1 hour ago, nitrobenz said:

...so does Vectored Thrusters, and Burnout Slam... Yeah you can easily add things to get more than 4 actions on your bar, but as @Lightningclaw said: there's currently no ships with more than 4 native actions.

So to get evade action on the Silencer's action bar you have to give something up. In terms of errata/redesin/alt-design you give up one of the current actions (focus, lock, boost, roll), or you give it an upgrade that adds the action (elite, tech, system, mod, title). The clearest compromise in my opinion would be with a title, but the Vanguard already has a (tiny) defensive buff...

that doesnt follow. youre using a logical fallacy to prove a rule exists, where it may or may not exist in the designers game philosophy.

there werent large ships until there were, there werent epic ships until there were. the lack of a mechanic does not preclude its future release

2 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

That’s the point though I was making. If it wasn’t the freaking millenium falcon it should have been destroyed 10 times over. We have seen as tough or tougher ships drop like a sack of hammers but because it’s a plot armor main character driving they survive on 10% adrenaline and 90% bull.

The falcon wasn’t a defensive powerhouse it outmanuevered people including tie fighers. Just saying, the argument it’s not dodging is weak because on screen that’s exactly what it’s doing.

OK, say the evade does not represent deflectors or such. That it is strictly the pilot pushing the ship to be more dodgy. The Falcon is a tad more maneuverable than a stock YT-1300. It is a converted transport that is upgraded to add a little more dodge. The Lancer is a purpose built pursuit vehicle. So stock from the factory floor you'd expect it to be pretty nimble for it's size. More so than a freighter. That is reflected in it's 2 agil and that if the pilot is really concentrating they can be even more elusive And the VCX-100 can only dodge at all when that is all the pilot is doing. With a zero agil, it means if the pilot isn't fully concentrating on dodging with an evade, any shots are guaranteed hits. And even if the pilot is putting all their energy into evading, they can *at best* make a single shot slightly less accurate but that second ship attacking it can't be avoided. If you think about it like that, it is pretty thematic.

So why don't all ship have evade as an option? Well, for one it makes the ships different. It is a game still and we want the ships to have different feel to them. Thematically, the X-wing is a beginner's ship. It is basically a combat version of a T-16 which is a civilian vehicle. (Why they sell armed civilian vehicles is a topic for another discussion!) So much of the ship is automated. It would self stabilize while flying. Much like a car with traction control it means the novice can drive it easier but unless you can turn it off it mean the expert can't make most of the vehicle. Most of the rebel ships would be this way, since they need ships anyone can fly, not just ace pilots. So most rebel ships can't evade because the firmware of the ship is designed to keep it steady in flight. Reduced agility, less evasive, but they make up for it with shields and more firepower.

My point is, that to give the silencer an option for an evade action, all you'd have to do is add an upgrade that "added the evade action" to the upgrade bar. That's all. I get that nothing has more than 4 native actions. ****, I'd consider giving up autothrusters on Kylo if I could take a mod that let me take an evade action, especially if it were a free action. Like, "If you performed a white or red maneuver this turn and did not overlap, assign one evade token to your ship". (3)

*rationale

but yeah, sometimes the ships that don't have evade don't make sense to me.

A second Silencer title

Quote

TIE Silencer only. Title.

You may equip a second title upgrade.

Your action bar gains the [evade] icon. Your upgrade bar gains the [missile] icon.

0 pts.

Now it's fair for the points and to the movie.

9 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Which really just means they should have added the following line to Hera's pilot ability.

"Your action bar gains the Evade action".

Also, whats really more egregious is that certain ships DON'T have the Evade action. Like the Silencer.

Or the StarViper.

Firespray and VCX-100, to me, always seemed to represent electronic countermeasures as much as physical nimbleness. Probably also the G-1A if I think about it (which I never do). The Ghost, per the show, often didn't appear clearly on scanners (or spoofed it's transponders or such), and Slave One was supposed to have it's own sort of anti-detection capacities. Representing this in part by Evade tokens seems fine.

9 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

Because they were trying to make the ships mechanically interesting and diverse.

I think you're spot on and it was a good idea when there was a limited number of ships in the game. Now that there are considerably more ships on the board this is becoming a problem. Maybe the devs never thought the game would take off like it did?

