ATST as tall as it can pose...other than it will NEVER get cover....

a decade of wargames has taught me one thing. scenic bases hurt you more than help you. ive played lots of games that didnt restrict your artistic style (wh40k) saw lots of commanders of all kinds positioned into fearsome tall shapes, or up on a fallen monuments etc etc. everyone of them died faster than their shorter counter parts cuz they could never get cover. bottom line... relax man. sky isn't falling. at least not for you. but definitely for the people who make their minis taller.

2 hours ago, thebigeb2589 said:

a decade of wargames has taught me one thing. scenic bases hurt you more than help you. ive played lots of games that didnt restrict your artistic style (wh40k) saw lots of commanders of all kinds positioned into fearsome tall shapes, or up on a fallen monuments etc etc. everyone of them died faster than their shorter counter parts cuz they could never get cover. bottom line... relax man. sky isn't falling. at least not for you. but definitely for the people who make their minis taller.

Doesn't 40k use mostly area terrain? At least it did in the last version I played (which might be 10 versions ago considering how fast replace the rules). Currently, with Legion measuring cover from base to base, a high base doesn't have much of a tactical advantage. Don't like the way they look, but I wouldn't consider it cheating.

FFG might outlaw it at tournaments for stylistic reasons. Just to keep the look of their game consistent and distinct.

Why isn't there simply a standard trooper height, or even multiple height categories to eliminate this problem completely?

The HH-12 Storm Trooper model is about a head shorter than the DLT-19. In general, there's height variation with all the Storm Troopers (I'm assuming this is the case with other units, but I only have ST's in front of me). I seriously doubt their was any consideration put into the game balance of this when designing the minis. If FFG can play fast and loose with mini heights, why can't players? Just like when I go to shoot that HH-12 or another player goes to shoot at it, I'd assume either player has the right to request that the standard height base/mini be used.

Very simple solution.

If there is a question of line of sight replace the model with a standard one to determine los.

Just now, The Hamburglar said:

Why isn't there simply a standard trooper height, or even multiple height categories to eliminate this problem completely?

The HH-12 Storm Trooper model is about a head shorter than the DLT-19. In general, there's height variation with all the Storm Troopers (I'm assuming this is the case with other units, but I only have ST's in front of me). I seriously doubt their was any consideration put into the game balance of this when designing the minis. If FFG can play fast and loose with mini heights, why can't players? Just like when I go to shoot that HH-12 or another player goes to shoot at it, I'd assume either player has the right to request that the standard height base/mini be used.

why? that makes no sense. the standard height for a HH-12 trooper is not the standard height for a DLT-19 trooper.....

position your troopers tactically if this is an issue for you. FFG sets the heights they are not playing fast and loose.

Ha! I think they pick the heights based on how cool they look.

When you let people make their own terrain you are essentially throwing such fine details of game mechanics as a few mm up or down out the window.

1 minute ago, Icelom said:

why? that makes no sense. the standard height for a HH-12 trooper is not the standard height for a DLT-19 trooper.....

position your troopers tactically if this is an issue for you. FFG sets the heights they are not playing fast and loose.

Is the standard height for generic trooper Runny McRunerson intentionally different than generic trooper Standin McBlasterson? Because they're physically different, but their stats aren't. That seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Modelling a scenic base is just as much a disadvantage than an advantage.

I will wager ffg when they release their OP docs will only stipulate you need the correct base diameter sizes. Anything else will have a massive impact on gaining 40k/GW gamers to legion. I for one will reconsider playing if ffg say I can't texture my bases and have some little jerk at an event make a big deal about it

Common sense peole, its a wargame, wargamers like modelling bases because it looks cool. This isn't chess or xwing!

1 hour ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

Common sense peole, its a wargame, wargamers like modelling bases because it looks cool. This isn't chess or xwing!

I think we are dealing with a large proportion of players that do not have a background with "wargames", which is great really. That means that we have a larger player base than just "40k expats" but also means that some things wargamers take as common sense just isn't so common.

In the long run everything will work out. FFG will release the OP rules and any necessary FAQ, questions will be answered, and we can all enjoy playing this game. I known this is the internet, but if we just have some patience and a little decency things will work out fine.

We have a discussion about this in our local group. Can you modify height, must the fire arc lines be totally visible. Depending on the tournament rules some players armies (myself included) will not be tournament legal.

