To start off with, my group has 4 GMs in it, so we have regular Hash sessions for game ideas, helping each other out to help with settings and giving things to think about. The newest idea I chose to bring here for more opinions.
One of ourGMs wants to run a F&D/AoR game that is an alternate SL. Timeframe will be around 0ABY, but his idea for an alternate timeline started with this"

"What if Palpatine was found out to be the Sith Lord during the Clone Wars and was taken out before Order 66 was issued?"

We've brought a few of the following questions and considerations to him.

"When did they finbd him" He was considering right after episode 2, probably right before Revenge of the Sith.

Other consideration were, if Dooku was still alive, he might be carrying on leading the Separatists in the Clone Wars, so it is most likely still going on.

With a full bloen war going on that's been raging for the past two decades or so, what is going on with the heroes from the original trilogy? Han and Chewie? Are Luke and Leia born or did Anakin and Padme have some other kids that may be Jedi? Is Anakin back toward the light or is he in a gray area? Or did he fall trying to go after Dooku and Grievous?

I'd like to know your opinions to be brought up for this? He's planning on a long campaign.

One thing I learned from playing in a Song of Ice and Fire campaign (We made Darkest timeline westeros! Yes, I know how wildly impossible this sounds) is this:

The Butterfly effect is your Best friend.

The slightest change can have absolutely monumental ripples throughout the course of a story. Characters roles and positions can change dramatically, as can their goals. All of a sudden a character like Obi-Wan may end up with a diminished role in the players story in favor of, say, Shaak-Ti. This means that the GM should ask the following "If X changes, how will it impact on Y?"

In this case, one big thing to consider is the role of Asajj Ventress. If Palpatine was killed at a suitable enough point in the timeline, it is possible Dooku took her under him as a proper apprentice making her an actual Darth. This means her path and role in the story has changed dramatically, and she can fill in the role of a proper dark side threat that can hound the players whilst Dooku and Grievous perhaps take up a more out of focus role.

Another thing to consider is the war itself. If the war has been going on for TWENTY YEARS, it is highly likely that the galaxy is not in a good place. The war was already breaking the bank by the end of the Clone Wars, which means the republic and seperatists both are likely running on fumes at this point. Gone are the vast and grand armies of the republic, replaced instead by a mixed corps of both volunteers and Troopers simply because the republic can't afford to staff the armies they had before. Veteran clone troopers likely are still running things and guiding, but they are getting on in years whilst the newer generation simply aren't as up to snuff due to the source for Jango's DNA probably heavily diminished by this point. Kimino probably also underwent some investigation or purges due to the inhibitor chips and Order 66, making their relationship to the republic strained not only because of dwindling credits but a lack of trust.

The Seperatists are likely doing little better. The droid armies are a legion, but that advantage has likely started to wane in years. More and more they have had to fall back on criminals, Bounty Hunters, volunteers from seperatist territories and even the aid of the Hutt Clans on occassion. Most of the droids are salvaged now, repaired and recycled from whatever has been found both from junk yards and battlefields. This makes the droid armies, much like the republic, a shadow of what they once were. Although, they are holding up slightly better then the republic due to the presence of the Techno Union and Banking Clans, but after twenty years of solid warfare it's only enough to keep them running rather then the ace in the hole it had been once.

The Jedi are much more martial then in the past, their numbers fluctuating. Some have even started to be swayed by Dooku, giving him a small number of darkside acolytes to draw on and for Ventress to command not unlike inquisitors. Most are disillusioned with the Jedi, others simply fell to despair of the war never ending and others just wanted more power and weren't able to be identified as falling early enough due to the council being stretched thin. Some debate has arisen within the order itself of some wishing to withdraw from the war, while others (Such as Anakin, likely now a master) strongly urging them to keep fighting to save the republic.

The galaxy is not in a good way, and recent arrival of Chiss emmissaries herald that there is something far worse lurking in the Unknown regions.

In short: In the grim darkness of the Galaxy far far away, there is only war and right now everyone is losing.

The thing is that Palps orchestrated everything. With him gone, do the Separatists even have the wherewithal to continue the war? Conversely, removing the Chancellor would be likely to fracture the Republic. I’d say it would be likely for both sides to fall apart, with individual systems reclaiming more autonomy. This in turn would lead to smaller conflicts and more chaos all over, weakening the Galaxy for... the Chiss to invade. There’d have to be a new Alliance formed to defend against that invasion, except nobody trusts anybody else - particularly if Sidious’ existence became public knowledge and this lead to suspicions about the Jedi manipulating the Senate too.

