51 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

You seem to forget that in OP you'll be playing vs rebels as well and taking an action from a AtRt as well as a snowspeeder will be common and well worth it's cost

It really isn't. I've played T-47's a lot. Unless you tag them with 2 Ions they don't care because they still get cumpolsory + normal action so they still do their jobs. You can annoy an AT-RT, but that AT-RT is very similar in cost as the unit that's annoying it, so it's not exactly winning the efficiency of the year award.

The Ion trooper also has 1 major defect and that's only being Impact 1. It really should've been 2 because if you don't nat roll into a crit, they only have to block 1 hit to completely negate that 32 pt weapon, which is just laughably bad.

I 100% understand that Ion, much like in X-Wing, should never be the most efficient solution to the problem because that presents a lot of balance problems (wohoo, I got this cool 50 dollar model...that never gets to activate), but if that's the case, then why does Ion even exist as a mechanic? Just drop it and have a generally good anti-armor weapon. I had a game where my opponent spent the better part of 3-4 turns with a pair of ion units messing around with a T-47, the T-47 still killed a unit when it either activated before the Ions or simply blocked one. The two Ion units never contributed to the mission. Basically he traded 3 units for that 1 T-47...seems bad.

I think i'd rather have Ion reduce weapon/movement efficiency rather than strip actions PURELY so it doesnt have the xwing problem of "It must never be the best option"
Limit it to 1 ion per turn for the effect, reduce speed by 1 (min 0) and when attacking roll 1 fewer die per weapon. That way ion is more of a bonus and not the whole point of the weapon applying it, cause currently the weapon applying it is hot garbage due to how mean ion potentially can be.

Everyone keeps talking about the reliability of the z6.... Really?

1 hour ago, Tirion said:

Everyone keeps talking about the reliability of the z6.... Really?

You are honestly seeing 1-2 damage most of time without aim.

5 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

You are honestly seeing 1-2 damage most of time without aim.

And it also routinely crits making it very relevant against Dodge/Cover/Armor

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

The Ion trooper also has 1 major defect and that's only being Impact 1. It really should've been 2 because if you don't nat roll into a crit, they only have to block 1 hit to completely negate that 32 pt weapon, which is just laughably bad.

You have an entire rest of the squad to try to get that nat crit on. Impact 2 with 2 reds would've made it FAR too likely to land two hits on armored non-Speeder vehicles while splitting fire. Then we would legitimately be talking about 60 points completely negating 200+ point AT-STs, which would be terrible imbalance.

Also, is it a 32 point weapon, or a roughly 80 point unit? Because you're being inconsistent between this statement and the AT-RT comparison right before it. If it's effective splitting fire, you have to consider it as only the 32 point weapon. If you're assumed to be firing the squad alongside it (rather than getting them to suppress and kill troopers also in the same action), then it's logical to consider it the 80 point unit.

Just now, MasterShake2 said:

And it also routinely crits making it very relevant against Dodge/Cover/Armor

But not as relevant against armor as Impact. It's good, but it's generalist-good, not specialized-good.

Just now, kaffis said:

But not as relevant against armor as Impact. It's good, but it's generalist-good, not specialized-good.

Crit rate of the Z-6 is .75 v Armor, the Crit rate of Ion is 1.25. That's a really poor difference for a weapon that costs 10 pts more, is supposed to be specialized and exhausts on use. Sure, the Ion is more reliable on the Crit, but it's superiority against armor is pretty marginal.

7 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Crit rate of the Z-6 is .75 v Armor, the Crit rate of Ion is 1.25. That's a really poor difference for a weapon that costs 10 pts more, is supposed to be specialized and exhausts on use. Sure, the Ion is more reliable on the Crit, but it's superiority against armor is pretty marginal.

It's 66% more effective at delivering a crit for armored targets to save against than the Z-6. I guess I'm failing to see the inadequacy.

If you think of the point costs as 10 points for the rebel trooper holding the gun (and the squad's increased wound count that goes with it -- just like the 10 point extra trooper upgrade), then the cost of the Z-6 itself is 12 points, and the MPL-57 is 22. From a raw crits per point standard, 18 points of that MPL-57 gun cost is damage against armored targets, and then you pay 4 points for the Ion effect. I'd say that's a steal -- against armor.

If you're making a list in a trooper-heavy meta, yeah, don't take Ion. Nobody's mind is blown, there.

If you find it to be the right answer, then go nuts, but anybody that's read to this point has already seen most of the meaningful discussion. Here's my closing thoughts on the Ion:

Ioning a vehicle to the point where it loses 2 actions is effectively costing you 4 actions, 2 to fire and 2 to recover. It's also costing activations and activations that have to go before the vehicle or be rendered less effective. Keeping something continuously ioned is locking down 2 of your trooper units and half the objectives right now use troopers as a win condition and none of them specifically call out vehicles, which translates to, you voluntarily trading 2 win condition activations for 1 non win condition activation. And this all assuming the ion worked and didn't just land a single crit that got shrugged off. For me, there has to some ridiculously hard to deal with vehicle where killing it outright is 100% not viable, for me to turn to tying up a pair of trooper units as the right call. In all other cases, I'll just turn to ATRT lasers, T-47s or Luke that aren't win conditions (with the exception of Luke) and that can end the problem outright in 1-2 turns reliably.

Every game that I've taken ion guns I've won, in part due to putting ion tokens on the at-st (and in one game I would have lost without being able to place a ion token at a crucial point).

I run two units and as long as you choose your activation order carefully, you can ruin the at-st's day.

