21 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

well reinforce was adapted for non-huge ships

hopefully the jam adaptation is just the new jam tokens and nothing else

given jam is " To perform the Jam action, a huge ship chooses one enemy ship at Range 1-2 and assigns Stress tokens until the ship has 2 total stress tokens. " it could easily up assign Jam tokens until the ship has 1 total token, or just assign a Jam token

Reinforce was adapted because small ships don't have sections. In every other aspect, they function identical.

Jam has no reason to be nerfed, aside from wanting it to be weaker. The stress part was removed, so you can't alter movement (giving stress to k-turning ships before they moved), so the stress was changed/nerfed into Jam tokens. BUT the number of them should be unaffected.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

2 Jam tokens!

No other epic action was changed in terms of power. The mechanics might have changed, but their relative power is the same.

Jam tokens are weaker than Stress tokens, stress preventing more actions AND movements.

Epic Jam gives 2 stress tokens in range 1-2.

BELIEVE!

A common misconception. Jam keeps giving stress tokens until the target has two. So you cannot use something like Yorr to get around it. If Reaper Jam does something like that, it will be nuts awesome.

it won't, because that's just silly

see, Jam tokens are removed along with a respective TL/Focus/Evade token as soon they're applied, so if you're following the epic model you're stripping off all those token modifiers and THEN applying more tokens until jammed

it's either going to assign 1, or assign 1 if the target is not already jammed

or it'll be a die roll because FFG sucks sometimes

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it won't, because that's just silly

see, Jam tokens are removed along with a respective TL/Focus/Evade token as soon they're applied, so if you're following the epic model you're stripping off all those token modifiers and THEN applying more tokens until jammed

it's either going to assign 1, or assign 1 if the target is not already jammed

or it'll be a die roll because FFG sucks sometimes

Tell me what do you base your assumption that it will assign 1. I told you why I think it will. You keep repeating your opinion, without anything to base it on.

Why are you so sure? What makes you think that? What do you base this on?

Back to the point of the card. Definitely Kallus is one you have to remember and can be easily missed or forgotten especially in later subsequent games of a tournament.

My wife loves flying him on the TIE Bomber as a solid option, as well as the classic Phantom. Really good for the 2-3 ship meta right now, and with swarms not returning anytime soon Kallus is always a good choice.

Also Kallus and RAC Decimator means you almost never need to take a focus again. Being able to change two dice a round is epic

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Tell me what do you base your assumption that it will assign 1. I told you why I think it will. You keep repeating your opinion, without anything to base it on.

Why are you so sure? What makes you think that? What do you base this on?

I base it on the fact that two jam tokens is silly

think about it, you're spending one action to **** over your opponent twice. Remember, every single jam token knocks off a focus/evade/TL:



So if your one action wipes out two of your opponent's, you're doubling up on action efficiency without any further investment on the base chassis. Unlike in epic, where you're taking an epic-only huge ship worth generally more than most small/large ships, you're bringing a low 20s point small base ship. The huge ship is facing off against 300/400 points of enemy ships, including the one it jams. The reaper is facing off against 100. One jam action at 100 points affects FAR more of the opponent's list than one jam action in epic.

Finally, jam capable huge ships can't attack while the reaper has a solid 3-die primary

Plus, this new jam has an immediate effect. If your gr-75 jams soontir fel, he takes 1 or 2 more stress but hangs onto his focus + evade (and gets more focus from the stress). If your reaper jams soontir fel, soontir immediately has to lose a focus or evade which makes him more vulnerable to shots on the same turn. It is more powerful than stress where immediate modifiers are concerned, except in the specific case of expertise

it also **** over ships who need their tokens to fire ordnance. Just jam them and bam, they can't fire their ordnance at all that turn

a straight 1-1 translation of these mechanics is impossible.

in short, assigning two of these jam tokens at a time via a single action is absurdly, hilariously broken

there are two in the pack because nothing states that Jam tokens fall off on their own (such as ion), so they stick around until your opponent has a token for them to knock off. If the jammed ship never acquires a focus/evade/lock, the jam just sorta hangs on them like a persistent zit.

