It seems that as usual, this forum will be much less active the month before Worlds as people plan and test and practice their super secret lists.

Let's fill the silence with some fun discussion. First question: what is a unit that really like the concept of, but wish it were better.

I'll start: I really love Kayn Somos. He's an amazingly fun figure that is hampered by being overcosted by 3 points. The ability to get extra attacks out of your Troopers with both his Firing Squad ability and his Command card is great. I'd love to see an official fix for him, but unfortunately that will never happen because nobody but me likes him.

Definitely overcosted but he has solid abilities. Unfortunately Palpatine makes him pretty obsolete.

Kayn + Sentry Droids seems like a winning combo. Kayn, 2x Sentry, Officer, Zillo, and either a set of eJets or eRiots.

I'll go with Dengar. I love the idea of him being able to throw out a multitude of conditions to harm his prey and make hunting them easier but he just doesn't work with the way he's costed right now. I also like how he is incentivized to choose new targets that don't already have conditions on them so he can get that extra surge. But unfortunately for 7 points you need to bring a lot more to the table than a 2 die attack with a possible auto surge.

I think giving him a blue die and then 6 extra health to make him cost effective could potentially bring him into some lists that want to have an option to throw harmful conditions out on high value figures. Possibly even an Auto Pierce 1 to go along with it.

45 minutes ago, TheUnsullied said:

I think giving him a blue die and then 6 extra health to make him cost effective could potentially bring him into some lists that want to have an option to throw harmful conditions out on high value figures. Possibly even an Auto Pierce 1 to go along with it.

We've been throwing around the idea locally of making Dengar more like Hera. Cut him down to 4pt, keep most of his abilities the same, and then also allow Punishment to be used by a friendly figure within 3 spaces. Limit once per round on that change, but not his own shot(s).

1 hour ago, ThatJakeGuy said:

I'll start: I really love Kayn Somos. He's an amazingly fun figure that is hampered by being overcosted by 3 points. The ability to get extra attacks out of your Troopers with both his Firing Squad ability and his Command card is great. I'd love to see an official fix for him, but unfortunately that will never happen because nobody but me likes him.

I'm a Kayn fan as well and have tried him in plenty of lists but he just has too many issues for being 10 points. Rally the Troops is a great command card but Firing Squad is less so because of the adjacency requirement, which means he either uses Firing Squad or attacks but not both. I feel like Advanced Comms was invented to fix this (and Sorin) but making it cost another point just makes him even more overcosted.

Also, his surges are just weak sauce. I imagine Captain Terro hangs out with all of the Elite Troopers and they all have a good laugh about Kayn the Trooper Commander and his pitiful +1 Damage surge.

1 hour ago, TheUnsullied said:

I think giving him a blue die and then 6 extra health to make him cost effective could potentially bring him into some lists that want to have an option to throw harmful conditions out on high value figures. Possibly even an Auto Pierce 1 to go along with it.

The way Vader, Han, and IG are running around everywhere, begin able to drop stuns reliably for mercs! Right now you have to run a Wampa, who also needs fixed haha.

I feel like Somos/Sorin are some of the obvious choices. when he came out, I thought Sorin's ability to allow droids/vehicles to self focus was going to be really fun and good. Turns out, not so much

8 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

I feel like Somos/Sorin are some of the obvious choices. when he came out, I thought Sorin's ability to allow droids/vehicles to self focus was going to be really fun and good. Turns out, not so much

It's surprisingly good on an AT-DP, I've seen it in action. If you can get an Inspiring Speech off turn 1, it's pretty easy to keep Focus train rolling with all the extra surges you get. Also, stun on a massive ranged figure is absolutely terrifying. Problem is Palpatine is just so much better than Sorin at everything else.

14 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

It's surprisingly good on an AT-DP, I've seen it in action. If you can get an Inspiring Speech off turn 1, it's pretty easy to keep Focus train rolling with all the extra surges you get. Also, stun on a massive ranged figure is absolutely terrifying. Problem is Palpatine is just so much better than Sorin at everything else.

It's still good. Just costs too much. If he was 3 points cheaper, he'd be in a ton of lists. costed at 5, with the option of advanced comms for 6.

Great thread idea, @ThatJakeGuy !

My go-to figure would be Leia. I think she's playable even now if you fight for her (didn't a Han/Leia list win Michigan Regionals?). One point less, or maybe 2 or 3 more hp, and she'd feel like a rebel counter to Palpatine. Spy and Leader traits are great. Or maybe an ability where you could defeat an adjacent figure instead of her?

