3 minutes ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

I agree with @Mon no Oni here; though the terms have some vagueness and are often used interchangeably, an artisan is usually someone doing the activity as a means of gainful employment. The baker Jeffery Hamelman made this differentiation in his book, “Bread”: an artist makes works or arrangements completely new and never seen before while an artisan makes something already invented but with high quality, repeatedly and consistently. The former is about creativity, the later is about craftsmenship.

Rokugani samurai are nobility and hence rich due to their status, and as such do not need jobs, and needing a job would imply they don’t have enough money to sit around all day writing haiku and contemplating the beauty of gardens etc etc.

Artisan sounds cool is probably the reason it became the card title, but unless the person in the picture is running a flower arrangement business she is probably an artist.

Since we are not explicitly given the information if she is or is not a flower shop owner I would go with what the card says. If it says artisan then my assumption is that she does this for a living. Not everyone in Rokugan is a Samurai, and there is clearly a economy. And as you pointed out not everyone can be a rich samurai or daimyo and thus have real jobs.

1 hour ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

Rokugani samurai are nobility and hence rich due to their status, and as such do not need jobs, and needing a job would imply they don’t have enough money to sit around all day writing haiku and contemplating the beauty of gardens etc etc.

This is not true.

First, Samurai are not nobility. In fact, Samurai means “those who serve”. A samurai serves his lord, and is responsible for everybody under his care, even peasants. True, a samurai can kill anybody from a lower caste without repercussions, but one of the virtues of Bushido is Compassion (“A samurai does not fight for himself, but to protect others”), and also, those people are your lord’s people, and in killing them without justification, you’re taking from your lord. Do it too much, and you can be in trouble, not for killing, but for failing to your lord.

And samurai aren’t rich. They have no necessity of money. But because a lord is expected to provide for everything that his subordinates could need, (which at least should be weapons, armor, food and a place to stay) looking for money elsewhere is the same as saying “My lord cannot provide for me” and hence, an insult.

In the lands of their lord, a samurai can enter an inn, and not pay for anything, because all there is your lord’s. Leaving money for the service is a polite thing, but not doing it is totally normal, and even expected.

Now, if you’re in the lands of other lord, you must “compensate” (basically, pay) the ones that provides you, because you’re taking from their lord.

Also, that lady is a courtier, not a samurai, and while that is in the same level of caste there is a distinction. From what I understand (granted I only played Old5r from the tail end of celestial on, so I don't know most of the lore) the crane are known for their craftsmanship and the products of those crafts are sought after throughout rokugon, and the crane are frequently commissioned for their works, hence those that have a huge clientele could easily be considered artisans as well as artists. Also, being rich does not necessarily mean all you do is sit on your butt all day, because if you don't have enough of an income to support a lavish and extravagant lifestyle, the money runs out fast, hence why in the last couple hundred years loads of noble families in Europe ran out of money, because they spent it all without a proper plan to make it back. As for why being a courtier matters here, she is essentially the equivalent of a political lobbyist, and the reason artists and artisans could have that sort of political clout is because their works are highly valuable, this applies even today, recently president trump brought in kim kardashian to consult on corrections reform, while she is by no means an expert, her name holds political sway because of her fame and fortune, and because she wanted something to happen, she used that sway to get it done (of course, people are going to have opinions and stuff, but please keep the debate about whether this is a good thing or not out of it, as that's not the point I'm making, it's just a real world, recent example of people who got rich and famous off of their art having political clout to throw around because of it). To tie it back together, a courtier's bread and butter (as in, what they do for a living) is being able to provide enough value to the people in charge that they want to keep them around, for a flower arranger, that means she needs to be doing enough of that around the courts that they keep her around and she keeps their ear, this sounds a lot to me like she is applying her art to make a living, albeit indirectly.