EDIT: and if you follow the model of "choose one enemy ship at Range 1-2 and assign jam tokens until the ship has 2 total [jam] tokens", you'd actually be jamming upwards of 3-5 times because you'd have to knock off all of the targeted ship's tokens before your jam tokens start to stick

I do not exaggerate when I say that two-jams per action would break the game so hard that you'd see nothing but Ghost + Fenn and commando Wookies (reinforce isn't affected by jam)

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

I base it on the fact that two jam tokens is silly

think about it, you're spending one action to **** over your opponent twice. Remember, every single jam token knocks off a focus/evade/TL:



So if your one action wipes out two of your opponent's, you're doubling up on action efficiency without any further investment on the base chassis. Unlike in epic, where you're taking an epic-only huge ship worth generally more than most small/large ships, you're bringing a low 20s point small base ship. The huge ship is facing off against 300/400 points of enemy ships, including the one it jams. The reaper is facing off against 100. One jam action at 100 points affects FAR more of the opponent's list than one jam action in epic.

Finally, jam capable huge ships can't attack while the reaper has a solid 3-die primary

Plus, this new jam has an immediate effect. If your gr-75 jams soontir fel, he takes 1 or 2 more stress but hangs onto his focus + evade (and gets more focus from the stress). If your reaper jams soontir fel, soontir immediately has to lose a focus or evade which makes him more vulnerable to shots on the same turn. It is more powerful than stress where immediate modifiers are concerned, except in the specific case of expertise

it also **** over ships who need their tokens to fire ordnance. Just jam them and bam, they can't fire their ordnance at all that turn

a straight 1-1 translation of these mechanics is impossible.

in short, assigning two of these jam tokens at a time via a single action is absurdly, hilariously broken

there are two in the pack because nothing states that Jam tokens fall off on their own (such as ion), so they stick around until your opponent has a token for them to knock off. If the jammed ship never acquires a focus/evade/lock, the jam just sorta hangs on them like a persistent zit.

EDIT: and if you follow the model of "choose one enemy ship at Range 1-2 and assign jam tokens until the ship has 2 total [jam] tokens", you'd actually be jamming upwards of 3-5 times because you'd have to knock off all of the targeted ship's tokens before your jam tokens start to stick

1. It might be a bit silly, but when has that EVER stopped FFG from doing something? Pre wave-8 wouldn't you have assumed that FFG would NEVER make a bomber that is able to reposition and bomb someone, before they get a chance to react? That is silly. It is in the game.

2. Yes, you are right. Jam would be more powerful on small ships than it is on Huge ships. Just like Coordinate and Reinforce. Not only does the wookiee ship have an agility value, but it is also much smaller, making it a harder target. I don't need to go in how much better the Phantom II is at coordinating, than every other ship with that action, do I?

I could go into detail how fundamentally better Coordinate and Reinforce are in 100/6, just like you did with Jam. I see no point to it. My point is not that it wouldn't be powerful. I know it would be powerful. That's a given.

3. You mean to say that neither the Gozanti, nor the C-ROC has the ability to attack? Or you mean to say that 1 of the 3 epic ships that have access to Jam can't attack? It's not the same thing.

4. Yes, Jam tokens and stress tokens are different. I wouldn't necessarily call either one of them more powerful than the other. Stress can restrict your movement, and force you to move differently. Depending on the dial, and the situation, stress can be waaay more devastating at the right time. The stress given by the Epic Jam action also removes the ability to do ANY action, including reposition, which is, again, depending on the ship can be massively important.

Jam can prevent you from using your secondary weapons and takes away your tokens.

Both can change the course of a game, if used correctly.

But them being different doesn't mean they are not comparable.

