hey guys,

been a LONG time since I've played this wonderful game but given the recent FAQ and some facebook activity I'm interested in playing at least a few games in the future

I'm interested in a bunch of new upgrades that have come out, especially in how they may or may not make the VSD that much cooler.

I've already proxied Moff JJ so I know he's the bee's knees, but what about cards such as External Racks (seems I only get one close range attack per game, anyway), Quad Battery Turrets, and Early Warning Systems (with Minister Tua, to compensate for having puny anti-squadron defense). I'd be using them in conjunction with Veteran Gunners, which I think are essential when you're investing 90ish points into attacks that can utterly whiff

also 7th Fleet Star Destroyer sounds cool, since my only imperial ships are an ISD (strategic advisor seems awesome) and two VSDs, which come out to 92 points (with skilled first officer) and 100 points (Tua + EWS) each

course this is all based on the VSD-1, since any thought of VSD-2 disposable Capacitors jank is tempered by the dang things coming out to ISD-2 prices (which is extra sad because I like Avenger with blue dice and even Quad Laser Turret synergy)

so, how does the humble VSD fare nowadays?

Sadly with a new focus on large ships and Raddus being around, I've found the VSD to slow to escape, or not fast enough to engage.

It's a ship easily targeted and eliminated without packing the punch it needs to take on large ships.

I love me the VSD, 1 or 2. I have a version of a VSD2 that can absolutely wreck squadrons (warlord/H9/ruthless) but again, you're paying for the cost of an ISD by that point. So why not just take an ISD.

The reality is, that since it was a wave 1 ship, it was balanced for then. In actuality, it likely needs to be about 8-10 points cheaper then it is.

If it was, I'd bring it along more often. But ISD's are just usually the better option.

BUT, with the new changes and no more flot spam, it may be able to swing a slight comeback.

So in ending.

It's not in a terrible place, it's gotten quite a bit of love, but that love still can't overcome some of it's inherent flaws.

that's unfortunate

the other fleet I was considering is an interaction I don't know will quite work or not, involving an MC-80 Command Variant with Flight Commander, Rapid Launch Bays, and Engine Techs stuffed with B-wings or maybe SCURRG

with General D, I could fit two good ol' CR-90s with TLRCs and a Toyrn Farr Bright Hope with Jan Oars and 3 Yt-1300s to either push at the enemy or to vary up the MC-80's squadron compliment. Not sure if the 3 named X-wings wouldn't be a better idea.

mostly just want to unload a Quad-Battery Defiance into a ship before disgorging 6 B-wing dice + a Jan Ors

Just say No to Veteran Gunners. That slot is what Ordnance Experts are for. (Or Gunnery Teams on the VSD-2--maybe.)

Remember, with VG you must re-roll your entire dice pool. No keeping the black dice that came up hit+crit.

In case you haven't read it: http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/02/imperial-ship-review-victory-class-star.html?m=1

First off I’m totally casual in Armada so I can’t really comment on the competitive scene. I’ve developed a love for VSDs over the last two waves. I find Dispoable Capacitors really good. A cheap, reasonable build adds Quad Battery Turrets and SW7s. I love the Warlord/H9 build and sometimes add Quad Laser Turrets - squadrons never attack you then - and have been toying with the idea of Ordnance Pods on it.

I actually find the Vic 2 to be quite useful these days - more so than the 1, really, which is an odd juxtaposition.

I run mine with gunnery teams, disposable capacitors, quad battery turrets, and I waver back and forth between leading shots.

That's only 100 points (104 with the ion cannons), which is significantly cheaper than a properly kitted out isd of any variant, and a significant long-range threat.

11 minutes ago, elbmc1969 said:

Just say No to Veteran Gunners. That slot is what Ordnance Experts are for. (Or Gunnery Teams on the VSD-2--maybe.)

Remember, with VG you must re-roll your entire dice pool. No keeping the black dice that came up hit+crit.

FWIW, I've often left the gunnery slot empty on VSDs. Part of their charm is running them cheap, and there are other ways to get re-rolls.