@MasterShake2, I'm with you, but i dont think the ion is worthless, but I'm kind of the wrong guy to argue either way. My black dice always roll at least 3 blanks and I've been known to take all squads of 5 guys with no upgrades just to get an extra squad or 2 in my list. Honestly we need more options to compare or an idea of what's coming down the release schedule before we make a definitive case for or against anything. Z6 is way better now, but I'd love to think the ion weapon was designed with more vehicles in mind than what we've seen so far

23 hours ago, Soulless said:

But if the ATST has already gotten into a good position a single Ion token wont really do much to it aside from stopping it from aiming, which wont matter much when potentially 4 weapons unload on you.

If an ATST has a single Ion, I didn't think it could "unload all 4"...

...isn't Weiss an Action?

Free Action, i believe

31 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Free Action, i believe

Aaaaah - indeed!

2 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Free Action, i believe

And then a ready action every turn after to ready him.

In more than one game 2 troops with the MPL in combination with impact grenades are very strong against AT-STs. An early ion-token let the troopers get near enough to the AT-ST, because he must decide to fire or to move. When he will fire back, you've got like 2 casualties, but in the next round they swarm around him and he must run away,or in the other case he have to rotate and has a good probability to get the next ion token. For the point difference between the troopers (174) and the AT-ST with laser upgrade and a troop naked stormies (259) you get a rebel walker with rotary blaster (85 + 174 = 259) who will easily defend the troopers against the stormies to counter the attack.

In my opinion good planed rock-paper-scissor attacks are more effective than to fight troop vs troop and heavy vs heavy and the rebels have the better position to force the enemy in such a situation then the empire. But we play with a bunch of city like terrain.

Quote

But if the ATST has already gotten into a good position a single Ion token wont really do much to it aside from stopping it from aiming, which wont matter much when potentially 4 weapons unload on you.

This will never happen. The mortar has a range from 4-unlimited and the rockets 1-2. When you not playing very risky with your troopers he only could fire 2 weapons (the main and the laser upgrade) in one round on the same squad before you can outmaneuver the walker.

I prefer RTs with Flamers - therefore use Ion on Troopers for ranged anti-armour.

If you’re RTs have lasers then I’d be less inclined to use Ions.

Generally for me it’s about the balance of the list as a whole, rather than specific guys.

1 hour ago, Dave Grant said:

I prefer RTs with Flamers - therefore use Ion on Troopers for ranged anti-armour.

If you’re RTs have lasers then I’d be less inclined to use Ions.

Generally for me it’s about the balance of the list as a whole, rather than specific guys.

I use the rotary blaster example because in this case the point values for imps and rebs are equal.

On the scratch it seems very attractive to counter an AT-ST with laser RT's but in reality it will not perform very well. You need in minimum 2 of your 3 support Slots for the RT'S and in the most cases the AT will win. In another scenario, if you use all 3 slots with laser RT's to have a realistic propabilty to win you have spend to much points to take an advantage out of this fight.

But I will absolutely agree with your last line.

... what else am I putting in those support slots?

43 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

... what else am I putting in those support slots?

Rotary RT’s! Laser is more expensive and fewer dice. With surge-crit the rotary is actually pretty mean against armor, while being way way better against troopers.

I understand the dissatisfaction with the Ion guns and I am inclined to agree with that. The whole exhaust and using an action to ready it can be annoying and at times you forgot that it’s exhausted and realize you can’t use it this turn when you got your guys placed perfectly. But....I’ve had major success with them. I had two units of troopers equipped with ion guns. It was the deployment stage of the game and I waited for my opponent to place that big ol scary AT-ST before I deployed those particular units. Once he did I placed them directly across from it. And yes I was lucky I had some cover to get to right in front of me. So I got them into position and played the waiting game. I ionized the heck out of that thing. Impact 1 on the ion guns is nice especially against the AT-ST. Almost guaranteeing a hit and with that lonely white defense dice it’s almost certainly going through. Taking actions away from that thing is key. Since the ions can’t be removed until after he activates I would just wait and wait until he activated, removed the tokens and I attacked again so then it was way until the next round before they removed again. So I chipped away at it and eventually brought Luke into base contact and took him down with a swing of the laser sword. I will note that my dice rolls were epic and his were less than kind but that’s the way it goes. That’s what I really love about this game. Yes dice can be great or disastrous but the chess match is just as important for success.

On 4/9/2018 at 10:42 AM, Rettere said:

Rotary RT’s! Laser is more expensive and fewer dice. With surge-crit the rotary is actually pretty mean against armor, while being way way better against troopers.

Where the laser cannon differentiates itself is the range difference. It’s definitely not as across the board efficient as the rotary laser, but you are more likely to be able to sit back and plink an at-st or speeder from range 4 while picking up aim tokens with the laser cannon than you are with the rotary.

Think of Ion troops as a form of objective defense. If you're holding down an objective and you've got vehicles coming your way, why not have them roll up to a couple of ion blasts? Probably damage from impact with the bonus of taking away an activation, in turn increasing the defending unit's survivability on the objective.

I came up with a list at one point that was all about dice. Four Rebel Trooper squads with the extra trooper and a Z-6 along with 3x RTs with the Rotary Blaster. Trying to use probability in my favor with as many dice as possible. This was before I played an actual game.

I've only played 1 to date and my Ion Troopers only managed to die quickly to an AT-ST, but that's because my opponent was afraid of them. My next plan is to take 4x Trooper squads all with Ion. The Ion grenadiers can still use the A-280 rifle so they can save the Ion for when they need it. The AT-RTs are currently kitted with 2x Rotary Blasters and 1x Flamer+Comms Jammer. I want to try this combo on the RT and see how it does.

I think that @Dave Grant is on the right track with list versatility.