Just now, Don Henderson fan club said:

I do, but it seems that no matter what I say you will only dismiss it out of hand, so what's the point.

I'm tired of all this hostility and verbal aggression. I'll just play my house rules and leave it at that.

I actually wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. You just haven't provided any actual evidence yet of why your opinion is correct over the written rules. You've provided some anecdotal evidence for the suppression bit, but only your own opinion for the aim and dodge bits. I can't dismiss out of hand what you aren't saying.

It's one thing to say "I don't like how the rules are written, so I'm making a house rule". It's another to say "my opinion is that most everyone is wrong and that the authors actually intended for aim and dodge to only work with ranged attacks". The first I'm indifferent on. The second gets a challenge. WHY do you think you're opinion is correct? You have yet to provide any supporting evidence.

4 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

I do, but it seems that no matter what I say you will only dismiss it out of hand, so what's the point.

I'm tired of all this hostility and verbal aggression. I'll just play my house rules and leave it at that.

Wasn't aware I, for one, was being hostile.

And I'm certainly interested in your reasoning.

1 minute ago, Darth Lupine said:

Wasn't aware I, for one, was being hostile.

And I'm certainly interested in your reasoning.

I don't feel like I'm being hostile either. I'm also interested in the reasoning, which apparently won't be forthcoming.

It's hard to convey emotion over written posts, but some of the replies here do read a bit hostile imo.

As for these house rules, I can kind of see where they are coming from. However perhaps the name of the actions should be taken a bit less literal. While "Aim" might seems more logical to only apply to ranged attacks, if you were to name it "Prepare" then it would make sense to affect melee combat as well as ranged. Whilst if "Dodge" was named "Defensive Focus" it again would be sensible to affect melee as well as ranged.

2 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

That's how I think the aim rule was intended. My opinion is based on how the aim, precise x and targeting scopes rules interact with each other, not with whether you can or cannot actually aim in melee.

But you can't just say things like this with nothing to back it up, and I guess that's where I am confused. I apologize for any perceived hostility on my part. That wasn't intended.

2 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

I get your point, but my my issue is that you're assuming you know the RAI of the designers, and I'm sorry but that's impossible, unless you have a secret bat-line to them?? ?

But seriously. It has been my experience so far that in an FFG game, the simplest interpretation is correct. At this point I'm totally convinced that the designers intent is, indeed, for aim and dodge to work in Melee. I'll grant you that when it comes to suppression and in particular, scopes, this is not as clear. An updated RRG would be nice......

+1

Is this entirely because people don't like that a scope on your gun improves your ability to punch someone? Given the art doesn't always match the character (fyi, Luke can use Saber Throw but it looks weird to have that card attached to him) might I suggest thinking its something like this?

i have been playing suppression the same way... but not aim and dodge.. to many Star Wars Legend books where someone uses the force to focus extra strong for an attack or defense, and since this cost an action, or a specified time i have been good with that. But that is the nice thing about house rules... Your house, your rules

The term "Aim" is what makes it seem weird that it could be used in melee as we typically associate it with ranged weapons, while "dodge" works in both situations.

If it was called "Concentrate" or "Focus" instead I dont think anyone would have any issues with it.

Focusing on avoiding incoming attacks in martial arts is equally "a thing" as it would be to try and focus or exploit a noticed opening to get a good strike in. So aim and dodge in melee makes sense. Suppression...I guess I can see both sides, RAW imo seem to claim you do get suppression from melee, but its likely not intended.

Someone else already mentioned the one "house rule" that I will definitely play by as long as my opponent doesnt object to it. I will use "true line of sight" to determine if a unit benefit from cover or not, as opposed to the "imaginary line birds eye view" the rules say. Were already checking the "true line of sigh" might just as well use that for cover since it makes absolute sense to do so, the "imaginary line" thing feels like its made for playing on a flat surface in a semi-2d way.

There are tons of examples of melee aiming. I've definitely been told where to aim when chopping wood for example and in a fight you'll hear people say to aim for the throat or eyes or something. Even more structured combat like boxing is loaded with suggestions of where to aim a knockout punch or where you want to aim to wear down your opponent. Melee aiming is definitely a thing, even if in gaming environments we generally associate it with a "ready, aim, fire" context.

On a similar note, melee attacks definitely give suppression according to the rules. I don't know why they wouldn't. If Vader's in my face swinging a laser sword I'm certainly going to raise my panic level a bit.

8 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

On a similar note, melee attacks definitely give suppression according to the rules. I don't know why they wouldn't. If Vader's in my face swinging a laser sword I'm certainly going to raise my panic level a bit.

This is how I feel. I don't see an obvious reason why melee attacks WOULDN'T give suppression tokens. I'll need to check, but I think you can still rally and it would impact the whether or not you get the second action to aim/dodge in addition to what would presumably be an attack action. Panic would still cause you to break and run (or withdraw?). Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any game breaking mechanic issues.

I will say, while some people have been maybe, curt or standoffish with the OP, there is also an aspect that he does seem very resolute his opinions are his opinions, and not for discussion in failure to give answers on why the broad house rules. For purposes of Game I can accept Scopes just add Precise 1 period, not when making a ranged attack (and if they wanted to work this way could EASILY say so), but could see people taking a more strict fluff interpretation. And I think that Suppression only on ranged is actually how it's supposed to work just the RRG doesn't yet have some of it's corners rounded out. Yes, obviously vader or luke swinging at you might bring suppression, but they have other mechanics for that. Getting punched in the face isn't "suppression", it's getting tangled in a brawl which we have rules for.