Specifically, a VSD build I've used with some success is:

VSD2 (85)
+ Disposable Capacitors (3)
+ Leading Shots (4)
+ Quad Battery Turrets (5)
===
97 pts

That's a pretty solid ship, with a heck of an initial salvo when an enemy enters long range - 3 red and 4 blue is nothing to sneeze at. Especially if you time a con fire dial to add a red - 4 red and 4 blue is an ISD2's firepower, and you are getting it at 97 pts instead of 120, with rerolls built in. (And yeah, it's true that gunnery teams do get tempting here, since disposable caps is a use-it-once, but it works the whole turn thing - being able to get two shots out the front is...nice)

I particularly like the combo of QBT + Leading shots, though. The blue dice added by QBT doesn't care about range, so even without disposable caps your long-range shots will usually end up 3 red and 1 blue, giving you a blue dice to burn for red rerolls.

actually being able to field VSD-2s would be hilarious, though I know I'd never field them without leading (blankouts happen even without green dice) and gunnery team (which sort of doubles their damage output, even if you don't stack it on the same ship)

they come out at 105 each with skilled first officer, though. Not sure how I'll fit an ISD in there. Kinda seems like you'd need an ISD-1 for close range firepower, but the Kuat Refit (which I don't own) just seems better since it basically gets you minister Tua without filling up your Officer slot (strategic advisor!). I guess it'd be Boarding Troopers Avenger with leading shots, external racks, and blast doors (don't know if necessary)

basically got no room for squadrons, though

I can also go down to two VSD-1s with Quads/Racks/ORdnance Experts, an ISD-2 (strat. advisor, gunnery, quads, leading, avenger -maybe redundant-, early warning), with Moth JJ, Black Squadron + Interceptor + Soontir + Cienna as there's apparently a Sloane lover or two in the group and Soonts is the only way I can think of of getting around intel. Or maybe it's better just to spring for a Raider with instigator?

I take it 7th Fleet Star Destroyer isn't particularly important?

50 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

actually being able to field VSD-2s would be hilarious, though I know I'd never field them without leading (blankouts happen even without green dice) and gunnery team (which sort of doubles their damage output, even if you don't stack it on the same ship)

they come out at 105 each with skilled first officer, though. Not sure how I'll fit an ISD in there. Kinda seems like you'd need an ISD-1 for close range firepower, but the Kuat Refit (which I don't own) just seems better since it basically gets you minister Tua without filling up your Officer slot (strategic advisor!). I guess it'd be Boarding Troopers Avenger with leading shots, external racks, and blast doors (don't know if necessary)

basically got no room for squadrons, though

I can also go down to two VSD-1s with Quads/Racks/ORdnance Experts, an ISD-2 (strat. advisor, gunnery, quads, leading, avenger -maybe redundant-, early warning), with Moth JJ, Black Squadron + Interceptor + Soontir + Cienna as there's apparently a Sloane lover or two in the group and Soonts is the only way I can think of of getting around intel. Or maybe it's better just to spring for a Raider with instigator?

I take it 7th Fleet Star Destroyer isn't particularly important?

I personally like the VSD-2s with Quad Battery Turrets, Leading Shots, and Disposable Capacitors. They can use leading shots at long range to make the dice less fickle if you are shooting at something faster than you. (Almost always!) It can put out alot of firepower downrange in one turn to cripple if not outright destroy a small 1 command ship.

VSD-1s I have been finding trouble in how to field since Quasars took the carrier role from them. Quads are still good for the blue dice and Ordnance racks add some extra firepower, but you have to get that one good arc shot otherwise I feel like it is a waste of points when you have other options.

I plan on testing out the VSD-1s a bit more in my custom campaign as they are a decent challenge to my rebels.

Heavy Ion Emplacements are expensive, but can be amusing ...

SW-7s are certainly an alternative to LS. They don't do anything for red dice, but can be a lot more useful in the later game, especially.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

I take it 7th Fleet Star Destroyer isn't particularly important?

Too expensive, really. Not worth it without at least 3 copies, and at that point, you have very few build options.