Any ousting of Palpatine would not have caused the Republic to fall apart. As a parliamentary republic, they certainly had legal procedures in place to replace him, if it had come down to it. Look at how quickly they elected Palpatine after Chancellor Valorum was ousted.

I saw an idea from one poster a long while ago that mentioned Order 65. It was the failsafe to eliminate the chancellor who had betrayed the republic. The jedi learned of Papa Palp's identity and used it to have him removed. Obi-wan took over as the supreme chancelor and cleaned out a lot of the corruption in the senate.

That's as far as I remember, but it without PP it would be easy enough to say that the CIS cleaned out it's corrupt top and insisting on their independence are a separate state. Now you have two large galactic entities that maintain either a constant warfare or even a cold war between the two with small quiet border skirmishes and a lot of opportunities for espionage and clandestine operations.

2 hours ago, ExileofEnya said:

One thing I learned from playing in a Song of Ice and Fire campaign (We made Darkest timeline westeros! Yes, I know how wildly impossible this sounds) is this:

The Butterfly effect is your Best friend.

The slightest change can have absolutely monumental ripples throughout the course of a story. Characters roles and positions can change dramatically, as can their goals. All of a sudden a character like Obi-Wan may end up with a diminished role in the players story in favor of, say, Shaak-Ti. This means that the GM should ask the following "If X changes, how will it impact on Y?"

In this case, one big thing to consider is the role of Asajj Ventress. If Palpatine was killed at a suitable enough point in the timeline, it is possible Dooku took her under him as a proper apprentice making her an actual Darth. This means her path and role in the story has changed dramatically, and she can fill in the role of a proper dark side threat that can hound the players whilst Dooku and Grievous perhaps take up a more out of focus role.

Another thing to consider is the war itself. If the war has been going on for TWENTY YEARS, it is highly likely that the galaxy is not in a good place. The war was already breaking the bank by the end of the Clone Wars, which means the republic and seperatists both are likely running on fumes at this point. Gone are the vast and grand armies of the republic, replaced instead by a mixed corps of both volunteers and Troopers simply because the republic can't afford to staff the armies they had before. Veteran clone troopers likely are still running things and guiding, but they are getting on in years whilst the newer generation simply aren't as up to snuff due to the source for Jango's DNA probably heavily diminished by this point. Kimino probably also underwent some investigation or purges due to the inhibitor chips and Order 66, making their relationship to the republic strained not only because of dwindling credits but a lack of trust.

The Seperatists are likely doing little better. The droid armies are a legion, but that advantage has likely started to wane in years. More and more they have had to fall back on criminals, Bounty Hunters, volunteers from seperatist territories and even the aid of the Hutt Clans on occassion. Most of the droids are salvaged now, repaired and recycled from whatever has been found both from junk yards and battlefields. This makes the droid armies, much like the republic, a shadow of what they once were. Although, they are holding up slightly better then the republic due to the presence of the Techno Union and Banking Clans, but after twenty years of solid warfare it's only enough to keep them running rather then the ace in the hole it had been once.

The Jedi are much more martial then in the past, their numbers fluctuating. Some have even started to be swayed by Dooku, giving him a small number of darkside acolytes to draw on and for Ventress to command not unlike inquisitors. Most are disillusioned with the Jedi, others simply fell to despair of the war never ending and others just wanted more power and weren't able to be identified as falling early enough due to the council being stretched thin. Some debate has arisen within the order itself of some wishing to withdraw from the war, while others (Such as Anakin, likely now a master) strongly urging them to keep fighting to save the republic.

The galaxy is not in a good way, and recent arrival of Chiss emmissaries herald that there is something far worse lurking in the Unknown regions.

In short: In the grim darkness of the Galaxy far far away, there is only war and right now everyone is losing.

So when are you GM-ing this hmm?

5 hours ago, TheShard said:

So when are you GM-ing this hmm?

Oh, I'm not the one GMing, I just got...a bit carried away in hypothetical (That happens sometimes). I make a rather poor GM and I have quite a lot on my plate as it is, but I am good for setting stuff I've found.

But if you or anyone else you know wish to steal this setup, go right ahead.

Heck, I'd be open to starting a separate topic just to flesh this setting out more and take suggestions just to give people something to use.

What if Dooku understood he was only ever a tool for Palpatine?