But, I don't follow the logic on Aim or Dodge. Having run a lot of the SWRPGs, I think that the Legion team has borrowed a bit from that in how it handles certain "qualities" (basically keywords) and other shared language. You see quite a few recurring terms which have the same or similar intent. Even if this was just an editing pass to breed familiarity, it's still a familiar touchstone. In the RPG, you can totally Aim a melee attack. It's just a basic maneuver you take to boost your next attack, and I see no mechanical or fluff reason why you can't spend part of your action economy to do it. Certain specialized talents though, like say, a Sniper Shot, only work with ranged attacks when it makes sense. And we've got some instances like that already, but a generic and basic action should have broad applicability. Dodge is similar, it's a talent which can be used on any attack to make it harder to hit you when you decide to use it. For melee or ranged specific defending, they have abilities like Guarded Stance or Side Step - which interact in slightly different ways but the idea is similar. Dodge is for everything, more specific stuff will come later (if needed).

Also mechanically, very important reason Dodge needs to apply to melee. In order to melee you need to make base-to-base contact. This means you can never naturally gain cover, it always has to be through another mechanic (like Cover keyword), because you'll never have a piece of terrain to draw a line through. Since two of our biggest Melee users also have very notable pierce values, this would mean there is basically no form of damage mitigation available to their defenders, which is not a good way to run a game. Might as well just make an arbitrary rule if vader touches tips with another mini they die.

See, what I don't get about this thread is... why tell us at all?

If you're not trying to convince anyone to change their sinful RAW ways, why are you announcing your house rules in the general forum, and not just... ya know... using them?

47 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

There are tons of examples of melee aiming. I've definitely been told where to aim when chopping wood for example and in a fight you'll hear people say to aim for the throat or eyes or something. Even more structured combat like boxing is loaded with suggestions of where to aim a knockout punch or where you want to aim to wear down your opponent. Melee aiming is definitely a thing, even if in gaming environments we generally associate it with a "ready, aim, fire" context.

Yes but aiming a close combat attack doesnt take any time, aiming a rifle does.

But as im not considering "aim" in melee as an actual aimed strike but as a series of feints and maneuvers, I dont have an issue with aim tokens and melee, its just my point on why people seem to find it unusual.

Well, I'm going on my jolly hols.

If you have ideas for house rules, don't forget to share them.

14 hours ago, LunarSol said:

On a similar note, melee attacks definitely give suppression according to the rules. I don't know why they wouldn't. If Vader's in my face swinging a laser sword I'm certainly going to raise my panic level a bit.

Didn’t this get cleared up last month by WatchItPlayed who got confirmation by the designer what suppression is from ranged combat only. I seem to remember seeing a post from early March, but don’t know if the ruling has been changed since then.

I find the OP's house rules rather strange as they are self-defeating. If you took suppression from melee attacks, you'd be more likely to lose an action, which means you wouldn't be able to Dodge or Aim while in melee, thus removing most of the need for the first two house rules.

3 hours ago, steves71 said:

Didn’t this get cleared up last month by WatchItPlayed who got confirmation by the designer what suppression is from ranged combat only. I seem to remember seeing a post from early March, but don’t know if the ruling has been changed since then.

Unfortunately "he said, she said" isn't official, so until it's in print in the RRG, some will just not be happy. I find it interesting that people are still saying that Aim shouldn't be used on melee, when the word literally means "to have the intention of achieving", which makes it perfectly viable as does the use of Precise ("exact, accurate, and careful about details"). Both are just other words to express that the unit if more focused during their attacks.

10 minutes ago, Alathazal said:

Unfortunately "he said, she said" isn't official, so until it's in print in the RRG, some will just not be happy. I find it interesting that people are still saying that Aim shouldn't be used on melee, when the word literally means "to have the intention of achieving", which makes it perfectly viable as does the use of Precise ("exact, accurate, and careful about details"). Both are just other words to express that the unit if more focused during their attacks.

Not only is it not official, but quite a few players simply don't follow enough random interviews, podcasts and blogs to see these sort of "oh yeah, we wrote that wrong" comments. If it's not in the RRG, it hasn't been fixed.

Uh, I thought supression was already ranged attacks only:

Learn to play PG 20:

Quote

The most common way for a unit to gain suppression tokens is to be the target of a ranged attack. After a ranged attack, if the attacker’s dice roll produced one or more hit (?) or critical (?) results, the defender gains one suppression token, even if those results were canceled. When a unit gains a suppression token, a player places the token near the unit leader; that token will remain with the leader until removed.

7 minutes ago, Cade Bulkin said:

Uh, I thought supression was already ranged attacks only:

Learn to play PG 20:

If ranged attacks are the "most common", then there has to be other ways of getting suppression, so they can't be ranged attacks only. But, in short, this is why you NEVER read the Learn to Play guides from FFG.

3 minutes ago, Hedgehobbit said:

If ranged attacks are the "most common", then there has to be other ways of getting suppression, so they can't be ranged attacks only. But, in short, this is why you NEVER read the Learn to Play guides from FFG.

I gotcha. Thank you!

11 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Well, I'm going on my jolly hols.

If you have ideas for house rules, don't forget to share them.

This was a great troll post. 10/10

New Legion House Rules: "MY house MY rules!" - every father since the dawn of time.