8 hours ago, Smashotron said:

We've been throwing around the idea locally of making Dengar more like Hera. Cut him down to 4pt, keep most of his abilities the same, and then also allow Punishment to be used by a friendly figure within 3 spaces. Limit once per round on that change, but not his own shot(s).

Yeah he’d be decent at 4 points and then probably wouldn’t need any other changes. I do wonder how often he’d still get edged out by Greedo or Hera in that slot though.

I was so pumped for Dengar when he was announced and yeah, he didn't deliver. Not at all. That was at the height of Trooper-spam where he more often than not, killed the target instead and even if he didn't, using a 7 point model to stun a 3 point trooper just didn't feel good.

Fortunately I think the fix is really easy on this one, cause he's got all the right stuff on him:

-3 points

Pierce 2 (auto)

[Surge] [Surge] Pierce 2, +2 Accuracy.

Auto-Focus

Remove [Surge] +2 Damage.

This would make sure he gets a few points of damage through to do his thing, but he won't ever kill someone outright. He'd be super good at hunting Heroes, but would more or less suck against everything else. The auto-focus is boring, but I think it could make sense and would help Scum get away with just using Jabba for support if they could fill in IG-88 and Dengar with auto-focus (and perhaps even Maul as well).

When in close, he should be able to land all three of the conditions, but can also chose to fire at long range using the double surge, but then isn't likely to land anything but a single condition.

I also wonder if Wookie Warriors could use a little something. Their hp remain the most efficient in the game (Onar Koma or Bantha are in contention, but have literally no defense). The new Brawler cards help, but I feel like many of us feel like Wookies ought to be able to rage around a bit for real damage or some other shenanigan, and instead they generally feel like they trudge along and maybe swing a time or two. I still think they're great box-sitters, and they're a rare high-survivability, multi-figure rebel deployment costed under 10, but they're just not as efficient as EJets, EQuays, or a number of other figures.

9 hours ago, GottaBadFeelingAboutThis said:

I also wonder if Wookie Warriors could use a little something. Their hp remain the most efficient in the game (Onar Koma or Bantha are in contention, but have literally no defense). The new Brawler cards help, but I feel like many of us feel like Wookies ought to be able to rage around a bit for real damage or some other shenanigan, and instead they generally feel like they trudge along and maybe swing a time or two. I still think they're great box-sitters, and they're a rare high-survivability, multi-figure rebel deployment costed under 10, but they're just not as efficient as EJets, EQuays, or a number of other figures.

It's hard swallowing 8 points for two box sitters without much else going on for them. Their health/deployment point is great but I really think they'd see a lot more play if they had less HP and were costed at 6 for regular and 8 for the elites. 6 for 16 Hp would make them less efficient health wise but still tanky enough to take a couple shots and the 6 points would be a lot easier to find room for in a list.

3 hours ago, TheUnsullied said:

It's hard swallowing 8 points for two box sitters without much else going on for them. Their health/deployment point is great but I really think they'd see a lot more play if they had less HP and were costed at 6 for regular and 8 for the elites. 6 for 16 Hp would make them less efficient health wise but still tanky enough to take a couple shots and the 6 points would be a lot easier to find room for in a list.

It's a fair thought. I think the notion is more that they can also soak at least one hit. Vader can one-shot Jyn; he can't one-shot a 4-point wookie. And if you start chipping away at them in round 2, they have Fury to add a decent surge to their attack. To me, if they score a box and make their points, they're already super efficient. If they also take at least one hit, it's all gravy. The tough question is whether they've earned their keep in a game where Vader swings twice and clears one, but they never do any objective work. Is the opportunity cost to your opponent enough, there?

Kayn Somos is bad in so many ways.

An imperial list wants 2 Officers, RbF, Zillo. When you add Somos and Advanced Comms, this is 17 points before you include any troopers. This is too much support and not enough troopers. He has to be cheaper.

For his attack, abilities and health, he is to expensive. He has to be cheaper.

To use all his abilities, he would want to move, shoot (to use Squad Command), Firing Squad, move. But this would be 3 actions. Firing Squad would have to include a third attack for Kayn himself.

His surge for 1 damage is too bad. Needs 2.

Firing Squad needs two troopers standing out in the open to see a target. Troopers out in the open die. And a worthwhile target doesn't wait out in the open to be shot. Firing Squad is just to hard to set up.

