I think you'd be better off dropping the analyst for Inqy and a bid if you're running VK

18 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

I think you'd be better off dropping the analyst for Inqy and a bid if you're running VK

You certainly can, but that changes the list into something significantly different from what it was.

more than switching out QD for VK does? an OP inquisitor should be just as tanky as the silencer, but has more options open to it....

8 hours ago, hawk32 said:

more than switching out QD for VK does? an OP inquisitor should be just as tanky as the silencer, but has more options open to it....

Yes, at least for me. The Silencers have defined the list in my mind. Quickdraw frequently goes down fast, "kicking in the door" by doing a lot of early damage, but the Silencers finish things.

I'd say the Silencer/Inquisitor comparison is not about tankyness, it's just a totally different ships. The Silencers are aggressive, getting in close and blocking and aiming for Range 1 shots. Their bonuses are largely action independent because the Focus can be banked from a non-combat turn, the Target Lock is frequently free from FCS. This, plus the extra hit points, gives them tons of flexibility to move over rocks, intentionally bump, or dial in red moves, so they can attack from any different angles and have great time on target, especially compared to a PTL ship.

I say all of this not to argue that the Inquisitor is wrong, he has his own set of strengths, just that the Silencers are very different ships from the Inquisitor. The third ship, . In my view, is more about enabling the Silencers, which is why I consider changes there less significant.

My opinion only, of course.

I totally understand where you are coming from on the Silencers. I've been in some spirited discussions about using them vs. a traditional ace. I just know how to use the silencers better. I come from a history of low PS blocking & jousting lists. The silencer is a natural progression of that mentality. A 5 forward and a barrel roll or boost and I've got one exactly where I want it. They are A LOT faster than the Quiz and their dial is so much more open and unpredictable. The action-less function of FCS after they get behind something is invaluable so that you have a modified shot your next turn leaving you options to focus/BR/boost after you clear stress.

I just know how to use that relatively low PS a lot more effectively than a highly baited game of cat and mouse with higher skilled aces. I like using them as roadblocks to set up the ally oop to QD for the dunk.

FWIW, it's also why I love the Delta defenders so much. Uncontested K-turns and tons of blocking potential.

On 7/1/2018 at 4:23 AM, Biophysical said:

This list is in my box right now to test a few times. The Vermeil build seems like more of a long game build, slowing down damage output and giving your squad time to do its thing. Most matchups I've headsimmed give it a slight edge compared to Quickdraw, but there are a lo of unknowns.

I've been following the thread and playing the list for a while now and I must say that I'm pretty sceptical as far as the QD swap with Vermeil is concerned. Taking out QD is removing, as far as the first rounds of engagment are concerned, a lot (!) of offensive power from the list. Does it really pay to play the long con with the more than limited offensive output of Vermeil? Any insights from the last weeks of testing the Reaper variant? I'm really curious ?

9 minutes ago, CrippleCrit said:

I've been following the thread and playing the list for a while now and I must say that I'm pretty sceptical as far as the QD swap with Vermeil is concerned. Taking out QD is removing, as far as the first rounds of engagment are concerned, a lot (!) of offensive power from the list. Does it really pay to play the long con with the more than limited offensive output of Vermeil? Any insights from the last weeks of testing the Reaper variant? I'm really curious ?

My jury is out on this, but a few things to note:

1. Vermeil hits about as hard as Quickdraw on non-spike turns.

2.) Jamming away defensive tokens is about as good as the extra shot against certain ships. Even against non-optimal ships, it's not nothing, and it happens more frequently than QD's ability (I think).

3.) Vermeil loves Range 3, while Quickdraw hates it. That's not better or worse, just a difference.

Edit:

4.) A Reaper painted up black with a red cockpit like the Silencers looks freaking awesome.

6 minutes ago, CrippleCrit said:

I've been following the thread and playing the list for a while now and I must say that I'm pretty sceptical as far as the QD swap with Vermeil is concerned. Taking out QD is removing, as far as the first rounds of engagment are concerned, a lot (!) of offensive power from the list. Does it really pay to play the long con with the more than limited offensive output of Vermeil? Any insights from the last weeks of testing the Reaper variant? I'm really curious ?

You are losing a double tab power but vermeil is very accurate attack that stays potent all the way to the last health, as well Is less predictable with movement which is for sure a plus. Also the ability to jam even if you don’t have a shot is great in a situation where he was out flown.

So some more feedback on this list. I've been running some combo of Quiz + Ace (Fel or Vader) plus Krennic & Vermeil reaper over the last week for funsies and to see how it flys. That's a fun list that hits like a truck if you set it up right, but it's also incredibly brittle and vulnerable to a lot of the jank out there (snap shot was brutal, bombs, ect).

