What force power do you use to do a classic force push like in the movies?

Move.

Move....plus

Control upgrade allows you to move objects fast enough to do damage

Magnitude upgrade(s) can allow you to affect multiple targets

Range upgrade allows you to affect a target at short range

Strength upgrade allows you to affect Sil 1 (human sized) targets.

To fling a stormtrooper into a wall, say, 5 metres away, and deliver 10 + success damage you would need 3 force pips (1 to activate Move, 1 to activate the Range upgrade and 1 to activate the Strength upgrade) and a ranged attack using Discipline + 1P.

There is some debate about whether this would work, by the way, as the wording of the RAW state that all of the above works if you're going to throw a stormtrooper at another stormtrooper, doing equal damage to both. Personally, I find it just silly to say I can toss Stormtrooper FN-2187 at THX-1138 and do 10 damage to both, but I can't toss FN-2187 at a permacrete wall and do 10 damage to him. *shrug*

1 hour ago, Daronil said:

To fling a stormtrooper into a wall, say, 5 metres away, and deliver 10 + success damage you would need 3 force pips (1 to activate Move, 1 to activate the Range upgrade and 1 to activate the Strength upgrade) and a ranged attack using Discipline + 1P.

Untrue. 5 meters is well within Short Range, which is the default range of the power. Your scenario only needs 2 Force Points (or pips) to activate. 1 For the base power, 1 for the Strength upgrade.

1 hour ago, Daronil said:

There is some debate about whether this would work, by the way, as the wording of the RAW state that all of the above works if you're going to throw a stormtrooper at another stormtrooper, doing equal damage to both. Personally, I find it just silly to say I can toss Stormtrooper FN-2187 at THX-1138 and do 10 damage to both, but I can't toss FN-2187 at a permacrete wall and do 10 damage to him. *shrug*

It works fine, the wall just may not take any damage if it is reinforced with armor.

1 hour ago, GroggyGolem said:

Untrue. 5 meters is well within Short Range, which is the default range of the power. Your scenario only needs 2 Force Points (or pips) to activate. 1 For the base power, 1 for the Strength upgrade.

It works fine, the wall just may not take any damage if it is reinforced with armor.

Ah, my bad. I was thinking Engaged was the default, but you're right.

I agree that it works fine. I'm just saying that I've seen people argue that it's not how Move works. I think they're wrong, but I was just making "full disclosure".

16 hours ago, SithArissa said:

Move.

11 hours ago, Daronil said:

Move....plus

Control upgrade allows you to move objects fast enough to do damage

Magnitude upgrade(s) can allow you to affect multiple targets

Range upgrade allows you to affect a target at short range

Strength upgrade allows you to affect Sil 1 (human sized) targets.

To fling a stormtrooper into a wall, say, 5 metres away, and deliver 10 + success damage you would need 3 force pips (1 to activate Move, 1 to activate the Range upgrade and 1 to activate the Strength upgrade) and a ranged attack using Discipline + 1P.

There is some debate about whether this would work, by the way, as the wording of the RAW state that all of the above works if you're going to throw a stormtrooper at another stormtrooper, doing equal damage to both. Personally, I find it just silly to say I can toss Stormtrooper FN-2187 at THX-1138 and do 10 damage to both, but I can't toss FN-2187 at a permacrete wall and do 10 damage to him. *shrug*

In addition to Move , there is also the Bind movement upgrade which moves a target one range band either towards or away from the user. The key differences between this and the Move Hurl upgrade is that Bind also immobilizes the target, and doesn't inherently result in damage, since it's not a ranged attack. It simply pushes or pulls the target.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

In addition to Move , there is also the Bind movement upgrade which moves a target one range band either towards or away from the user. The key differences between this and the Move Hurl upgrade is that Bind also immobilizes the target, and doesn't inherently result in damage, since it's not a ranged attack. It simply pushes or pulls the target.

I always imagined that being what Kylo Ren used a couple of times. Once when he grabbed and dragged the officer to him after his console-slashing tantrum, and again when he pinned Rey. Also, thinking about it, when he froze the blaster bolt, though that could have been a "fluff example" of Protection.

Just now, Daronil said:

I always imagined that being what Kylo Ren used a couple of times. Once when he grabbed and dragged the officer to him after his console-slashing tantrum, and again when he pinned Rey. Also, thinking about it, when he froze the blaster bolt, though that could have been a "fluff example" of Protection.