Making ships different is easy when they are designed for different tasks. Take the F 104 and the F 16 as an example. The Starfighter was designed as a bomber interceptor and the Falcon as an air superiority fighter. Both would have the same straights but the F 104 should be limited to a 2 bank and a 3 bank/turn while the F 16 should have access to bank/turns at all 3 speeds. What happens when the ship's are designed for the same or similar roles? How do you keep them different enough to be interesting but similar enough to be "real"?

I think a different design philosophy should've been implemented from the start. All small based ships should have had access to all the same maneuvers from the start. The differences being noted by the difficulty of the maneuvers. Hindsight being what it is, it's easy to look back and comment. We don't know what constraints the devs had to deal with.

7 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

that doesnt follow. youre using a logical fallacy to prove a rule exists, where it may or may not exist in the designers game philosophy.

there werent large ships until there were, there werent epic ships until there were. the lack of a mechanic does not preclude its future release

De facto

The Lancer-class first came into prominence with the (canon) book Dark Disciple - where Asajj Ventress piloted one equipped with stealth technology, and in the Rebels TV series with Ketsu Onyo, who had a very, very fast ship. So the evade token there makes sense.

The Ghost has plot-armour, therefore can do anything it wants to.

I've always assumed the evade action on low agility ships to represent tougher than average armour or shields.

The only real issue I have with it is why the Decimator doesn't have it.

For those who want the Silencer to be able to get evades, Advanced Optics and Debris Gambit are both in the box with it, and Optics/FCS/Debris Gambit is a solid loadout for Silencers. And for /sfs, too.

I thought about the evade/focus actions before this discussion came up and decided they could have been implemented differently. Both could have been either free actions or maybe as a ship action.

If you find yourself in the middle of a furball and chose an evade action, you gain the token but your attack should suffer. It could be a penalty as strong as rolling one fewer red dice or a boost to the defender's green dice. Play testing would be needed to determine a fair penalty.

The same situation applies to the focus action. You're in the middle of the furball but decide you want the kill more than trying to avoid being shot at and choose the focus action. In this case you get the boost to your attack but some type of penalty to your defensive roll. Again, play testing is needed to determine the strength of the boost to the attack and the penalty for defense.

This would change the focus action to being strictly offensive in nature and no change to the evade action. It would make both actions available to any ship but with the associated drawbacks.

This is just my musings to make these two actions make more sense in game play. Whether or not it's a viable idea remains to be determined.

11 hours ago, Djaskim609 said:

*rationale

but yeah, sometimes the ships that don't have evade don't make sense to me.

22 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

4 action limit

What would you give up for it?

Which is a totally arbitrary limit FFG has for the cards. Make the images smaller and you can fit another. No reason to let that hold you back.

9 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Which is a totally arbitrary limit FFG has for the cards. Make the images smaller and you can fit another. No reason to let that hold you back.

You can fit 6 or 7 before it starts getting crowded. Once you get to 10, they're all mushed together, but still legible at the standard size.

I'm not sure if they've said "we'll never make a ship with more than 4 native actions as a design principle" or merely "a ship with more than 4 actions is a design space we don't yet need to explore".

After all, how much would a Focus/Evade/Boost/Barrel/Target AGI3 ship with a PS9 pilot cost? Quite a bit more than Kylo, I'd imagine.

I doubt the Silencer would really deserve much if any price increase. The more actions a ship has available, the less valuable each individual action becomes because the ship isn't using them all each turn. Best case its using 2 of them a turn with PTL.

Given that the Silencer is likely just a wee bit overcosted the Evade action wouldn't have been out of the question.

Meh, maybe we'll get a new title eventually that gives it the Evade action and a Missile slot.

The Silencer doesn't deserve much of a price increase, but it's important to note that it easily performs 3 actions a turn with FCS. Albeit that's not on the action bar, but it's a fundamental part of the ship.

The trouble with giving a ship like that the evade action is that it's pretty much an auto-win against all fat turret lists except Nym, where it's still at a major advantage. Ghost/Fenn can punch through focus + autos, but not focus + autos + evade with any kind of reliability.