Every match I played with that Krennic + Double ace was ultra close and it was completely dumpstered by some hard counters (bomb lists in particular).

I went back to QD + Double Silencer last night and difference in play is night and day and so much more forgiving.

1) First off, aces dependent on PTL are far too predictable if there are more than 2 ships still on the board. Once you get stressed your moves are pretty obvious where you are going so just put a ship there and murder them. Part of that is my flying and putting the aces in bad spots, other is just playing opponents that know the dials well and what the most obvious move is.

Silencers don't care. They are only stressed if you do a k/talon roll or take some game effect for stress. Your dial is SOOOO much more open. You can one turn round after round if you want and can still carry a focus and TL with you. I completely missed that open dial play with my limited time with the aces.

2) You carry your focus over to the next round leaving you a bit more protected from snap shot. I've seen snap shot A-wings sneaking back in. They murdered my tokenless aces. Silencers weren't as concerned since I was coming in with three green dice and a focus for mods. If I spend the focus, I can still get another from my action.

3) Quickdraw. I missed Quickdraw so bad. She hits like a hammer, scares the utter crap out of people and just sets up a no go lane that the silencers are happy to flank from.

I played the list last night and just dumptrucked a Palp + Krennic + Juke Ryad list.

I finally got this list on the table last night for a Store kit. I took 1st! Althought I really hate quickdraw. I just don't fly her well enough to do much, I'm trying to be cagey with the flankers and QD is an in-your-face ship, I tend to like to fly all the same type of style. For 36 points I much prefer even Fel at 34 points, but I know that's not a great option at the moment. Man those silencers are great at this build! Quite a few turns I didn't take an action with them due to action economy.

I tried another list with Vermiel at 36 points with Krennic. That ~seems~ like it would be a good fit here depending on playstyle. I think I may try that to help combat those pesky aces like Poe/Wes/Wedge. That seems to be the only thing I can't combat effectively with how I (can't) fly Quickdraw. I also haven't gone up against TLT's or bombs yet.

Has anyone tried 36 point Lone Wolf Vader with the two silencers? Or VI Vader and 1 point bid?

So I tried the version of the list replacing QuickDraw with vermeil and I have to say it still functioned as it should except nothing dies. The attacks were strong enough to totally help erase ships as QuickDraw would do. I miss the barrel rolls but I rarely lost my target. Krennic is so broken good and isb officer was really great at stopping my opponent from having the tokens to kill anything.

anyone else have feedback on this variation as I have a store champ in a week and I’m torn on which version I wanna bring

another note for this reaper version is that people don’t know how to fight them yet as with QuickDraw, most people know what kind of a threat he is and how to combat him

Honestly this list is becoming rather mature as a meta list. Started out as a joke. And I felt like I helped put it on the radar, but now everyone thinks I'm flying meta when I was one of the ones to get it started. Haha.

Mature beauties list. hmm.

I tell people I'm part of "the qd 2 silencers" cult on the forums, and they know what I'm talking about.

2 hours ago, DXCrazytrain said:

I tell people I'm part of "the qd 2 silencers" cult on the forums, and they know what I'm talking about.

Lol. I'm reading this as the band"the cult" is playing in the bar.

"Quickdraw" (29) w/ Adaptability (0), Fire-Control System (2), Advanced Optics (2), Lightweight Frame (2), Special Ops Training (0)

Sienar-Jaemus Analyst (26) w/ Fire-Control System (2), Advanced Optics (2), Autothrusters (2)

Major Vermeil (26) w/ Veteran Instincts (1), ISB Slicer (2), Mara Jade (3), Multispectral Camoflouge (1), Advanced Ailerons (0)

Total: 100

Ran this tonight against 7 Z95 harpoon swarm. replacing a ps4 silencer with Vermeil. Got vermeil behind the swarm, while quickdraw and silencer took out a harpoon Z. Quickdraw went down, but mara jade on vermeil just ****ed the Zs up. Jamming them and stressing them so they cant kturn, leaving one or two all alone at your disposal. Once ps4 silencer was behind them, it was brutal as vermeil was stressing and jamming. Time called and I won on points. Was a close game I didnt think I had a chance at winning...until mara jade happened on 4 Zs at once. Gave me an entire round of not being fired upon.

Vermeil and double silencers can definately be a thing. Wish I had a 2nd one to try it out.

Is QD Seinar Vermiel, or QD Seinar Scarif-Palp or Vermiel 2 Silencers better than Qd 2 silencers?