5. Yes, Jam would be broken. Your point being? Is there not broken stuff in the game already? Do we not have precedent for broken stuff being published? Do we have confirmation that FFG is dedicated to remove all broken stuff from the game, and will never ever ever create something that is broken?

I'm not arguing that in a perfect world Jam should give 2 jam tokens. I'm not even arguing that it will.

I'm just saying that we don't know, and from all other similar adaptations of epic actions, we can conclude that Jam might give out 2 tokens, and there is no evidence against this claim. However sure you seem to be, anything could happen.

PS. The only reason I could imagine Jam giving out only 1 jam token, is because FFG only ever seems to be paying attention to the Imperial Powercurve.

PS 2:

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

I do not exaggerate when I say that two-jams per action would break the game so hard that you'd see nothing but Ghost + Fenn and commando Wookies (reinforce isn't affected by jam)

Kinda like now?

It's almost as if the game broke, even before the Reaper came out.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Kinda like now?

It's almost as if the game broke, even before the Reaper came out.

lol no

I'm not happy with VCX fenn existing, but other lists can do well. QD + double silencers with FCS and optics can do well. Kylo + qd + epsilon ace won system open. high ps poon alpha is still a thing. Even palp aces are somehow still around

but you introduce double jam reapers and these lists are gone , and I mean gone

you just saunter up to any of these ships, jam, and they're completely modless. They can't fire poons, can't do a **** thing, and you'll win because you won't be jammed and have one more ship. Then you'll literally only be left with the VCX, sheathe, auzzie, and Rey.

Jam is incredibly powerful, and if mishandled it'll just be incredibly broken. and I mean worse than torpscouts broken, easily

it is very difficult to overstate that even one Jam token is very powerful and may in fact be the reason you ever use the Reaper, apart from it being just another palp shuttle. Jam is THE reason Major Vermeil has a good ability, and why he could be very legit with LWF and Kallus. Just think about how detested Fenn Rau is because of hotshot and his ability locking down token mods, and then imagine him being non-unique, arc-independent, more durable and packing a 3 die primary.

that is unless the jam eats your entire attack, like the beam or scrambler missiles, but I don't see a Weapon's disabled token in that pack

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

lol no

I'm not happy with VCX fenn existing, but other lists can do well. QD + double silencers with FCS and optics can do well. Kylo + qd + epsilon ace won system open. high ps poon alpha is still a thing. Even palp aces are somehow still around

but you introduce double jam reapers and these lists are gone , and I mean gone

you just saunter up to any of these ships, jam, and they're completely modless. They can't fire poons, can't do a **** thing, and you'll win because you won't be jammed and have one more ship. Then you'll literally only be left with the VCX, sheathe, auzzie, and Rey.

Jam is incredibly powerful, and if mishandled it'll just be incredibly broken. and I mean worse than torpscouts broken, easily

it is very difficult to overstate that even one Jam token is very powerful and may in fact be the reason you ever use the Reaper, apart from it being just another palp shuttle. Jam is THE reason Major Vermeil has a good ability, and why he could be very legit with LWF and Kallus.

that is unless the jam eats your entire attack, like the beam or scrambler missiles, but I don't see a Weapon's disabled token in that pack

I mean...

The reaper is at best PS8 with 2 Agi. Still arc-locked. Probably not a great dial.

Even if it Jams, and removes your offensive modifications, don't tell me that you couldn't beat it with ANY arc dodger list. Silencers especially can ruin its day. They have built in defensive and offensive mods (plus the best dial in the game... Even if this thing has a forced Move, I bet the Silencer can keep up with it)

Soontir eats this thing for breakfast. Even if it gives a gazillion jamming tokens.
Stress builds eat this thing. It has a lot of red maneuvers (Although I suspect the title might do sth with red moves)
TIE-D-s eat this thing. They ion it out of existence.

PLUS, if Jam is Range 1-2, Range 3 missile alphas can still wreck it.

This is not a turret. It cares about arcs. It cares about range. It has counter play options.


You talk about this as if raw jousting efficiency is the only thing that matters.