Instead of the Sith Rule of Two he started training suitable recruits like he did with Ventriss but carefully coaxed some of the less vocal Separatists into acting directly against the Republic.

All it takes is one lucky strike and more likely Palpatine is openly revealed as a Sith just to prevent the unexpected assassination attempt.

He issues his Order 66 in an attempt to prevent himself being toppled but even with the clone troopers turning on the Jedi they're largely uneffected due to the reveal causing them to pull back from the conflict.

This event allows the Separatists to secure the Outer Rim as the Republic sues for peace to sort out the resulting mess!

Palpatine eventually escapes Coruscant taking whatever forces he controls and quite probably heads into the Unknown Regions to establish his First Order!

So 30 years later the Death Stars appear with Tarkin not Hux in charge!?

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Any ousting of Palpatine would not have caused the Republic to fall apart. As a parliamentary republic, they certainly had legal procedures in place to replace him, if it had come down to it. Look at how quickly they elected Palpatine after Chancellor Valorum was ousted.

There’s quite a bit of difference between concluding it’s time to oust an apparently ineffective chancellor who no longer has any credibility or support and replacing him, and finding out the new chancellor you installed is actually some sort of anti-Jedi who manipulated the Senate for his own gain, masterminded the Separatist uprising and used vast funds to buy a clone army to fight against those same Separatists for some even deeper-hidden dark purpose.

Valorum couldn’t function anymore, but that didn’t say anything about the functioning of the Senate. Palpatine proved that for someone unscrupulous enough, the position of chancellor is far too powerful. He proved the system is deeply flawed.

3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

There’s quite a bit of difference between concluding it’s time to oust an apparently ineffective chancellor who no longer has any credibility or support and replacing him, and finding out the new chancellor you installed is actually some sort of anti-Jedi who manipulated the Senate for his own gain, masterminded the Separatist uprising and used vast funds to buy a clone army to fight against those same Separatists for some even deeper-hidden dark purpose.

Valorum couldn’t function anymore, but that didn’t say anything about the functioning of the Senate. Palpatine proved that for someone unscrupulous enough, the position of chancellor is far too powerful. He proved the system is deeply flawed.

That's irrelevant. Any representative democracy would have contingencies in place in case their current leader was ousted, assassinated, or otherwise removed from office prematurely. It's a built in failsafe . All governments have them except for the most hardened dictatorships.

36 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's irrelevant. Any representative democracy would have contingencies in place in case their current leader was ousted, assassinated, or otherwise removed from office prematurely. It's a built in failsafe . All governments have them except for the most hardened dictatorships.

No, that’s not it. Palpatine demonstrated a failure of the Senate as an institution. They didn’t have their leader removed from office prematurely. They had a leader who abused his office with horrific results. Palpatine exploited the weaknesses of the system. You can’t fix that by putting someone else in his place and pretending everything’s perfect.

3 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

No, that’s not it. Palpatine demonstrated a failure of the Senate as an institution. They didn’t have their leader removed from office prematurely. They had a leader who abused his office with horrific results. Palpatine exploited the weaknesses of the system. You can’t fix that by putting someone else in his place and pretending everything’s perfect.

That's not the point. What Palpatine did while in office has no bearing on whether or not the Republic could survive without him. As a representative democracy, the Republic has laws on the books specifically designed for the potential of any Chancellor needing to be replaced at a moment's notice as a result of some unexpected removal from office whether because he was assassinated, impeached, resigned, etc. That means that if Palpatine had been ousted, all the senate would need to do is nominate new candidates and vote a new Chancellor. It's that simple. Simply put, if Palpatine had been ousted, the Republic would have gone on under a new Chancellor. It's that simple. It's built into the laws of the Republic.

22 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's not the point. What Palpatine did while in office has no bearing on whether or not the Republic could survive without him. As a representative democracy, the Republic has laws on the books specifically designed for the potential of any Chancellor needing to be replaced at a moment's notice as a result of some unexpected removal from office whether because he was assassinated, impeached, resigned, etc. That means that if Palpatine had been ousted, all the senate would need to do is nominate new candidates and vote a new Chancellor. It's that simple. Simply put, if Palpatine had been ousted, the Republic would have gone on under a new Chancellor. It's that simple. It's built into the laws of the Republic.