Yep. That's my view as well.

Move and Bind can definitely both do it, Move can just do it more consistently.

With Bind your ability to cause damage is completely at the whim of the dice, did you roll Dark Side or not? Then add to that you must suffer conflict to cause damage to the target.

Move on the other hand allows you to make the decisions before rolling the dice. You may still need to gain Conflict, but that has nothing to do with causing damage.

On a personal note I have a couple of simple house rules for throwing enemies around:

1. Minion groups are a single target, but with a Silhouette 1 bigger than their normal Silhouette. This means you don’t need to activate Magnitude an excessive number of times, and then need a silly number of Advantage for the Autofire. You do a flat 20+Success Damage to normal groups which is often enough to eliminate three or four, a decent amount.

2. To get one target NPC to hit another target NPC and cause damage to them both you need to activate Magnitude. Basically everyone that gets injured has to be considered a target, otherwise they just hit the floor/wall/ceiling or other hard object. This makes it much harder to say “I throw all 5 of those minions at that one Nemesis, 10 Damage each and 50 for the Nemesis” since you would need to activate Magnitude for 10 targets instead of 5, and spend the Advantage as well

I would say Bind is more the 'Force Choke' ability rather than the Push.

8 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

I would say Bind is more the 'Force Choke' ability rather than the Push.

by itself, the basic Bind power simply immobilizes the target. It is the use of Dark Side pips which inflicts damage, and it is the Movement upgrade which is the "Force Push,/Force Pull" capability for the power--specifically to push someone away or pull someone towards the user, rather than inflict damage --as an alternative to Move's Hurl upgrade, which is primarily designed for hurling things at people as a range attack for damage. This is what we see Kylo Ren do when he pulls that First Order officer to him, and when he pushes Rey away from him. In both cases, the targets were moved a distance, and immobilized for a short time, but were otherwise unhurt. Soit is ultimately up to what your intended goal is. Are you trying to throw someone or something at someone else to injure them, or are you trying to push someone away from you or pull that person to you without necessarily causing damage? That is what should determine which power and upgrade you use.

17 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

I would say Bind is more the 'Force Choke' ability rather than the Push.

Definitely, that would be the standard description of using that power. It’s a hold, gripping the target with the Force and restricting their body from doing things. It you’re over zealous and use the dark side then you crush a little too tightly. If you are gentle then you hold and can move the target, but the Force envelopes them for an extended period of time.

Move is a move, you’ not wrapping the target in the Force to restrict and direct them, you push objects. You can do it softly with the basic power to just relocate a target, like pushing them away from you. Or you can do it violently using the Hurl Upgrade.

So both Powers can be described in similar ways, but it’s hard to describe them the same:

example 1 , pushing a target away from you with no damage, Engaged Range to short:

Move: activate basic power and strength upgrades once, 2 Force Pips of either flavour. Target is moved, that is all.

Bind: activate basic power and control, 2 Pips must use only light side. Target is moved and Immobilised.

comparison: Move requires less dice luck, but your target can act normally.

Example 2: as with example 1, but Damage must be caused

Move: An Easy Discipline Check must be made (plus Defence and Adversary etc), with the same number of Force Pips. Success deals 10+Success-Soak Damage to the target, you have the opportunity to spend Advantage/Triumph as per other combat checks.

Bind: As per Example 1, but must spend at least 1 Dark Side pip, including a Destiny Point, Conflict and Strain. Target suffers a minimum of 2 Damage

Comparison:

Bind is Force Dice dependent, something that requires significant xp to fix, requires a Destiny Point for a light side character and absolutely requires Conflict for all characters. The damage is also very low unless you spend bucket loads of Pips, as well as the strain dealing upgrade.

Move on the other hand is a skill check that most Padwan could pass, getting better at it is less of an xp sink. There’s a good chance of some nice Advantage/Triumph to be had, which can be spent on things like disarmament, knocking prone, or even causing a Crit with a Triumph. It has no requirements for Destiny/Strain/Conflict, even though you may actually need to use the dark side it’s not a requirement. Then the damage you do will be much higher earlier in a characters life.