Also, I went to dictionary.com and looked up the full entries for both artisan and artist, and while there is a distinction (as there tends to be between so called synonyms), they are not mutually exclusive, and based entirely off of what we know about this particular card (which is very little, we don't even have a name, for crying out loud) either or BOTH could easily apply. The first entry for artisan is: "a person skilled in an applied art; a craftsperson." The first entry for artist is: "a person who produces works in any of the arts that are primarily subject to aesthetic criteria." So, if they are skilled in an applied art (such as japanese flower arrangement) they are an artisan, and if they produce works in any art judged for aesthetics (such as japanese flower arrangement) they are an artist. Definitions 2, 3, and 5 for artist would apply, but definition 7 is the one that really clinches the argument: "Obsolete. an artisan." And while artisan doesn't have as many definitions as artist, if you scroll down the page to the british dictionary entry, and you look at the second definition, you find "obsolete an artist." Given that this is a setting based on MEDIEVAL JAPAN the argument that obsolete definitions of words DO APPLY. Links to dictionary.com entries below.

So, in conclusion, neither the lore nor the semantics involved suggest that artisan does not apply here, so can we please go back to discussing the cards as cards in a card game?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/artisan?s=t

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/artist

4 hours ago, cforfar said:

Since we are not explicitly given the information if she is or is not a flower shop owner I would go with what the card says. If it says artisan then my assumption is that she does this for a living. Not everyone in Rokugan is a Samurai, and there is clearly a economy. And as you pointed out not everyone can be a rich samurai or daimyo and thus have real jobs. 

Plus this could be the duty this person has for their lord, thus making it their job. In old L5R the samurai caste represented all levels of nobility, but largely referred to the buke caste. The buke were all samurai without titles or lands. Buke despite being nobility were generally not wealthy. They generally had a yearly stipend to pay various expenses they could not refer to their lord's coffers, as well as for entertainment. The old lore also made it a deathly offense for someone not of the samurai caste to even touch a sword. So by default all official swordsmiths were samurai, yet their job was to make swords. All clans had a number of samurai caste artisans who were expected to make various goods from the practical to the artistic, for various purposes. The Crane are most heavily focused on producing works of art, both for the general betterment of life as well as to fuel their extensive system of favors and gifts. Those lower nobility tasked with those endeavors would be artisans.

While the role of samurai in general is a military one, the extent of how many are expected to directly serve that role waxes and wanes even in historical Japan. The term tends to be synonymous with bushi, but it has some wider and older meanings. It becomes a bit of a semantic game whether the military caste in a highly regimented society is considered nobility or not. The lines tend to blur with the true lords on one end and the middle castes on the other.

5 hours ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

I agree with @Mon no Oni here; though the terms have some vagueness and are often used interchangeably, an artisan is usually someone doing the activity as a means of gainful employment. The baker Jeffery Hamelman made this differentiation in his book, “Bread”: an artist makes works or arrangements completely new and never seen before while an artisan makes something already invented but with high quality, repeatedly and consistently. The former is about creativity, the later is about craftsmenship.

Rokugani samurai are nobility and hence rich due to their status, and as such do not need jobs, and needing a job would imply they don’t have enough money to sit around all day writing haiku and contemplating the beauty of gardens etc etc.

Artisan sounds cool is probably the reason it became the card title, but unless the person in the picture is running a flower arrangement business she is probably an artist.

More likely she has the duty of providing consistent flower arrangements for the needs of the Crane courtiers of wherever she's posted. She may not be paid a wage anymore than a Yojimbo is, but that is still a job that fits your description of an artisan more than an artist.

Also, historically at least samurai were not the landed nobility, they were the mercenary retainers of the actual landed nobility. More or less.

You're all wrong. The sword is curved

3 hours ago, psychie said:

Also, that lady is a courtier, not a samurai, and while that is in the same level of caste there is a distinction.

Sorry, but that’s totally wrong. Samurai are divided into bushi (warriors), Shugenja, and courtiers. Yes, a courtier IS a samurai. That’s why they’re allowed to wear a Daisho, tough they usually only carry the wakizashi as a sign of their status. And that’s why you see so many duels in court, due to insults, figurative or reals, from one courtier to another. Of course, the ones to fight said duels are the bushi (that’s the reason why courtiers do not carry a katana, so they can designate a champion to defend them. If you carry a katana, you’re supposed to be skilled enough with it to defend yourself)

Courtiers, in fact, did not inherit land from their families or position, so they have to give their best to acquire “wealth” on court, through political favors. And some through art. Which is not sold, by the way, but used as gifts. Or if you’re good enough, you can become the teacher of said art to a samurai from a powerful family, increasing your influence.

