In the "End of Round" section , it says

Quote

One Player Defeated: At the end of a game round, all of one player’s ships that are not flotillas are destroyed.

Meanwhile, in "Scoring", in the paragraph describing tabling someone, it says

Quote

If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships , the opponent’s fleet is worth 400 fleet points for the purposes of calculating score

The "ships that are not flotillas" distinction is not there, and flotillas count as ships. As I see it, it means that you have to also kill all flotillas to get the default 400 points. Is that correct?

As a result, this creates the issue that you have to actively avoid killing your opponent's capital ships if you want a 9:2 or 10:1 victory - Rebels can have as many as 231 points in Flotillas and Squadrons, while Imperials can have 242 points. Realistically, it'll be between 100 and 150, but the possibility is there. And if you kill all enemy capital ships in Round 3 or 4, you don't get the chance to wipe out his flotillas and "mop up", because the game ends right there and then, depriving you of the chance of scoring as many points as you "deserve".

I'd be pretty confident that they forgot to change the text. (just to stop any possible arguments.) I mean its pretty clear cut to me personally.

Tabling pre change only counted ships, not squadrons.
Tabling after change counts ships, not squadrons, not flotillas.

Ergo, if Flotillas now do not keep you from being tabled like Squadrons do not, then once your last non Flotilla ship is dead, you are tabled, tabled means your opponent gets 400pts.

I hope they just forgot as I have a frightening way to cheat major defeats using @Petersaber 's observations.

Dodonna, hammerhead.

2 GR75s

No squadrons.

225 point bid.

On turn one drive the hammerhead off map and give up 56 points. Game ends. Hey as second player doing fire lanes or contested outpost you may even get the flotillas to score some VPs before you loose reducing your loss further. If you could hang around until turn 2 you may even win....

Ok so you won't win any games either. I'm just stretching a point.

Now I see why you also need the 2 flotilla limit as there are better 1 ship & 8+ flotilla builds that could have been viable.

35 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

I hope they just forgot as I have a frightening way to cheat major defeats using @Petersaber 's observations.

Dodonna, hammerhead.

2 GR75s

No squadrons.

225 point bid.

On turn one drive the hammerhead off map and give up 56 points. Game ends. Hey as second player doing fire lanes or contested outpost you may even get the flotillas to score some VPs before you loose reducing your loss further. If you could hang around until turn 2 you may even win....

Ok so you won't win any games either. I'm just stretching a point.

Now I see why you also need the 2 flotilla limit as there are better 1 ship & 8+ flotilla builds that could have been viable.

"It may be perfectly and technically legal, but I, as the TO, judge this to not only be an attempt to manipulate the scoring of the tournament, but grossly unsportsmanlike.

You have 5 minutes to enter a new list before the tournament starts. Subsequent breaches of the rule of Unsportsmanlike conduct will incur the penalty of defenestration."

5 hours ago, Mad Cat said:

Dodonna, hammerhead.

2 GR75s

No squadrons.

225 point bid.

On turn one drive the hammerhead off map and give up 56 points. Game ends. Hey as second player doing fire lanes or contested outpost you may even get the flotillas to score some VPs before you loose reducing your loss further. If you could hang around until turn 2 you may even win....

Since "One player defeated" doesn't specify that all squadrons "blow up" at the end, you could include 2 VCX and guarantee at least 4 Victory Points by starting two Combat Flotillas at speed 1, immediatly reducing to speed 0 to keep them away from rushing enemy ships, Hammerhead parallel to the map edge. Turn 1, you move Objective Tokens to Flotillas, score 30, and drive the Hammerhead off the map in turn 2, scoring further 30 at the end of the turn, and thus winning by 4 points.

1 hour ago, Petersaber said:

Since "One player defeated" doesn't specify that all squadrons "blow up" at the end, you could include 2 VCX and guarantee at least 4 Victory Points by starting two Combat Flotillas at speed 1, immediatly reducing to speed 0 to keep them away from rushing enemy ships, Hammerhead parallel to the map edge. Turn 1, you move Objective Tokens to Flotillas, score 30, and drive the Hammerhead off the map in turn 2, scoring further 30 at the end of the turn, and thus winning by 4 points.

I hear by pass on my "Evil genius of the week" medal to you.

Long live the King!

1 hour ago, Mad Cat said:

I hear by pass on my "Evil genius of the week" medal to you.

Long live the King!

Thank you!

And if you include 3 VCX, you guarantee that your opponent will not score anything. I forgot you can have more than 2 VCX.