Conclusion: Bind “can” be a force push, but Move is much easier, more reliable, and possible for more characters with a broader range of outcomes that are flexible after the dice are rolled.

Also Minion groups count as a single target so you only need the one Strength upgrade to Move them all, however you only calculate damage once i.e. 10+Successes to the entire group.

On 4/4/2018 at 6:59 AM, FuriousGreg said:

Also Minion groups count as a single target so you only need the one Strength upgrade to Move them all, however you only calculate damage once i.e. 10+Successes to the entire group.

What about for minion groups that are spread out over short or medium range? You move all of them?

6 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

What about for minion groups that are spread out over short or medium range? You move all of them?

If you are using them as a single group then mechanically they are a single target and would all be affected, just as any damage would. However like Blast you can limit moving those that it makes sense would not be directly in the path of the push. Or you can narrate it as some troopers were thrown and others bolted or hunkered down in fear or whatever. This is part of the downside of Minion groups that balances out the up side of their higher Skill ranks. FFGSW isn't a tactical combat game and Attack rolls don't just represent a single attack so there's no reason that the Force Move (Push) couldn't be two or three pushes with the Jedi pushing part of the group with one hand and part with the other or doing one of those cinematic radius blasts like Thor or Wonder Woman do. The point being as long as it's considered a single group mechanically the whole group is affected however you choose to describe it is up to you..

It's also important to keep in mind that as the GM you can break up or create new Minion groups as you see fit. So if you have a minion group that is separated by a range band or they went into two different rooms or whatever just split them. I do this all the time because combat is fluid and Minion groups can get separated enough that narratively it no longer makes sense that they should act together so on their turn I split them to fit the new situation. The opposite can also happen when two or more Minion groups are so depleted and close enough that, if it makes sense, I form them into a new group. As a GM you should try not to abuse this but as long as it makes sense your players should be okay with it.

It's the fluidity of minion groups, combined with what seems to me as sensibility, that causes me to rule that a single minion is a valid target to be moved with the Move Force power, but not the whole group (you will need lots of Force Points or magnitude upgrades for that).

Just because they take damage as a group and can be targeted as a group with certain other skill checks (Coercion vs Discipline, for example) doesn't mean they should always be treated as a single entity by all game mechanics.

13 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

It's the fluidity of minion groups, combined with what seems to me as sensibility, that causes me to rule that a single minion is a valid target to be moved with the Move Force power, but not the whole group (you will need lots of Force Points or magnitude upgrades for that).

Just because they take damage as a group and can be targeted as a group with certain other skill checks (Coercion vs Discipline, for example) doesn't mean they should always be treated as a single entity by all game mechanics.

I get that, and Sam S. has said it's reasonable to do it as individuals, however what do you do if the damage exceeds the WT of that single minion? Mechanically damage is taken by the entire minion group and if thats the case then why wouldn't you narrate it as several minions are moved?

For example: You have a squad of four Stormtroopers (WT 5 Soak 4). Using Move you target the group and successfully roll the attack doing 10+Successes-Soak Damage (minimum 7). Like any other Attack with this result you would kill one trooper and the rest of the damage would be applied to the group so if this is the case why not count as the other trooper(s) being moved as well?

Second example: You treat each minion as a separate target and the PC goes for two, adding a Difficulty die for the additional target. The Move is a success and enough Advantages are generated to affect the second trooper (remember this would essentially be Auto-Fire so all those rules would apply). The Damage is now 10+Successes-Soak x2, in this case a minimum total of 14 damage, killing both and nearly killing a third. All you've done is increased the difficulty and the damage potential but still end up with the same narrative problem of the remaining 4 damage.

My point is that since Minion Groups are damaged as a whole there is no real reason to have other things affect them as a whole as well unless the individuals are separated in such a way that makes it impossible. However if that's the case they they should probably no longer be a single Minion group at all.

Hence my house rule. Minions in groups are treated as a single object of 1 Silhouette larger than normal. So storm troopers are Silhouette 2, and suffer 16 Damage when you throw them, killing 3

23 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

I get that, and Sam S. has said it's reasonable to do it as individuals, however what do you do if the damage exceeds the WT of that single minion? Mechanically damage is taken by the entire minion group and if thats the case then why wouldn't you narrate it as several minions are moved?