3x VSD-II w/ QBT + LS + DC
1x Glad-II for some light AA cover
Jerry on one of the VSD-IIs

...you can put 7th Fleet on all four of those ships and get a list at 396 pts. Not something easy to attack from the front, but otherwise? Meh. The problem is that EWS exists, which is frankly just better. More limited as to where you can put it, of course. 3xISD-Kuat w/ EWS is so much harder to destroy (of course, it also has a fraction of the firepower at anything but close range, so...YMMV on which you value).

EWS fun as all heck, especially given some local grumblings about Sloane's power

Worried about antisquadron capabilities given I'm locked into VSDs and an ISD, but hopefully it helps

I'd imagine it's also irritating at long range on ships that can evade, but that's definitely not a star destroyer we're talking about

going off of the antisquadron question, though, do I bother with Black Squadron + Soontir + Cienna + Interceptor as a token anti-squadron force or do I try to fit in two Gonzatis for flak + activations instead? there's 55 points of squadrons which can go to 61 points if I drop VSD ordnance experts, leaving just quads and racks. That's two assault gonzati, one with repair crew or both with comm nets (possibly one kallus)

Not really sure where the VSD-I fits in the current meta. @TallGiraffe nails the problem with them, above - they were always decent carriers, but the Quasar Fires are just better carriers. The problem with the VSD-I is that you just flat-out never get to use the black dice - the ships are too slow to 'catch' anything, or even control the range in an engagement. So if your enemy wants to engage in red or blue range but not black range - you can't do anything to interfere with that plan to force black range. And if you are looking at the red dice, alone...well, there's the Arquitens for so much less cost and with better speed anyway...

10 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Not really sure where the VSD-I fits in the current meta. @TallGiraffe nails the problem with them, above - they were always decent carriers, but the Quasar Fires are just better carriers. The problem with the VSD-I is that you just flat-out never get to use the black dice - the ships are too slow to 'catch' anything, or even control the range in an engagement. So if your enemy wants to engage in red or blue range but not black range - you can't do anything to interfere with that plan to force black range. And if you are looking at the red dice, alone...well, there's the Arquitens for so much less cost and with better speed anyway...

Don't even get me started on the problems with the Arquitens!

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Black Squadron + Soontir + Cienna + Interceptor

I find Cienna plus Valen Rudor a great pairing and some TIE Fighters backed up with activations (VSD1 makes a decent carrier with Expanded Hanger Bay and Flight Controllers).

Karnek made some good points in his response.

I'm still of the opinion that the VSD is too slow and/or too under-protected to last for long in a universe filled with the current playing pieces we have. It can't move fast enough to commit the second row of dice without help (which is why VSD-Is have problems being something other than carriers), and the inevitable monster heavies will still utterly destroy them because they have no way to guarantee using their brace. No contain means they're also susceptible to crit effects.... and they're too expensive to be considered throwaway assets where lacking that kind of protection doesn't matter.

VSD-IIs with D-Caps work because that's one of the only ways to project 6-dice downrange on a first strike. Couple with Leading shots or Vader or some re-roll and that's an impressive amount of damage possible on an initial volley. This is one thing VSDs can do that other ships can't, and if you combine this with Jerjerrod/Thrawn to help you keep the forward arc on target you can get some use out of them.

...They have some advantage over the Quasar in such that Quasars really don't like getting shot at. I find with a quasar you have to make the most of your fighter strikes or suffer the consequences. For as hapless as the VSD is when shot at by XI7s with an accuracy, they have more protection to them than Quasars.

And what's wrong with the Arquitens (if I should ask here...). I find they're great ships... as long as you don't expect more out of them than they're capable of. They're great standoff attack ships with good upgrade capabilities to level a steady amount of pressure on a target. With three of them I've taken down monster heavies before taking casualties.

7 hours ago, Karneck said:

since it was a wave 1 ship, it was balanced for then.

No it wasn't. The VSD2 was always overpriced until DCaps and QBT showed up to make it awesome.

But they are awesome now.

Granted, a little less awesome in W7 than they were in 6. They're a second-order casualty of the fall from grace of small ships in general and flotillas in particular, because they were particularly strong as early alpha-strike threats to flotillas. But they still generally hold up well in fleet engagements in my experience, as long as they're used as part of a strategy that accounts for their lack of speed.

