Rule - Trap and Trapmaster

By Pulciaro, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

I have a question about how to apply the trapmaster card and the spider queen ability (that is the same) to trap card effect.

The trapmaster card says:

"Play this card at the start of your turn and place it face up in front of you. Lower the threat cost of the Trap cards you play by 1. Trap cards that deal damage deal an additional 2 wounds."

My players suggest me that the bonus damage given by trapmaster has to be added to the card writing of the trap so if the trap Crushing Block say:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 4 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 4 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

The card with the trapmaster will be:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 6 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 6 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

Or with the Spider Queen will be:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 5 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 5 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

In my opinion the damage added by the trapmaster ability cannot be avoided rolling more dice because the card don't say to do this.

I haven't found any hint on the rulebook or on the official faq can you help me?

We play with Journey into the dark and road to legend.

Pulciaro said:

My players suggest me that the bonus damage given by trapmaster has to be added to the card writing of the trap so if the trap Crushing Block say:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 4 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 4 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

The card with the trapmaster will be:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 6 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 6 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

Or with the Spider Queen will be:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 5 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 5 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

In my opinion the damage added by the trapmaster ability cannot be avoided rolling more dice because the card don't say to do this.

You are correct. If the trap card says to do damage (or wounds, which are not normally the same thing but are confused in the case of traps and trapmaster) then the trap card does 2 extra damage. No extra dice are rolled to reduce the extra damage

The Spider Queen, with Trapmaster in play, playing a Crushing block will effectively be:
"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 7 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 4 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

Corbon said:

Pulciaro said:

My players suggest me that the bonus damage given by trapmaster has to be added to the card writing of the trap so if the trap Crushing Block say:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 4 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 4 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

The card with the trapmaster will be:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 6 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 6 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

Or with the Spider Queen will be:

"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 5 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 5 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

In my opinion the damage added by the trapmaster ability cannot be avoided rolling more dice because the card don't say to do this.

You are correct. If the trap card says to do damage (or wounds, which are not normally the same thing but are confused in the case of traps and trapmaster) then the trap card does 2 extra damage. No extra dice are rolled to reduce the extra damage

The Spider Queen, with Trapmaster in play, playing a Crushing block will effectively be:
"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 7 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 4 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

I'm sorry, but i don't think so.

In my group, after a few discussion, we decide to use the cards like Pulciaro's players say... One of the reason is that some traps can be avoided, contrarily the pulciaro's idea make the damage impossible to avoid...

is there something official about this question?

p.s. sorry for my english :D

We've played it as Corbon describes. I'm not official but that's my two cents.

I told to my player that stating that the +1 of the queen or +2 extra damage of the trapmaster is avoidable is like adding text to the card. Manual, card and faq don't clarify this like there is no doubt about the added damage.

Looking the card list I found one card that can help in the question:

a trap that do 4 damage and with 2 dice you can avoid 2 damage for every surge. In this case if we put the +1 damage of the spider queen how is possible to use a third dice to avoid damage?

Is there any faq or answered question by developer that can help?

Trandis said:

I'm sorry, but i don't think so.

In my group, after a few discussion, we decide to use the cards like Pulciaro's players say... One of the reason is that some traps can be avoided, contrarily the pulciaro's idea make the damage impossible to avoid...

is there something official about this question?

The cards say to add +X damage, they do not say to add +Y dice to avoid the additional damage. This is an example of the rules saying one thing and the players thinking another. There's nothing in the rules or on the card to suggest the number of dice rolled to avoid damage is increased accordingly, so the trap now does more damage than the heroes have a chance to avoid.

Saying that the dice should be increased because the trap can theoretically be avoided is applying logic to the situation. Logic does not always apply to Descent. There are a great many examples of rules that defy logic in this game, and this is one of the least painful ones.

Trandis said:

snip

You are correct. If the trap card says to do damage (or wounds, which are not normally the same thing but are confused in the case of traps and trapmaster) then the trap card does 2 extra damage. No extra dice are rolled to reduce the extra damage

The Spider Queen, with Trapmaster in play, playing a Crushing block will effectively be:
"Play this card when a hero moves into an empty space that is not adjacent to any obstacles. Place a one space rubble token on that space. The hero suffers 7 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 4 power dice. Then, move the hero to an adjacent space of your choice."

I'm sorry, but i don't think so.

In my group, after a few discussion, we decide to use the cards like Pulciaro's players say... One of the reason is that some traps can be avoided, contrarily the pulciaro's idea make the damage impossible to avoid...

is there something official about this question?

p.s. sorry for my english :D

Yes. The cards themselves.
Trapmaster
...Trap cards that deal damage (read wounds) deal an additional 2 wounds.
No mention of additional dice to avoid damage. SImply add 2 to whatever number of wounds are caused by the Trap card.

Traps that are avoided by a single dice are still avoided by that dice - eg Spiked Pit
...Unless the hero rolls a blank on one power die, he falls into the pit and suffers 2 wounds (ignoring armor).
If the hero rolls a blank he suffers no damage because the card says he only suffers damage if he doesn't roll a blank. With Trapmaster in play he will suffer 4 wounds unless he rolls a blank - in which case he will suffer no wounds.

Traps that are avoided by multiple rolls suffer extra damage that can not be avoided. Nowhere does anything say they get extra rolls to avoid damage. Eg Crushing Block
The hero suffers 4 wounds (ignoring armor), reduced by 1 wound for each surge he rolls on 4 power dice
The hero suffers the wounds regardless, though they might be reduced (to zero even). With Trapmaster in play he will suffer 6 wounds, reduced by the surges on 4 dice.

You are free to play houserules, but the official rules are clear and simple. Simply read the cards and do as they say.
Of course, Italian (my guess based on names) rules might be differently translated... cool.gif

Yes we are Italian and all the game is translated.

The translation is correct but the question was made because all the trap card that we have in vanilla and RtL have the possibility to totally avoid damage. But if you follow only the text the conclusion for me is that the number of dice to roll to avoid are not incremented by trapmaster.