I'd imagine a ship with 5 actions coming in the form of a 4 actions ship, with an auto-include 0 point title that grants the fifth action as free if some condition is met similar to X7. That gives the ship 2/5 actions base, if played right and a potential 1-2 more if the right upgrades are used.

And as for missiles, I'm not aware of any reason to believe the Silencer has munitions, as only the TIE/sf escorts fire in that scene.

2 hours ago, Astech said:

The Silencer doesn't deserve much of a price increase, but it's important to note that it easily performs 3 actions a turn with FCS. Albeit that's not on the action bar, but it's a fundamental part of the ship.

The trouble with giving a ship like that the evade action is that it's pretty much an auto-win against all fat turret lists except Nym, where it's still at a major advantage. Ghost/Fenn can punch through focus + autos, but not focus + autos + evade with any kind of reliability.

I'd imagine a ship with 5 actions coming in the form of a 4 actions ship, with an auto-include 0 point title that grants the fifth action as free if some condition is met similar to X7. That gives the ship 2/5 actions base, if played right and a potential 1-2 more if the right upgrades are used.

And as for missiles, I'm not aware of any reason to believe the Silencer has munitions, as only the TIE/sf escorts fire in that scene.

Kylo ren launches the missiles into the hangar bay to destroy all the rebel fighters.

As for a ship with 4 actions on the action bar and a title giving an additional, I think the TAP with the advanced v1 title fits the bill.

1 hour ago, Cap116 said:

Kylo ren launches the missiles into the hangar bay to destroy all the rebel fighters.

As for a ship with 4 actions on the action bar and a title giving an additional, I think the TAP with the advanced v1 title fits the bill.

Nonsense! The real Kylo in my head wouldn't have that kind of weaponry!

I suppose it was a balance thing; maybe to stop Kylo carrying Ion Pulse Missiles?

On 2018-04-05 at 3:18 AM, Commander Kaine said:

A second Silencer title

TIE Silencer only. Title.

You may equip a second title upgrade.

Your action bar gains the [evade] icon. Your upgrade bar gains the [missile] icon.

0 pts.

Now it's fair for the points and to the movie.

Be careful what you wish for!!

The TIE Shhh has Tech+Syst (giving you amazing possibilities) and +EPT on the named ones. I am pretty sure they have playtested with evade and omitted evade with good reason.

The ship further is dial-power-creep in its purest form, that dial is just sick. Plus Kylo's ability being NPE in itself.

With the title above it would be pushed over the edge.

1 hour ago, Managarmr said:

Be careful what you wish for!!

The TIE Shhh has Tech+Syst (giving you amazing possibilities) and +EPT on the named ones. I am pretty sure they have playtested with evade and omitted evade with good reason.

The ship further is dial-power-creep in its purest form, that dial is just sick. Plus Kylo's ability being NPE in itself.

With the title above it would be pushed over the edge.

I am aware.

I just don't think it would be worse than the Rebel cancer we see flying around.

I would not be on board with giving the silencer an evade

it's perfectly balanced as is, being something you have to actually dedicate thought into flying

that's the model of what the game should be like, not more "cancer"

2 hours ago, Astech said:

Nonsense! The real Kylo in my head wouldn't have that kind of weaponry!

I suppose it was a balance thing; maybe to stop Kylo carrying Ion Pulse Missiles?

I think it was more a “they didn’t see the movie before designing the ship” thing. There have been some issues with every ship released around a movie release that come from just not having enough info (no K2-SO, Poe at PS 8, etc).

I mean, it worked out well for balance reasons, but I think this is the first time a ship has been released without a weapon that or demonstrably has in the films.

24 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I would not be on board with giving the silencer an evade

it's perfectly balanced as is, being something you have to actually dedicate thought into flying

that's the model of what the game should be like, not more "cancer"

At one point, we will just have to accept that cancer exists, and it doesn't seem to be going away.

To me, it seems there is enough evidence to suggest that either through not caring, or through mistakes, FFG will continue to create cancer (most likely Scum and Rebels at that)

It's not fun to play when I play the game that the "game should be like", but my opponent is playing sth broken. I can't realistically expect my fellow players to respect my sensibilities when it comes to the game... Let the past die. Give me that cancer.

I mean, scouts got nerfed HARD

we don't have to accept said "cancer", as we have precedent for FFG finally doing stuff about it... eventually