Okay first off, picking up one minion from a group and hurling him at something else (not another minion in that group) and causing enough damage to kill off two minions seems like a real edge case to me. I mean it depends on what kind of minions you're using, of course—some weaksauce minions with 4 WT and 3 Soak only need a couple successes on a Discipline check to kill two of them—but still, I think it's much more situational than the general rules regarding "targeting a minion group with the Move power."

But, if this specific situation happens (or if it becomes the favorite tactic of your Force-using PC), then you fall back on the way action resolution is outlined in the book. You don't narrate the action til after you have all the dice pips in front of you and resolve the mechanical effects.

Let's say you generate enough pips to hurl just one silhouette 1 object, but you roll well enough on your Discipline check to kill two stormtroopers (you'd need 6 successes in this case). In your narrative, you resolve it in a way that makes the most sense situationally.

• If you're attacking a rampaging acklay, and you decide to hurl stormtroopers at it (dealing 16 damage, pre-soak), maybe the acklay is hit by the stormtrooper you threw, and it rears up and charges, spearing another stormtrooper with one of its massive claws.
• If you're throwing a stormtrooper into a wall or the ground, 16 damage to the trooper, then maybe you generated enough Force power to lift up two troopers and slam them both into the wall. Or maybe the trooper you lifted is thrown with such speed and force that he slams into another trooper on the way to the wall, breaking the neck of his fellow.
• If you're hurling a trooper at another armed enemy, maybe the enemy sees the trooper coming and reflexively shoots, but narrowly misses, taking out another stormtrooper with his panicked blaster rifle shots.

There's any number of ways to handle this. And like I said, I think it's an edge case, but it still holds up just fine as long as you run with the narrative aspect of the game.

Ruling minion groups as 1 Silhouette larger is fine, but for me it takes away the mechanical power of the magnitude upgrade. I think lifting an entire group of stormtroopers (say 4-6) with the Force is a big freakin' deal. And so you should require more than just two strength upgrades to do it. Again, IMO.

But then there's this, and I question my own sensibilities regarding Force usage...

On 4/9/2018 at 4:03 PM, awayputurwpn said:

But then there's this, and I question my own sensibilities regarding Force usage...

Narrative use of Move, couldn't happen mid-encounter (until proven otherwise with EP IX).

That or Rey has like...6+ Force Rating.

Good point. Luke lifts rocks and stuff under Yoda's supervision in a relatively peaceful environment, but you don't see him doing the crap that Vader does with the same power during their duel

In any case, a group of inanimate rocks should be easier to move than group of stormtroopers who are shooting at you

On 4/9/2018 at 4:03 PM, awayputurwpn said:

Ruling minion groups as 1 Silhouette larger is fine, but for me it takes away the mechanical power of the magnitude upgrade. I think lifting an entire group of stormtroopers (say 4-6) with the Force is a big freakin' deal. And so you should require more than just two strength upgrades to do it. Again, IMO.

Here's the thing, we see Obi-Wan as a Padawan (albeit one close to graduating to Jedi Knight) rather casually blast a minion group of battle droids in TPM, with the droids themselves being Silhouette 1.

Plus, these are minion groups, and to borrow a mindset from 7th Sea 2e in regards to its brute squad mechanics, a minion group isn't meant to be a serious threat to the PCs the way a high-powered Rival or a full-on Nemesis would be. Minion groups in this game are there to provide a challenge to the PCs (given that combat is designed to be dangerous), but also aren't meant to be a major roadblock, instead being more of a speed bump that slows the PCs down on their way towards their objective.

I've been using "increase the effective Silhouette of a minion group and affect the whole group" as richardbuxton suggested for quite some time, as it allows Force user PCs that have invested XP into Move to be able to do things like blasting an entire minion group into the ground in one go, or multiple minion groups if Magnitude upgrades get involved.

Seeing as how minion groups are considered to be a single target for combat purposes, it just seems more hassle than it's really worth to invoke the Magnitude upgrade to affect individual minions.

4 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I've been using "increase the effective Silhouette of a minion group and affect the whole group" as richardbuxton suggested for quite some time, as it allows Force user PCs that have invested XP into Move to be able to do things like blasting an entire minion group into the ground in one go, or multiple minion groups if Magnitude upgrades get involved.

I just recently learned of this and I think I will implement it. Seems thematic!