So my local group is doing a tournament this Sunday and they all want to use the new FAQ and Errata rules. I really hate ruling something RAI as a TO... Should I inform the group now we'll be playing the new regulations as written or give in to the RAI interpretation and tell them that?

Am I over thinking this?

On 7/4/2018 at 9:15 AM, Petersaber said:

Since "One player defeated" doesn't specify that all squadrons "blow up" at the end, you could include 2 VCX and guarantee at least 4 Victory Points by starting two Combat Flotillas at speed 1, immediatly reducing to speed 0 to keep them away from rushing enemy ships, Hammerhead parallel to the map edge. Turn 1, you move Objective Tokens to Flotillas, score 30, and drive the Hammerhead off the map in turn 2, scoring further 30 at the end of the turn, and thus winning by 4 points.

Commander

You will need to score 60 at least.

4 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

So my local group is doing a tournament this Sunday and they all want to use the new FAQ and Errata rules. I really hate ruling something RAI as a TO... Should I inform the group now we'll be playing the new regulations as written or give in to the RAI interpretation and tell them that?

Am I over thinking this?

It's not just RAI, pre change only squadrons didn't count for being tabled. Now Squadrons AND flotillas do not count for being tabled, pretty clear cut, the only thing they forgot to do was double confirm it in the breakdown / explanation section.

So you can with a clear conscious rule it as intended, or let me put a question to you, on one hand we have a simple change to the game :

Flotillas no longer count for tabling.

Or we have :

Flotillas no longer count for tabling, but unless destroyed you must subtract the points value of any surviving flotillas once the last non flotilla ship is detroyed, from 400pts

Which seems like a minor change you can overlook updating the in depth explanation of, or the major change to tournament scoring we just completely forgot to tell everyone about?

I'm going to go with they forgot to update the explanation area thinking that : "Flotillas no longer count for tabling." was sufficient information for everyone.

Quote

One Player Defeated: At the end of a game round, all of one player’s ships that are not flotillas are destroyed. The player with at least one ship [ that is not a flotilla ] remaining earns a win and the opposing player receives a loss. [ italics added ]

Hang on... So the RAW are incomplete/illogical, not just controversial. The rules don't fully cover the scenario where Player A's non-flotillas are destroyed, Player B has non-flotillas left, and Player A has flotillas left.

The tournament round ends, because all of one player's ships that are not flotillas have been destroyed. But the rules don't specify who is the winner, because both players have at least one ship remaining - so both would earn a win and a loss.

I would suggest that this specific paragraph must be treated RAI - with that implied "that is not a flotilla" between the "...ship remaining..." Without that the rules do not hold up logically.

This would fit as RAI given the comment in the article accompanying the FAQ: "This change means that destroying all of the opposing fleet's non-flotilla ships results in a victory."

With that in place, the scenarios outlined above aren't quite as crazy - the player driving their Hammerhead off the table but collecting some Objective Points (Station Assault, Capture the VIP/Contested Outpost/Fire Lanes, Intel Sweep/Sensor Net - and with enough of a bid to guarantee 2nd player) still loses. They get a 5-6, as the winner's MOV can't go negative no matter what the final score is, but they still lose.

The more controversial problem is the other paragraph:

Quote

If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships [ that are not flotillas ], the opponent’s fleet is worth 400 fleet points for the purposes of calculating score, even if the total ship, squadron, and upgrade cards are worth fewer fleet points. [ italics added ]

I'm not sure that the added bit would make it RAI - we don't know what the intention was. Obviously it is up to the TO to decide, but as it isn't even clear what RAI would be, I'd be hesitant to add that in unless the players were all (or mostly?) in agreement. [Edit: although see the afterthought - maybe the intention is clear if we are already applying this as RAI.]

Sure, without adding in the extra bit the system is open to abuse, but that's why we have the unsporting conduct rule:

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. ... The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct.

As far as implications of not making the second change, I think the main one would be that every list (particularly high-squadron lists, or "all or nothing" lists that have a high risk of being tabled) should have at least one flotilla in it - even if it just hides at the back or in a corner. Provided the flotilla adds something to the list (even if just an extra activation, it might not quite count as abusing the rules.

--------------------------------------------

To be really, really pedantic... now I think about it more, where do the old rules specify that if you destroy all of your opponent's ships you get 400 points? I agree that it is the intention of the rules, but it isn't quite what they say:

Quote

If a player destroys all of his or her opponent’s ships, the opponent’s fleet is worth 400 fleet points for the purposes of calculating score, even if the total ship, squadron, and upgrade cards are worth fewer fleet points.