1 hour ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Also, historically at least samurai were not the  landed  nobility, they were the mercenary retainers of t   he actual landed nobility. More or less.       

This is true of Japanese samurai, which is why I made the distinction of Rokugani samurai, which are (or at least were) a very romanticized version of a narrow span of historical samurai.

6 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

First, Samurai  are not nobil  ity

My understanding of the L5R lore (which may have changed) is that samurai constitute a noble caste, many of whom will be lesser nobles, yes, but they are by no means commoners.

Again, the Rokugani samurai are a very romanticized version of real samurai, and they are often presented as wealthy (especially Crane.) Not filthy rich perhaps, but much better off than the other castes of Rokugan.

4 hours ago, psychie said:

Also  , being rich does not necessarily mean all you do is sit on your butt all day, because if you don't have enough of an income to supp  ort a lavish and extravagant lifestyle, the money runs out fast,

Rokugani samurai (especially Crane) are indeed often presented like this; sitting around watching cherry blossoms and thinking about honor and what-have-you, which I have always assumed was based on the popular image of Japanese samurai as these artistic and contemplative warrior-poets.

I would point out that in the real world context, running out of money (and as a result, influence) is exactly what happened to a lot of the Edo period nobility in Japan (which are often presented as samurai) and I think you can see a lot of influence on the fictional creation of Rokugani samurai (especially the Crane Clan) from this image of Edo period samurai.

As a fictional creation, however, Rokugani samurai do not have to worry about things like real economies or social shifts until the narrative decides that they do, hence some aspects of their lives will be un-realistic and “non-historical.”

Issues of poverty for samurai did come up in the old lore. In the very first adventure in the 1st RPG book the issue of bribery comes up. Yes, the samurai of the Crane clan are generally wealthy. Even the peasant and lower castes are generally wealthy among the Crane. The clans will generally feed a samurai before a farmer, so in times of famine the benefits of being nobility matter. For some clans, such as the Dragon and Crab, samurai do not have much personal wealth beyond armaments.

For ronin, who are still samurai and still noble though with certain issues being with a lord, dealing with poverty was a big part of their stories. Some of the minor clans are extremely poor as well. The Badger after losing their ancestral lands were having trouble keeping solvent and almost operated as a large band of ronin. The Sparrow are so poor the samurai have to engage in farming alongside the commoners.

Samurai in Rokugan do have to worry about economics, however they are not supposed to. They generally have a steady decent paying job. A lord is supposed to provide everything a samurai needs, but there can often be a point of contention on that. The lords do not have unlimited resources. Some stories require the players to get down into such issues. It really depends on the needs of the story. A samurai who indulges too much on their lord's having to pay for expenses will most certainly get in trouble.

I'm mostly going off an old lore perspective here. I would agree that their will be unrealistic and non-historical portrayals. As mentioned by others it is a fantastical romanticized setting with a lot of peculiarities. It will always come down to what story the developers want to tell.

4 hours ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

This is true of Japanese samurai, which is why I made the distinction of Rokugani samurai, which are (or at least were) a very romanticized version of a narrow span of historical samurai.

I think this is a mistaken impression based on the fact that a lot of the viewpoint characters are family daimyo and thus actually the landed nobility. But if you consider their retainers, many of those are also samurai but they obviously work for a living.

7 hours ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

My understanding of the L5R lore (which may have changed) is that samurai constitute a noble caste, many of whom will be lesser nobles, yes, but they are by no means commoners.

Of course they’re not commoners. They’re samurai. That’s a caste itself. It’s true that nobles are samurai, but not all samurai are nobles.

There are 4 groups in Rokugan:

Samurai (nobles & warriors), clergy, Bonge or Heimin (workers, farmers, merchants) and Hinin (non-persons, like geishas or morticians).

Now, inside the samurai, there are the Kuge and the Buke, and also the ronin. The Kuge are the upper-class (daimyos, emerald/Jade/obsidian champions, clan champions, imperial chancellor...). The emperor himself is the highest ranking member of the Kuge. They’re the “nobility” of rokugan.

Then you have the Buke, which are samurai that serve other samurai. They have no lands or titles. They still can have some positions as governors, magistrates, hatamotos, karo... but they’re not nobility.

And lastly you have the ronin, that are still samurai, but because they have no lord to serve, they’re distrusted.