I have to disagree here. Whether it is built into the laws or not is irrelevant. Wasn't it also built into the laws that the Chancellor was only to serve for 8 years, yet he held on to power for far longer? It would have been an absolutely shocking blow straight to the core of the Republic that their supposed humble leader was in fact a sworn enemy the entire time and had manipulated everything to gain the power he had. How could any institution that had representatives appointed by Palpatine be considered anything other than a subversive threat?

Exposing Palpatine as the Sith Lord would have almost certainly shattered the republic. Who on earth could be trusted to take over in this situation? His "Vice-chancellor" (not sure who that was or if it is even fleshed out). How would the Senate even go about trying to find a replacement? The level of intrigue and suspicion in the Senate could barely keep things together as it was. Now you want them to find a successor to the Chancellorship after its been determined the LEADER of the Republic was also its BIGGEST AND WORST TRAITOR? Sorry, but I think it would be a crazy nightmare.

The laws of the Republic would only be worth what the citizens of the Republic are willing to live by. If the Senate wanted to ignore the laws of the Republic, they would. There are countless real world examples of supposed liberal democracies on earth that ignore their own laws left and right when it serves them.

20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's not the point. What Palpatine did while in office has no bearing on whether or not the Republic could survive without him. As a representative democracy, the Republic has laws on the books specifically designed for the potential of any Chancellor needing to be replaced at a moment's notice as a result of some unexpected removal from office whether because he was assassinated, impeached, resigned, etc. That means that if Palpatine had been ousted, all the senate would need to do is nominate new candidates and vote a new Chancellor. It's that simple. Simply put, if Palpatine had been ousted, the Republic would have gone on under a new Chancellor. It's that simple. It's built into the laws of the Republic.

While that is true, I think you're underestimating how hard electing a new Chancellor could be in these circumstances. Assuming the revelation that Palpatine has been a part of a conspiracy to start the Clone Wars, every Senator that has had any interaction with Palpatine is going to be looked at with suspicion. How many Senators were a part of the conspiracy? How many knew the truth, when did they learn the truth, and how much did they know? Padme and Jar-Jar are going to be torn apart for playing a huge role in Palpatine's rise to power, even though neither one had any idea (as far as we know).

Even when a new Chancellor is eventually elected, any confidence in the Republic will be destroyed. More worlds might leave the Republic because they no longer know if they can trust their elected Senators. And every day that they don't elect a Chancellor is another day with no Supreme Commander of the Army. Unless you immediately go with the Vice Chair as a provisional Chancellor, but that's Mas Amedda, who advised both Valorum and Palpatine. It was even his suggestion to give Palpatine the emergency powers, so I don't think most people would trust him. The Republic might survive the scandal, but not in its current form.

Just now, Magnus Arcanus said:

I have to disagree here. Whether it is built into the laws or not is irrelevant. Wasn't it also built into the laws that the Chancellor was only to serve for 8 years, yet he held on to power for far longer? It would have been an absolutely shocking blow straight to the core of the Republic that their supposed humble leader was in fact a sworn enemy the entire time and had manipulated everything to gain the power he had. How could any institution that had representatives appointed by Palpatine be considered anything other than a subversive threat?

Exposing Palpatine as the Sith Lord would have almost certainly shattered the republic. Who on earth could be trusted to take over in this situation? His "Vice-chancellor" (not sure who that was or if it is even fleshed out). How would the Senate even go about trying to find a replacement? The level of intrigue and suspicion in the Senate could barely keep things together as it was. Now you want them to find a successor to the Chancellorship after its been determined the LEADER of the Republic was also its BIGGEST AND WORST TRAITOR? Sorry, but I think it would be a crazy nightmare.

The laws of the Republic would only be worth what the citizens of the Republic are willing to live by. If the Senate wanted to ignore the laws of the Republic, they would. There are countless real world examples of supposed liberal democracies on earth that ignore their own laws left and right when it serves them.

No. It wouldn't. It wouldn't be the first time the leader of a republic had been ousted for criminal behavior (up to treason). Palpatine remained in power because he was asked to because of the war. Yes, it was through his machinations, but the fact remains that the Senate requested he stay in power during the crisis. Had he followed through and stepped down after the war, they would still have needed to vote a new Chancellor. so the structure for that eventuality is built into the system. The same is true had Palpatine been removed from power by force and arrested for treason. They would simply have elected a new Chancellor. That is the way a republican government works. They all have built in contingencies for any eventuality.