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Is QD Seinar Vermiel, or QD Seinar Scarif-Palp or Vermiel 2 Silencers better than Qd 2 silencers?

That's almost certain to be meta/personal preference dependent.

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Is QD Seinar Vermiel, or QD Seinar Scarif-Palp or Vermiel 2 Silencers better than Qd 2 silencers?

I am not sure yet, been trying vermeil two silencers and I like it a lot, but can’t say it’s better or worse yet....it’s effective because vermeil with krennic and ISb hits like a truck and can hit hard until the last hp, but Of course it’s not quickdraws double tap....although I really had no problem killing things with vermeil and he doesn’t get single round blasted quite as hard

its tough because honestly qd is super cool and has been in every list I’ve flown for like the last year(outside of my regional list...stupid stupid stupid lol) so it’s hard to take him out of the list, but I seem to have a harder time saying goodbye to two silencers, since they fly so well together and are kind of the point of the list. And actually the mobility of the reaper plays very well with them

so yeah I got a lot of practice to do this week to make up my mind for store champs

For me the heart of the list are the Silencers leaving the question of what’s the best 36pts to put with them. I feel the short list has to be QD, Vermiel, and Vessery, in that order. Vessery’s pros and cons have been thoroughly discussed here and elsewhere and for my two cents he’s really only the best choice for those who find him to be their spirit animal.

The main thing I want to discuss is a comparison of QD and Vermiel. For reference, QD has VI, FCS, Optics, Title, and LWF, and Vermiel has VI, Krennic, ISB Slicer, Title, and LWF. Full disclosure, I have yet to put a Tie Reaper on the table so this is all theory crafting as far as Vermiel is concerned. Please feel free to refute anything I say based on your experiences with him.

First up, offense. Between FCS, the title, and her ability, QD is one of the best sources of spike damage in the game. Vermiel is similar with three dice and an FCS surrogate from Krennic as well the condition and his own ability all making sure you get the most out of those three dice. I particularly like the guaranteed shield removal regardless of green dice or tokens. However it is just three dice per turn as opposed to QD spamming attacks all over the place whenever she loses a shield. Advantage: QD

Next, defense. QD has 2 green dice plus LWF and she has the intimidation factor going for her. You’d be surprised at the number of players who leave her for last or choose not to shoot her for fear of the retaliation. For the most part though you can’t rely on this because by now most people know to focus her down quick. Vermiel has one less die but more health so it’s a bit of a wash. He also gets the benefit of usually facing jammed opponents. Advantage: Vermiel but only by a hair.

Next, maneuverability. While I love doing a 1 forward to victory with QD, it simply cannot compare to Ailerons. While they can have their disadvantages the ability to radically change the starting point of your maneuver is awesome, not to mention the fact that the Reaper has a much easier time keeping up with the Silencers. Advantage: Vermiel.

Finally, intangibles. For QD it’s VI. The value of PS killing something before it even gets to shoot cannot be understated. Additionally, with her action economy, she is usually free to barrel roll either out of arc or into range one, and do so with perfect knowledge of the game state. Who needs green dice when you’re not taking shots. Vermiel on the other hand is a jamming machine and which messes with both the offense and defense of most opponents and has the added benefit of helping the Silencers as well as the Reaper. It is a bit limited however with the glaring omission of not affecting reinforce tokens (he says saltily). Advantage: QD by a wide margin.

In closing let me reiterate, I have no table time with the Reaper so there are no doubt other factors that affect this comparison, but based on my thinkings, I feel like QD is still the best choice to pair with the Silencers. While the four categories were spilt 2-2, QD’s wins were a bit more substantial giving her the edge. I will of course, happily revise any or all of this once I have some reps in with Vermiel but for now these are the reasons why I’ll be sticking with QD for my first couple Store Championships.

Thanks for reading my wall of text, and good luck in your SCs. May you bring glory to The FIRST ORDER!!!

12 minutes ago, DXCrazytrain said:

For me the heart of the list are the Silencers leaving the question of what’s the best 36pts to put with them. I feel the short list has to be QD, Vermiel, and Vessery, in that order. Vessery’s pros and cons have been thoroughly discussed here and elsewhere and for my two cents he’s really only the best choice for those who find him to be their spirit animal.

The main thing I want to discuss is a comparison of QD and Vermiel. For reference, QD has VI, FCS, Optics, Title, and LWF, and Vermiel has VI, Krennic, ISB Slicer, Title, and LWF. Full disclosure, I have yet to put a Tie Reaper on the table so this is all theory crafting as far as Vermiel is concerned. Please feel free to refute anything I say based on your experiences with him.