Sure Jam is really strong. But it wouldn't break the game if it gave two.

So sounds like some proxy play testing is in order. Fly some popular Mets lists against a list including a Lambda with jam (one token or two, do both!) and white turns. Or use a Punisher and give it a red stop. Either way it’s the jam that seems to be the factor that makes it breaks this argument.

Kallus is so much epic against list with 2 up to 4 Ships. You put the token on the most effektiv ship. Than destroy the others and have a nice endgame.

Kallus and Kylo bring also the imperial Firespray back to competitiv play. A Firespray like Kath with Lone Wulf, Kallus, Mangler, Bomblet and EU is incredible good. You have all the good things on one ship. Super solid defence. Super solid offensive. Autodamage. Controll elements - and a fast ship.

The problem was the other part of the List. For 47 Points you need a ship with much the same endgame abilitys. But there was no ship. But now comes Kylo - 47 points with standard eqip - and fills the gab.

K3

Kath Scarlet (38)
Lone Wolf (2)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Agent Kallus (2)
Bomblet Generator (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Andrasta (0)

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Push the Limit (3)
Advanced Sensors (3)
Advanced Optics (2)
Autothrusters (2)
First Order Vanguard (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

You can beat near everything. Mangler, Kath ability and Kylos condition are a huge synergy. And with the incredible maneuverability from Kylo, its so easy to gain fully benefit from Lone Wulf that Kallus feels it like a 24-hour working day.

I manage to reach Top4 in a Regional in Germany. All thanks to Kallus. It was noticed by Mynock Sq Podcast. And now a friend with nearly no practice with this list reach the second stage from SoS Hannover with 3:0. Myself was lucky beaten by Jack Mooney and Nymranda at the same tournament. It was far from knowing how these games turn out and the third list list with Timewalk Asajj and Range1 Boba was clearly beaten.

What I need to say: The Meta is so much more than Ghost-Fen or Nymranda or Reylow. Kallus is in this way a beacon for the imps and he is so much underestimated.

Play it!

13 hours ago, Dalli said:

Kallus is so much epic against list with 2 up to 4 Ships. You put the token on the most effektiv ship. Than destroy the others and have a nice endgame.

Kallus and Kylo bring also the imperial Firespray back to competitiv play. A Firespray like Kath with Lone Wulf, Kallus, Mangler, Bomblet and EU is incredible good. You have all the good things on one ship. Super solid defence. Super solid offensive. Autodamage. Controll elements - and a fast ship.

The problem was the other part of the List. For 47 Points you need a ship with much the same endgame abilitys. But there was no ship. But now comes Kylo - 47 points with standard eqip - and fills the gab.

K3

Kath Scarlet (38)
Lone Wolf (2)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Agent Kallus (2)
Bomblet Generator (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Andrasta (0)

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Push the Limit (3)
Advanced Sensors (3)
Advanced Optics (2)
Autothrusters (2)
First Order Vanguard (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

You can beat near everything. Mangler, Kath ability and Kylos condition are a huge synergy. And with the incredible maneuverability from Kylo, its so easy to gain fully benefit from Lone Wulf that Kallus feels it like a 24-hour working day.

I manage to reach Top4 in a Regional in Germany. All thanks to Kallus. It was noticed by Mynock Sq Podcast. And now a friend with nearly no practice with this list reach the second stage from SoS Hannover with 3:0. Myself was lucky beaten by Jack Mooney and Nymranda at the same tournament. It was far from knowing how these games turn out and the third list list with Timewalk Asajj and Range1 Boba was clearly beaten.

What I need to say: The Meta is so much more than Ghost-Fen or Nymranda or Reylow. Kallus is in this way a beacon for the imps and he is so much underestimated.

Play it!

I'm excited to put this list on the table. As soon as I heard the Mynocks mention it, I jotted to the list components and started putting them together. I haven't had a chance to put it on the table yet, but it's definitely one I'm excited about!