2 minutes ago, terrak37 said:

While that is true, I think you're underestimating how hard electing a new Chancellor could be in these circumstances. Assuming the revelation that Palpatine has been a part of a conspiracy to start the Clone Wars, every Senator that has had any interaction with Palpatine is going to be looked at with suspicion. How many Senators were a part of the conspiracy? How many knew the truth, when did they learn the truth, and how much did they know? Padme and Jar-Jar are going to be torn apart for playing a huge role in Palpatine's rise to power, even though neither one had any idea (as far as we know).

Even when a new Chancellor is eventually elected, any confidence in the Republic will be destroyed. More worlds might leave the Republic because they no longer know if they can trust their elected Senators. And every day that they don't elect a Chancellor is another day with no Supreme Commander of the Army. Unless you immediately go with the Vice Chair as a provisional Chancellor, but that's Mas Amedda, who advised both Valorum and Palpatine. It was even his suggestion to give Palpatine the emergency powers, so I don't think most people would trust him. The Republic might survive the scandal, but not in its current form.

No, I'm not underestimating anything. You are underestimating the strength and resilience of the republican system (not necessarily the Republic, but the representative democracy as a form of government ). Is the the potential of a "shake-up" in the senate? Sure. But that just means more elections, not a collapse of the entire system. The institution would survive.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. It wouldn't. It wouldn't be the first time the leader of a republic had been ousted for criminal behavior (up to treason). Palpatine remained in power because he was asked to because of the war. Yes, it was through his machinations, but the fact remains that the Senate requested he stay in power during the crisis. Had he followed through and stepped down after the war, they would still have needed to vote a new Chancellor. so the structure for that eventuality is built into the system. The same is true had Palpatine been removed from power by force and arrested for treason. They would simply have elected a new Chancellor. That is the way a republican government works. They all have built in contingencies for any eventuality.

No, I'm not underestimating anything. You are underestimating the strength and resilience of the republican system (not necessarily the Republic, but the representative democracy as a form of government ). Is the the potential of a "shake-up" in the senate? Sure. But that just means more elections, not a collapse of the entire system. The institution would survive.

Sorry Tramp, but you need to read history. Ever hear of a guy named Adolf Hitler? How well did those republican Weinmar government laws hold up when Hitler was voted Chancellor of the Reich and just outlawed opposing parties. To say the "Law" would protect the Republic in a situation of Palpatine being outed as a Sith Lord is wrong headed.

Or consider this scenario (and sorry for bring real world politics into this). Donald Trump is determined to be a full blown Russia Spy. Not just collusion, an actual plant by Russia. And he is outed. What do you think happens to the United States Government? You think it just quickly and easily says "Well! I guess Mike Pence is President now! Carry on everyone!"

Not. A. Chance. The opposing party would file a lawsuit against every law, executive order, and appointment made under the Trump administration, calling for these rulings to be annulled. As in , they never happened. The ruling party would probably fracture, some for and some against the President. There is absolutely no way Democrats would accept Pence as President. It is questionable whether the Supreme Court would even swear him in as president. Oh, and that Supreme Court... isn't one of them a Trump nominee? Yeah, that would get contested. I mean I could go on, but enough politics, I am making myself nauseated just thinking about it.

My point here is the laws on the books are only as good as the citizens', bureaucrats', and officials' willingness to uphold those laws. The Republic was on the brink of collapse due to corruption and vice. Revealing Palpatine as Sith Lord? Yeah, I think it collapses real fast. Probably exactly what Palps would want; an easy fail safe against his own failure. If he can't control it all, might as well have it all burn down.

19 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Sorry Tramp, but you need to read history. Ever hear of a guy named Adolf Hitler? How well did those republican Weinmar government laws hold up when Hitler was voted Chancellor of the Reich and just outlawed opposing parties. To say the "Law" would protect the Republic in a situation of Palpatine being outed as a Sith Lord is wrong headed.

Or consider this scenario (and sorry for bring real world politics into this). Donald Trump is determined to be a full blown Russia Spy. Not just collusion, an actual plant by Russia. And he is outed. What do you think happens to the United States Government? You think it just quickly and easily says "Well! I guess Mike Pence is President now! Carry on everyone!"

Not. A. Chance. The opposing party would file a lawsuit against every law, executive order, and appointment made under the Trump administration, calling for these rulings to be annulled. As in , they never happened. The ruling party would probably fracture, some for and some against the President. There is absolutely no way Democrats would accept Pence as President. It is questionable whether the Supreme Court would even swear him in as president. Oh, and that Supreme Court... isn't one of them a Trump nominee? Yeah, that would get contested. I mean I could go on, but enough politics, I am making myself nauseated just thinking about it.