Firing Squad has "targeting the same figure" restriction, which makes it really hard to position for both troopers to see the same target. And even if your positioning is perfect, it happens that the first trooper kills the target and then you have a wasted attack. This restriction would have to leave.

He has to choose ADJACENT troopers, that fact makes positioning even harder. He absolutely needs Advance Comms which makes him even more expensive. So he would have to be even cheaper.

Yeah, I know. That's why I'm not using him. This thread is about "bad figures we wish were better", not "figure that are going to be the centerpiece of my Worlds list." Nobody ever said he was great.

@DerBaer Are there any figures you'd like to use but they just aren't good enough?

As a question for Kayn, can he target himself with with firing squad? Could use him to help generate that surge for focus for the next attack. He's still too pricey.

The repulsor tank would get my vote. It's such a cool figure. But at 10 health and massive it's just going to die way too fast.

1 hour ago, draco193 said:

As a question for Kayn, can he target himself with with firing squad?

A figure is not adjacent to itself, so no. (Not even with Advanced Com Systems, due to having "other".)

31 minutes ago, a1bert said:

A figure is not adjacent to itself, so no. (Not even with Advanced Com Systems, due to having "other".)

Interesting. I had thought you had self adjacency. That's too bad.

On 2018. 04. 06. at 2:50 PM, GottaBadFeelingAboutThis said:

I also wonder if Wookie Warriors could use a little something. Their hp remain the most efficient in the game (Onar Koma or Bantha are in contention, but have literally no defense). The new Brawler cards help, but I feel like many of us feel like Wookies ought to be able to rage around a bit for real damage or some other shenanigan, and instead they generally feel like they trudge along and maybe swing a time or two. I still think they're great box-sitters, and they're a rare high-survivability, multi-figure rebel deployment costed under 10, but they're just not as efficient as EJets, EQuays, or a number of other figures.

I would love an attachment which lets them give tokens to enemies in their line of sight who deal 3 or more damage to allies.

And they could discard tokens to either make defender aganist enemies with tokens gain block/evade or to get closer to enemies with them and get a minor bonus to attack. maybe heal when attacking such enemies. Gives some to the wookie revenge theme like debts repaid and life debt.

19 hours ago, ThatJakeGuy said:

@DerBaer Are there any figures you'd like to use but they just aren't good enough?

Actually yes. In different ways.

1st: I'd really love to see a way better overall balancing. While the Meta is in a relatively healthy state right now (all three factions have competitive lists) there are still > 75% of my collection, that see no play. About every figure in Twin Shadows, Hoth and Bespin are more or less not competitive (except for the Ugnaught, but let's not discuss that here). Hoth has Negation and the Targeting Computer, so you still need that box. Bespin has Unshakable which is still playable.

2nd: I'd love to see "iconic" lists. Bossk, Boba Fett, Dengar, Leia, Stormtroopers, Heavy Stormtroopers, Dewbacks ... all these see no play but would add a lot to the flavor of the game. Boba is too expensive for having only one attack. Bossk dies too easily. Dengar the condition dealer has the problem that the best condition is DEAD, which he doesn't deal. Leia has the same problem as Kayn, that the figure she gives an attack to has to be out in the open to shoot and she dies too easily. Basic Stormtroopers just got outmatched by more obscure choices. Heavy Stormtroopers are too slow and only shine, when they roll a surge, but their dice don't do that and empire doesn't give enough Focus. The Dewbacks just lack a reroll.

On 4/6/2018 at 7:50 AM, GottaBadFeelingAboutThis said:

I also wonder if Wookie Warriors could use a little something.

Bowcaster attachment for non-unique Wookies, cost 1. Dice pool becomes ranged BGY. Lose the surge for cleave, and gain a surge for pierce 2.

Speaking of Wookies, Gaarkhan fits the original question pretty well. His charge ability and ability to do multiple attacks should be really great, but the health/damage don’t match the cost. I love his ability to self focus for his second attack also. He’d be fine in a Wookie list If he cost 5.

Gaark was the first hero I ran in campaign. Had so much fun with him. Was hoping it would translate to skirmish, but it just did not.

Royal Guard Champion is among the top of my "want to be better" (just ahead of kayn Sonos.) The empires non force user beat stick!

Saskia Teft from Twin Shadows, a cool dynamic of bringing in scum to rebels is a cool idea, as well as being a smuggler spy.

Verena Talos from Both as well.