You both make good points about the make-up of Rokugani samurai. I appear to have conflated nobles and the samurai caste in my head somewhere (I still feel like I remember reading that all samurai were nobles of some variety back in the RPG 1st edition, but my memory is probably hazy.) And now that you mention it, the references to the buke do seem familiar.

But, as mentioned, the setting leans heavily on the image of romanticized samurai noble elite, which is more what my main point is about. I feel “artist” better matches the aesthetic of the setting and the card in particular, but YMMV.

(I feel there is also a discussion about whether ikebana is an “art” or a “craft”, and what those two terms even encompass, but I am probably not qualified to comment on ikebana and decidedly not inclined to have that discussion on a message board.)

Troll5R just posted previews to their spoilers.

64 - Volcanic Troll - Dragon Dynasty Character - 3M 3P for 3 Fate

75 - Hawk Tattoo - Dragon Conflict Attachment - +1M +0P for 1 Fate

The full preview should be out next week, but we can get them on the list now.

9 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Troll5R just posted previews to their spoilers.

64 - Volcanic Troll - Dragon Dynasty Character - 3M 3P for 3 Fate

75 - Hawk Tattoo - Dragon Conflict Attachment - +1M +0P for 1 Fate

The full preview should be out next week, but we can get them on the list now.

1 hour ago, Coyote Walks said:

Ohhh... deary me...

Someone hide this before the Phoenix catch wind of it. They'll be insufferably smug for months .

That is a pretty steep honor loss. I mean it's potentially turning a battle where you just have more people into a win, but, at what cost.

I'm content with Spreading the Darkness for now.

25 minutes ago, Mangod said:

Ohhh... deary me...

Someone hide this before the Phoenix catch wind of it. They'll be insufferably smug for months .

Altansarnai: "Ok so yes, it's a Djinn trapped in that Ruby..........hey look over there, the Crab are actually doing Maho!"

Phoenix Inquisitors turn their gaze towards the wall.

Tadaka raises his hand: "Don't worry boys, I'll take care of this"

Phoenix Inquisitors turn their gaze back to the Unicorn........only to see a cloud of dust

1 hour ago, Mangod said:

Ohhh... deary me...

Someone hide this before the Phoenix catch wind of it. They'll be insufferably smug for months .

We TOLD YOU. Everyone forgets that the Phoenix are right, and what happens? Beings of smokeless fire rampaging across the countryside...

1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

That is a pretty steep honor loss. I mean it's potentially turning a battle where you just have more people into a win, but, at what cost.

I'm content with Spreading the Darkness for now.

Shame that Uni doesn’t have a Fire role right now, because this combo sooo well with Force of the River. Then move Shono to the conflict and voilà! +16 MIL for a mere 1 Fate and three honor.

32 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Shame that Uni doesn’t have a Fire role right now, because this combo sooo well with Force of the River. Then move Shono to the conflict and voilà! +16 MIL for a mere 1 Fate and three honor.

I think the biggest get from a Fire role right now would be the ability to use Feast or Famine......as none of the cards currently previewed are legal.

Honestly, I'm not sure that I would go chasing a fire role just for this card. It's good, don't get me wrong. It almost assuredly wins a any battle you can resolve it in, as Unicorn will more than likely have superior numbers, however, this drastically changes the other cards you can use, because that honor loss is for real

Personally I think the best trick we've seen, that causes honor loss, for the Unicorn to use is Spread the Darkness.

Child of the Plains turns it into a serious combo. Completely negating your opponent's ability to interact with your for such a low cost is very good. At the very least you force your opponent to expend a large amount of resources to prevent a break........and it opens a path for Fallen in Battle to finally be a thing. I've already got this list on the back burned waiting for the full cycle to go live.

6 hours ago, Mangod said:

Ohhh... deary me...

Someone hide this before the Phoenix catch wind of it. They'll be insufferably smug for months .

So exactly the same as always?

7 hours ago, Mangod said:

Ohhh... deary me...

Someone hide this before the Phoenix catch wind of it. They'll be insufferably smug for months .

I mean, it's the job of the Isawa to Know...so we already knew about this card for a couple weeks now, at least.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to sitting back watching smugly as the world burns under Unicorn madness.