My point here is the laws on the books are only as good as the citizens', bureaucrats', and officials' willingness to uphold those laws. The Republic was on the brink of collapse due to corruption and vice. Revealing Palpatine as Sith Lord? Yeah, I think it collapses real fast. Probably exactly what Palps would want; an easy fail safe against his own failure. If he can't control it all, might as well have it all burn down.

Adolf Hitler was successful in actually taking over and supplanting the German Republic, just as Palpatine was. Remember, Palptatine's rise to power was based upon Hitler's rise to power. However, had Hitler failed the German republic would have still stood. It should also be noted that Germany, at that time, had only been a republic for a couple of decades. Up until the end of WWI, Germany had been a monarchy . This is not the case with the Old Republic. It had been a Republic for thousands of years, and after the Ruusan reformations, had been going steady for a thousand. If Palpatine's schemes had failed , and he been impeached and removed from power , they would simply have elected a new Chancellor. The reason why the Republic fell and became the Empire is because Palpatine was successful in his machinations. Had he been ousted, the Republic would have survived and remained a republic.

In your Donald Trump scenrio, yes, Pence would become President, and if he were removed, the next in line of succession would be. In this scenario, that would be the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Paul Ryan. then, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate, Orrin Hatch, then the Secretary of State, and so on down the line.

Ever watch the TV series Designated Survivor ? That whole series is based upon the laws built into the United States' line of succession should the worst case happen. No matter what, the government would survive as an institution. Every government has a built in line of succession in their laws, so that no matter what, the government would still function. It is that simple.

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Adolf Hitler was successful in actually taking over and supplanting the German Republic, just as Palpatine was. Remember, Palptatine's rise to power was based upon Hitler's rise to power. However, had Hitler failed the German republic would have still stood. It should also be noted that Germany, at that time, had only been a republic for a couple of decades. Up until the end of WWI, Germany had been a monarchy . This is not the case with the Old Republic. It had been a Republic for thousands of years, and after the Ruusan reformations, had been going steady for a thousand. If Palpatine's schemes had failed , and he been impeached and removed from power , they would simply have elected a new Chancellor. The reason why the Republic fell and became the Empire is because Palpatine was successful in his machinations. Had he been ousted, the Republic would have survived and remained a republic.

In your Donald Trump scenrio, yes, Pence would become President, and if he were removed, the next in line of succession would be. In this scenario, that would be the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Paul Ryan. then, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate, Orrin Hatch, then the Secretary of State, and so on down the line.

Ever watch the TV series Designated Survivor ? That whole series is based upon the laws built into the United States' line of succession should the worst case happen. No matter what, the government would survive as an institution. Every government has a built in line of succession in their laws, so that no matter what, the government would still function. It is that simple.

Adolf Hitler was successful, yet I thought there were laws in place to prevent him from becoming dictator. How could that be? If there were laws against, it would have been impossible. I mean, its impossible for a government official to ignore the law. Can't happen. Physically impossible. An avatar of Law would show up and prevent it.

Your view on this is incredibly naive Tramp. Palpatine succeeded in his goals precisely because the Republic was already failing under its own weight. Had his plans been outed earlier, the Republic still would have fallen, it just would have looked differently.

33 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

In your Donald Trump scenrio, yes, Pence would become President, and if he were removed, the next in line of succession would be. In this scenario, that would be the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Paul Ryan. then, the President Pro Tempore of the Senate, Orrin Hatch, then the Secretary of State, and so on down the line.

Ever watch the TV series Designated Survivor ? That whole series is based upon the laws built into the United States' line of succession should the worst case happen. No matter what, the government would survive as an institution. Every government has a built in line of succession in their laws, so that no matter what, the government would still function. It is that simple.

At the very least, there would be questions raised about the eligibility of the VP (and further successors) in light of the scandal. Is someone suspected but not convicted of treason eligible? Should they be? If the VP is suspected of possibly having been complicit, where does that leave things? Swear him in, and you might just have a second president involved in high treason in office. Don’t swear him in, and - as you say - you have someone who by the rules should take office but is blocked based on suspicions. I expect an emergency election would be called, to be honest, but it’s hard to say. It’s not like there has been any precedent. Regardless, even assuming the government would still function the next day doesn’t mean things won’t get very interesting in the months that follow. Half-time election comes up, what does the GOP do? Dems find half a shred of questionable evidence against Pence, be sure they’ll push for impeachment. And at the absolute minimum, both parties will express their outrage and grief and will demand the checks and balances on the office of the president get reviewed. And that’s in the United States of America, not in a vast Galactic Republic. Secession is an incredibly difficult option in the former, but not so much in the latter - and even then it has happened in the US.