I don't think they're really a component of any top-tier fleets atm, but that doesn't mean the ship itself isn't strong. If anything, I think the VSD2 is in a better spot than the 1 right now.

16 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

No it wasn't. The VSD2 was always overpriced until DCaps and QBT showed up to make it awesome.

But they are awesome now.

Granted, a little less awesome in W7 than they were in 6. They're a second-order casualty of the fall from grace of small ships in general and flotillas in particular, because they were particularly strong as early alpha-strike threats to flotillas. But they still generally hold up well in fleet engagements in my experience, as long as they're used as part of a strategy that accounts for their lack of speed.

I don't think they're really a component of any top-tier fleets atm, but that doesn't mean the ship itself isn't strong. If anything, I think the VSD2 is in a better spot than the 1 right now.

Totally agree the 2 is in a better spot. Of course, now that small ships are going to be an active part of fleets thanks to the flotilla nerf, DCap 2's are still very solid and could actually become a part of a strong fleet. (I'm not going to run them, cause, you know, Rebel, but I've seen many of our locals do well with them)

interesting that the VSD-2 was at least given a niche

only problem is fitting two of them and an isd into a list

I think it'd be best to get an ISD-1 in to contrast their medium range firepower with its close range firepower...but the Kuat just seems better in absolutely every way to run a Boarding Troops + Avenger build

I mean, it only has 2 squadron, but does that make that much of a difference next to the external racks it gets to pack?

still the issue of tackling enemy squadrons with so few points left to throw around. You get two capacitors/leading shots/quad/gunnery VSD-2s, 1 strategic advisor/avenger/boarding/reinforced blast doors/external racks/leading shops Kuat, and I guess an assault gonzati with kallus?

21 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

interesting that the VSD-2 was at least given a niche

only problem is fitting two of them and an isd into a list

I think it'd be best to get an ISD-1 in to contrast their medium range firepower with its close range firepower...but the Kuat just seems better in absolutely every way to run a Boarding Troops + Avenger build

I mean, it only has 2 squadron, but does that make that much of a difference next to the external racks it gets to pack?

still the issue of tackling enemy squadrons with so few points left to throw around. You get two capacitors/leading shots/quad/gunnery VSD-2s, 1 strategic advisor/avenger/boarding/reinforced blast doors/external racks/leading shops Kuat, and I guess an assault gonzati with kallus?

What about something like this?

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=173831&key=dafee6b7012999f13d11dc0b06b77f56

Not sure it's particularly good, but it has some interesting synergies. Obviously the Chimaera swaps out the fleet command for 'Intensify Firepower' pretty much right away, and the gozer keeps feeding it con fire tokens via the comms net. That helps the Victories with their red dice some, as well as the ship's own attack, and gives the Gozer an auto-damage attack as well which ain't nothing. Fighters...shouldn't be much of a problem? Both Kallus and Ruthless Strategist actually combo with almost all the upgrades on the ship - Quad Lasers Turrets, ordnance pods, regular attack...

Theoretically, a squadron could attack the ship, and get return fire of 1 blue (counter) + 1 black (Kallus) + 1 auto damage as long as a TIE Bomber is nearby, then the ship fires it's anti-squadron attack and it takes 1 blue + 1 black + 1 black (Kallus) + 1 auto damage, then at the end of the turn the Ordnance Pods go off for another 1 black + 1 black (Kallus) + 1 auto damage.

Squadrons - certainly unique ones, anyway - won't be getting near that ship.

18 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

only problem is fitting two of them and an isd into a list

Motti will help there, but why do you need to fit 2 into a list? One VSD, one ISD is a solid start, and then you can make other additions as needed, but I don't think you necessarily need TWO VSDs, really.

5 minutes ago, xanderf said:

What about something like this?

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=173831&key=dafee6b7012999f13d11dc0b06b77f56

Not sure it's particularly good, but it has some interesting synergies. Obviously the Chimaera swaps out the fleet command for 'Intensify Firepower' pretty much right away, and the gozer keeps feeding it con fire tokens via the comms net. That helps the Victories with their red dice some, as well as the ship's own attack, and gives the Gozer an auto-damage attack as well which ain't nothing. Fighters...shouldn't be much of a problem? Both Kallus and Ruthless Strategist actually combo with almost all the upgrades on the ship - Quad Lasers Turrets, ordnance pods, regular attack...