First up, offense. Between FCS, the title, and her ability, QD is one of the best sources of spike damage in the game. Vermiel is similar with three dice and an FCS surrogate from Krennic as well the condition and his own ability all making sure you get the most out of those three dice. I particularly like the guaranteed shield removal regardless of green dice or tokens. However it is just three dice per turn as opposed to QD spamming attacks all over the place whenever she loses a shield. Advantage: QD

Next, defense. QD has 2 green dice plus LWF and she has the intimidation factor going for her. You’d be surprised at the number of players who leave her for last or choose not to shoot her for fear of the retaliation. For the most part though you can’t rely on this because by now most people know to focus her down quick. Vermiel has one less die but more health so it’s a bit of a wash. He also gets the benefit of usually facing jammed opponents. Advantage: Vermiel but only by a hair.

Next, maneuverability. While I love doing a 1 forward to victory with QD, it simply cannot compare to Ailerons. While they can have their disadvantages the ability to radically change the starting point of your maneuver is awesome, not to mention the fact that the Reaper has a much easier time keeping up with the Silencers. Advantage: Vermiel.

Finally, intangibles. For QD it’s VI. The value of PS killing something before it even gets to shoot cannot be understated. Additionally, with her action economy, she is usually free to barrel roll either out of arc or into range one, and do so with perfect knowledge of the game state. Who needs green dice when you’re not taking shots. Vermiel on the other hand is a jamming machine and which messes with both the offense and defense of most opponents and has the added benefit of helping the Silencers as well as the Reaper. It is a bit limited however with the glaring omission of not affecting reinforce tokens (he says saltily). Advantage: QD by a wide margin.

In closing let me reiterate, I have no table time with the Reaper so there are no doubt other factors that affect this comparison, but based on my thinkings, I feel like QD is still the best choice to pair with the Silencers. While the four categories were spilt 2-2, QD’s wins were a bit more substantial giving her the edge. I will of course, happily revise any or all of this once I have some reps in with Vermiel but for now these are the reasons why I’ll be sticking with QD for my first couple Store Championships.

Thanks for reading my wall of text, and good luck in your SCs. May you bring glory to The FIRST ORDER!!!

I partially agree with you, but I think you're missing some Vermeil advantages. I'll not my experience is not extensive yet either.

Offense: Mostly agree. However, Quickdraw's offense only tops out when someone shoots at her. This can make them shoot Silencers when I'd rather they not shoot Silencers. Jam also contributes to the Vermeil squad offense, although it's degree varies depending on the opposing ships.

Defense: Vermeil gets 3 dice at range 3 or behind a rock against most opponents. This helps widen his defensive disparity. You might be underestimating the effect of Jam on total squad defense, as well.

Maneuverability: I agree. Vermeil has a big advantage in that he's harder to pin down an kill compared Quickdraw. She's slow, so sometimes is forced into jousting. This is usually okay, but it does mean you have to rely heavily on the dice for that initial merge.

Intangibles: I agree with your description, but I'm not sure how you get a wide margin in favor if Quickdraw. It seems closer to me.

33 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I partially agree with you, but I think you're missing some Vermeil advantages. I'll not my experience is not extensive yet either.

Offense: Mostly agree. However, Quickdraw's offense only tops out when someone shoots at her. This can make them shoot Silencers when I'd rather they not shoot Silencers. Jam also contributes to the Vermeil squad offense, although it's degree varies depending on the opposing ships.

Defense: Vermeil gets 3 dice at range 3 or behind a rock against most opponents. This helps widen his defensive disparity. You might be underestimating the effect of Jam on total squad defense, as well.

Maneuverability: I agree. Vermeil has a big advantage in that he's harder to pin down an kill compared Quickdraw. She's slow, so sometimes is forced into jousting. This is usually okay, but it does mean you have to rely heavily on the dice for that initial merge.

Intangibles: I agree with your description, but I'm not sure how you get a wide margin in favor if Quickdraw. It seems closer to me.

I freely admit that I am an extremely average player and by no means am I an analytical expert. So I genuinely want to say thanks for smoothing out some of the rough edges of my post. It's nice to be able to have constructive conversations.

Ok fine. 2x Silencers is cool to...

after running vk/inqy/palp reaper yesterday at a store champ im pretty convinced vk is better than QD.

Found out Kylo can't kill Vermiel with Rebel Captive and ISB slicer. Like, nada. @Boom Owl

3 hours ago, hawk32 said:

after running vk/inqy/palp reaper yesterday at a store champ im pretty convinced vk is better than QD.

Do you feel that the two reaper list is better then vermeil with silencers? Just asking since you took the dual reaper list against your local gauntlet