As @Magnus Arcanus and @terrak37 have said, the Republic was not in good shape to begin with when Palpatine was sworn in. That’s half the reason the Separatists could wage a successful campaign in the first place. On top of that, all manner of divisive political and military decisions had to be made during the Clone War. Who gets protection and who gets voted ‘expendable’? Who get the lucrative contracts for the Republic’s war effort (other than the Kaminoans) and who gets spurned? Who gets the good positions on influential committees and who is left out? Distrust, envy, despair will strain the relationships between the different members of the Galactic Senate further (particularly since Palatine wants that to happen), and after Sidious would have been exposed and removed, every decision that favoured another system would be looked at with suspicion by those disadvantaged by it. Planet X got clone trooper protection, but planet Y was deemed not important enough? I wonder if X was in league with the chancellor... System Z triples its gross national product the first year of the Clone War and quadruples it again the next? Wouldn’t be surprised if a system that so obviously profits from it had a hand in the machinations that started the whole mess...

Not really where you were going with this thread, but growing up with only the original trilogy, I always imagined that the Clone Wars was a war about clone rights.

One side (the Old Republic) was pro-clone rights. The other side (the one that became the Empire) considered them property.

Now, if you only treated Episodes IV - VI as canon and nothing else, how would you re-write history to actually fit the movies...

22 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Adolf Hitler was successful, yet I thought there were laws in place to prevent him from becoming dictator. How could that be? If there were laws against, it would have been impossible. I mean, its impossible for a government official to ignore the law. Can't happen. Physically impossible. An avatar of Law would show up and prevent it.

Your view on this is incredibly naive Tramp. Palpatine succeeded in his goals precisely because the Republic was already failing under its own weight. Had his plans been outed earlier, the Republic still would have fallen, it just would have looked differently.

Whether there were laws against either of these men from attempting to become a dictator is not the issue. Rather is is what the ramifications for the government if a potential dictator, such as Hitler and Palpatine, failing to to usurp power, and being ousted . That is the key. IF either of them had failed in their attempts to seize power, then the respective republics would have continued on as normal, simply electing a new leader . That is how republics work.

22 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

At the very least, there would be questions raised about the eligibility of the VP (and further successors) in light of the scandal. Is someone suspected but not convicted of treason eligible? Should they be? If the VP is suspected of possibly having been complicit, where does that leave things? Swear him in, and you might just have a second president involved in high treason in office. Don’t swear him in, and - as you say - you have someone who by the rules should take office but is blocked based on suspicions. I expect an emergency election would be called, to be honest, but it’s hard to say. It’s not like there has been any precedent. Regardless, even assuming the government would still function the next day doesn’t mean things won’t get very interesting in the months that follow. Half-time election comes up, what does the GOP do? Dems find half a shred of questionable evidence against Pence, be sure they’ll push for impeachment. And at the absolute minimum, both parties will express their outrage and grief and will demand the checks and balances on the office of the president get reviewed. And that’s in the United States of America, not in a vast Galactic Republic. Secession is an incredibly difficult option in the former, but not so much in the latter - and even then it has happened in the US.

As @Magnus Arcanus and @terrak37 have said, the Republic was not in good shape to begin with when Palpatine was sworn in. That’s half the reason the Separatists could wage a successful campaign in the first place. On top of that, all manner of divisive political and military decisions had to be made during the Clone War. Who gets protection and who gets voted ‘expendable’? Who get the lucrative contracts for the Republic’s war effort (other than the Kaminoans) and who gets spurned? Who gets the good positions on influential committees and who is left out? Distrust, envy, despair will strain the relationships between the different members of the Galactic Senate further (particularly since Palatine wants that to happen), and after Sidious would have been exposed and removed, every decision that favoured another system would be looked at with suspicion by those disadvantaged by it. Planet X got clone trooper protection, but planet Y was deemed not important enough? I wonder if X was in league with the chancellor... System Z triples its gross national product the first year of the Clone War and quadruples it again the next? Wouldn’t be surprised if a system that so obviously profits from it had a hand in the machinations that started the whole mess...