Theoretically, a squadron could attack the ship, and get return fire of 1 blue (counter) + 1 black (Kallus) + 1 auto damage as long as a TIE Bomber is nearby, then the ship fires it's anti-squadron attack and it takes 1 blue + 1 black + 1 black (Kallus) + 1 auto damage, then at the end of the turn the Ordnance Pods go off for another 1 black + 1 black (Kallus) + 1 auto damage.

Squadrons - certainly unique ones, anyway - won't be getting near that ship.

It's a good start, but those VSD-IIs DESPERATELY want Gunnery Teams/Leading Shots, the TIE Bombers aren't going to do anything but die, and I'm not sure you need the Chimaera title/ability or Ruthless Strategists. Ordnance Pods are.... there? I haven't played with them, but why not External Racks to ensure that you can kill whatever you face faster? Also, why would I hit the ISD with squadrons when I can hit the VSDs much faster and easier, and the TIE bombers will get shot and die almost IMMEDIATELY.

With the new flotilla nerf in effect, i think you'd want to just drive right towards the carriers quickly. If you kill them fast enough, they lose everything and die. The DCaps will help with that, as will the Gunnery Teams/Leading Shots. But again, I question the need for 2 VSDs, personally.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

It's a good start, but those VSD-IIs DESPERATELY want Gunnery Teams/Leading Shots, the TIE Bombers aren't going to do anything but die, and I'm not sure you need the Chimaera title/ability or Ruthless Strategists. Ordnance Pods are.... there? I haven't played with them, but why not External Racks to ensure that you can kill whatever you face faster? Also, why would I hit the ISD with squadrons when I can hit the VSDs much faster and easier, and the TIE bombers will get shot and die almost IMMEDIATELY.

Yeah, VSDs want gunnery teams, but what can ya do on a budget? FWIW, I don't think leading shots is as needed if you take the fleet command - intensify firepower guarantees that at least ONE of the reds is a 'hit', and blue results are all good as long as you have some damage to go with them.

And yup, TIE Bombers are there to die. Specifically and intentionally, they are feeding Ruthless Strategist and that's it. That's 10 more damage on enemy squadrons. (Which is part of the reason Ordnance Pods are there - I wouldn't take them on their own, but when paired with Kallus and Ruthless Strategist...that's a likely 2 damage on all enemy squads in that arc, beyond everything else that happened in the turn. That's not bad.)

It needs to be two vsd and an ISD because that's all the empire I own (sans squadrons)

1 minute ago, xanderf said:

Yeah, VSDs want gunnery teams, but what can ya do on a budget? FWIW, I don't think leading shots is as needed if you take the fleet command - intensify firepower guarantees that at least ONE of the reds is a 'hit', and blue results are all good as long as you have some damage to go with them.

And yup, TIE Bombers are there to die. Specifically and intentionally, they are feeding Ruthless Strategist and that's it. That's 10 more damage on enemy squadrons. (Which is part of the reason Ordnance Pods are there - I wouldn't take them on their own, but when paired with Kallus and Ruthless Strategist...that's a likely 2 damage on all enemy squads in that arc, beyond everything else that happened in the turn. That's not bad.)

But as soon as I do a substantial squadron command, the TIE bombers get shot and die. Without a bid, they're gonna explode and FAST when I send 3 squadrons after them. If you use the Kuat to send them at me and then flak, that's a bad use of the dial. If you send them at me with the Gozanti for next turn's Ruthless, I shoot them and kill them and you don't get to Ruthless me. I'd rather see the points devoted to either interceptor squadrons (Ciena/Valen, for example) or potentially even squadronless if you're feeling crazy/Motti enough.

Something like this maybe?

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=173835&key=10a215347ca8a612f45d3df541e8754a

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

It needs to be two vsd and an ISD because that's all the empire I own (sans squadrons)

I'd borrow the Raider and Gozanti if you can, limiting yourself to only those few ships can cause issues quickly...