It says that the opponent's fleet is worth 400 fleet points, but the player's score only counts the "total fleet point value of their opponent’s destroyed ships ...their opponent’s destroyed squadrons ," (plus objective points). Presumably that rule has always been treated RAI with an implied "... and the player is treated as having destroyed all their opponent's fleet" in it. If we're adding in that line, then the new flotilla rules would give you 400 fleet points for destroying all non-flotillas, plus objectives.

I got a reply on Twitter, they’re aware of the error now and working to fix it!

If only we could get responses this quick through the "official" channel...

5 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I got a reply on Twitter, they’re aware of the error now and working to fix it!

Ooo, this means there IS some point to having a Twitter account: I can badger FFG!

5 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Ooo, this means there IS some point to having a Twitter account: I can badger FFG!

Well, FFG OP anyway.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Well, FFG OP anyway.

FFGOP seem pretty active on Twitter, I've had Armada events retweeted and Armada posts liked by them on a few occasions as well.

More folk should post about Armada on Twitter anyway, so I don't feel like I'm talking to myself so much!

1 hour ago, Akhrin said:

FFGOP seem pretty active on Twitter, I've had Armada events retweeted and Armada posts liked by them on a few occasions as well.

More folk should post about Armada on Twitter anyway, so I don't feel like I'm talking to myself so much!

I try to - is there a decent hashtag to use? Maybe we should start one if there isn't one.

2 hours ago, Kendraam said:

I try to - is there a decent hashtag to use? Maybe we should start one if there isn't one.

I stick with #StarWarsArmada though I've got a search set up that'll catch anyone posting #SWArmada, or the phrase "Star Wars Armada" as well. If you're consistently using any of those I may well already be following you by now!

#StarWarsArmada does seem to be the best one to use though. And I've got data to back that up!

Anyway, feel like I've already derailed this one enough, but my Twitter is https://twitter.com/RedAkhrin and there's loads of Armada stuff in there if you're after it.

IMHO the whole idea of ending the game when non-flotillas are destroyed is a bit much, especially since most flotillas can shoot and can do a lot of work through squadrons. I can't even count how many times a Gozanti "mercy" killed one of my capital ships.

Reducing the max amount of flotillas to two was enough of a nerf.

@Darth Sanguis and @Akhrin can you guys use your twitter FFG OP post powers to ask them if the 2 flotillas rule in the team tourney at worlds will be 2 per person, 2 per total combined fleet, or with no restriction?

I assume the tabling rule will be carried over, but we are in uncharted territory where the rules are directly impacting how you can listbuild, and it would be nice to get a big heads up on that for those people building combined fleets with their friends to bring.

Turns out they're actually putting the answers to all the listbuilding questions into a hat and drawing them on site immediately prior to the team tourney, to force teams to listbuild on the spot.

Dodonna applies to both teammates? Not this year.
Konstantine? Why not?
Mix and max factions? Yes.
Flotilla cap? return random.random(0,5)
Activate each other's squadrons? No.
Home One applies to allies? No.
Can use each other's task force titles? Yes.
Fleet Commands for both players? Only IF! and AFFM! this year. EF! applies to your own fleet and one opponent of your choice.

13 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Turns out they're actually putting the answers to all the listbuilding questions into a hat and drawing them on site immediately prior to the team tourney, to force teams to listbuild on the spot.

Dodonna applies to both teammates? Not this year.
Konstantine? Why not?
Mix and max factions? Yes.
Flotilla cap? return random.random(0,5)
Activate each other's squadrons? No.
Home One applies to allies? No.
Can use each other's task force titles? Yes.
Fleet Commands for both players? Only IF! and AFFM! this year. EF! applies to your own fleet and one opponent of your choice.

"Look, anyone handicapping themselves enough to use Konstantine deserves SOME kind of leg up here."

15 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Fleet Commands for both players? Only IF! and AFFM! this year. EF! applies to your own fleet and one opponent of your choice.

Always end with your best line. Well played!

(Actually, the idea of a Hondo-like fleet command is both intriguing and hilarious.)

1 hour ago, elbmc1969 said:

(Actually, the idea of a Hondo-like fleet command is both intriguing and hilarious.)

Right? As I was writing that I thought, "you know... I actually don't hate this idea..."

It's been updated.