Not true, and certainly not for any of the other successors. For instance, Paul Ryan was Speaker of the House well before Trump was elected. Heck, he was Speaker of the House before Trump even decided to run . This is also true of the President pro Tempore of the Senate. Both men had their positions before the 2016 campaign even began . Pence to was, and still is, well respected in Washington. There is no situation where there would be a complete breakdown in the succession of the Presidency.

The Republic was not in as bad a shape as you think. Was there corruption? Sure there was. Every government has corruption. Was there "endless debate" in the Senate? Yes. There's endless debate in any legislative body. It's par for the course. That does not mean the Republic was irreparably damaged. And, if you remember, it was Palpatine's own machinations which contributed to the political deadlocks in the Senate. Had he been prevented from seizing power, the Republic would have recovered, and continued on as normal, and a new Chancellor would have been elected. It is that simple. The Republic would not have fallen apart.

34 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Whether there were laws against either of these men from attempting to become a dictator is not the issue. Rather is is what the ramifications for the government if a potential dictator, such as Hitler and Palpatine, failing to to usurp power, and being ousted . That is the key. IF either of them had failed in their attempts to seize power, then the respective republics would have continued on as normal, simply electing a new leader . That is how republics work.

Not true, and certainly not for any of the other successors. For instance, Paul Ryan was Speaker of the House well before Trump was elected. Heck, he was Speaker of the House before Trump even decided to run . This is also true of the President pro Tempore of the Senate. Both men had their positions before the 2016 campaign even began . Pence to was, and still is, well respected in Washington. There is no situation where there would be a complete breakdown in the succession of the Presidency.

The Republic was not in as bad a shape as you think. Was there corruption? Sure there was. Every government has corruption. Was there "endless debate" in the Senate? Yes. There's endless debate in any legislative body. It's par for the course. That does not mean the Republic was irreparably damaged. And, if you remember, it was Palpatine's own machinations which contributed to the political deadlocks in the Senate. Had he been prevented from seizing power, the Republic would have recovered, and continued on as normal, and a new Chancellor would have been elected. It is that simple. The Republic would not have fallen apart.

Tramp, considering what I have read of your other posts in other threads, I am going to end this debate with you, as it is pointless. I completely disagree with you, and others have echoed similar positions to my own.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

1) Not true, and certainly not for any of the other successors. For instance, Paul Ryan was Speaker of the House well before Trump was elected. Heck, he was Speaker of the House before Trump even decided to run . This is also true of the President pro Tempore of the Senate. Both men had their positions before the 2016 campaign even began . Pence to was, and still is, well respected in Washington. There is no situation where there would be a complete breakdown in the succession of the Presidency.

2) The Republic was not in as bad a shape as you think. Was there corruption? Sure there was. Every government has corruption. Was there "endless debate" in the Senate? Yes. There's endless debate in any legislative body. It's par for the course. That does not mean the Republic was irreparably damaged. And, if you remember, it was Palpatine's own machinations which contributed to the political deadlocks in the Senate. Had he been prevented from seizing power, the Republic would have recovered, and continued on as normal, and a new Chancellor would have been elected. It is that simple. The Republic would not have fallen apart.

1) if the president/chancellor is removed on Monday, I wouldn’t expect a full governmental breakdown by Tuesday. I would expect more of a reaction than “oh well, on the next” if the reason for that removal is high treason, however.

2) the Galactic Republic was already falling apart . You know the Separatists were thousands of systems who’d seceded from the Republic, right?

19 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

1) if the president/chancellor is removed on Monday, I wouldn’t expect a full governmental breakdown by Tuesday. I would expect more of a reaction than “oh well, on the next” if the reason for that removal is high treason, however.

2) the Galactic Republic was already falling apart . You know the Separatists were thousands of systems who’d seceded from the Republic, right?

It doesn’t matter what the reason is. The government won’t fall apart from a President or Chancellor ( or Prime Minister, whatever) being removed from that position. No matter what the circumstances. Unlike in a dictatorship or absolute monoarchy, a Republic does not depend on one person for its survival or functionality. No individual is indispensable to the running of a Republic. Presidents and Chancellors come and go. The institution survives independently of whoever currently holds the position.

This was my idea and I'm grateful for all of the ideas and opinions. I'm looking to run this as a long game coming soon I hope.