10 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

I think we are dealing with a large proportion of players that do not have a background with "wargames", which is great really. That means that we have a larger player base than just "40k expats" but also means that some things wargamers take as common sense just isn't so common.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. These days, lots of miniature games account for this by assigning a height that's not dependent on the physical characteristics of the model. I can't think of a single miniature game I currently play that doesn't do this (Infinity, Malifaux, DC Universe, Heavy Gear, etc). This not only solves the OP's issue, but it also allows players and even the game's own sculptors a measure of freedom in how they depict models (scenic bases, dynamic poses, etc).

You can take this however you like. Maybe mini-gamers are just as oblivious to common sense as other gamers, but I like to think of it as mini-gamers expecting clarity just as much as other gamers do.

Personally, I think "common sense" would dictate that you write these things into your rules from the start. Maybe the perceived problem isn't due to the player base lacking proper miniature gaming experience, as much as it is the designers?

30 minutes ago, The Hamburglar said:

I don't think that's a fair assessment. These days, lots of miniature games account for this by assigning a height that's not dependent on the physical characteristics of the model. I can't think of a single miniature game I currently play that doesn't do this (Infinity, Malifaux, DC Universe, Heavy Gear, etc). This not only solves the OP's issue, but it also allows players and even the game's own sculptors a measure of freedom in how they depict models (scenic bases, dynamic poses, etc).

Would I be right in assuming none of the games you mention have true line of sight rules? I utterly hate TLOS and it nearly made me avoid Legion entirely but I have friends that assure me the TLOS in this game isn't as ruinous as in other games.

If you put your mini on top of a platform your mini is easier in LOS for attacker. top to any ->> LOS is only used for can mini attack or not

If a mini has cover is absolutely a other story and only base to base.

Your terrain is bad if an added mm or 2 (or 3, as with my cork-layered bases for a Sullust look) changes cover. If FFG rules that all troops must stand flat, I'll not attend any events. Fortunately with the way the AT-ST kit is, it is very unlikely FFG will be so foolish.

This is a hobby game. Restricting how people can shape their look in such an unneeded way would hurt it a lot. Legion armies can and will be very personal projects, going far beyond mere game pieces. At least, that is what tipped me over into buying in.

Mounting mini's on large 40cm tall watchtowers would be dubious yes. Any kind of 'normal' scenic base, which could include rock peaks etc. that would elevate the model a couple of centimeters should be absolutely fine.

If I wrap some plastic around the base of a model, paint it so it looks like metal, does that mean it’s always in hard cover? If it’s true line of sight and you can’t see the model, you can’t shot at it.

I wouldn’t do that but I know rules people that would.

3 minutes ago, Ken on Cape said:

If I wrap some plastic around the base of a model, paint it so it looks like metal, does that mean it’s always in hard cover? If it’s true line of sight and you can’t see the model, you can’t shot at it.

I wouldn’t do that but I know rules people that would.

... no. Basing details, however elaborate, do not provide cover of any sorts. That's basing 101.

I was going to place my Airspeeder on a longer stick, to simulate the speeder 2 .

But it looks really stange, when the Airspeeder is "flying" 30cm over the ground.

If people are going to spend their money and time, painting and making great bases or prefere clear bases, I will play them anyday. Why put down or make rules against how people want their plastic soldiers to look. Better than unpainted plastic.

See, there are two things to this, IMO.

Infantry or trooper bases: no arcs or notches. Model height relatively uniform, and a few millimeters difference won't matter. Here, the primary consideration is the base diameter, as that could affect move and range measuring. So, if your base diameter is the same as an issue base, I won't care (altough for the record, I think transparent bases look awful).

Vehicle bases: now, here we have issues. As mentioned before, there's a bunch of game mechanics go off the base. Firing arcs...if you cover the stamped fire arcs, I have issues. You can argue that you paint tick marks on the base, but I don't know how drunk you were at the time ? So I rather have the actual mark to easily reference. There's some template set floating around, but I shouldn't have to ask you to lay out a template every time I want to check if my bikes managed to get out of arc of your ATRT.

Then there's a couple I've seen that actually mounted a vehicle on a third party base...which means now you can't accurately measure movement. Vehicles move in a particular way. Not notching the tool actually gives you some half inch extra move, plus it messes up the final facing determination.

Then there's elevation. I've seen people mention mounting flyers low on the base, or higher...this one I'm a bit torn on. You can definitely model the ATST quite tall. Hmm. Jury still out here for me.

Anyway. There's my two Imperial credits. I've played everything from 40K to Warmahordes, FoW and everything in between, for over 3 decades. And I've never seen this level of salt on such a simple issue...I really hope FFG releases some guidelines soon.