Ive just finished reading the Thousand Sons novel that has come out and enjoyed it thoroughly. What amused me was little nods to the past to the first edition of rogue trader and I can only say that I think GW has a wry sense of humour sometimes. In the book Ahriman has a conversation when he describes the Emperor's original proto- Marines, the Thunder Warriors (wearing mark 1 armour Im guessing!) who are described as being

"Brutal and unsubtle creations...monstrous things. and most were eventually driven insane by their demands their enhanced physiques made upon them "

This kind of reminded me of how the original space marines during the rogue trader days who were for all intents and purposes psycopathic power armoured thugs, (with oversized heads)

. Its struck me that recently games workshop is beggining to nod back to the past and brings it forth in the current literature with a sense of longing for trhings that will never come back. There are hints here and there. For exmple the new Venerable dreadnoughts minature range they have look as if the hark back to a particular style of dreadnought that came out in EPIC in the early 90's (the one with the sunken helmet from the Stompas epic set)

Later in the book (SPOILER ALERT) Magnus is aided by waht seems to be a daemon or a spirit of LAW only for it to help Magnus make the greatest mistake in his existence. Were games workshop trying to say that The Gods of Law are infact just another facet of Tzeentch?(...head begins to hurt) and as such provide a explanation for not trying to bring back older lores or pet Trolling on net Forums.

Im bringing this up this because I was reading through that venerable chaos tome "the lost and the damned" And found something intresting. There was a forum on the net (I forget which one) where there was a biiter dispute as to weather the warhammer world did or did not not exist in 40K canon as some sort of world that was cut off from the greater galaxy by warp storms. One commentator was quite adamant that it was infact just fan stuff/rumour and that it had no basis in reality and that the only hints of it were where there were similar daemons that existed in both settings.

And yet only today in The lost and the Damned I found it! Page 77, under the heading Cosmic Monoliths

"The warhammer world is bound by storms of magic so that it remains isolated from other worlds in the human galaxy. Elsewhere the forces of the Imperium tenatiously fight the influences of chaos, so that that the open aggression of Chaos Champions and their forces is restricted to zones not controlled by the Imperium"

Wow. So it wasn't bull after all...

However I recognise that that is clearly not the case anymore and that officially the two universes are not connected anymore, so Im not going to argue to return to those august days. However it would be nice for games workshop to but this to rest somehow if only to stop the flame wars. For example they could say that it is rumoured that somewhere deep in the Koronus expanse there is a medievel world which has been cut off by violent warp storms and that one of the Primarch's landed there...and then they can put it down to unscrupulous rogue traders trying to flog off fake maps and charts.

Or Not...

Comments?

(Baron - This is not a excuse to start flaming)

You forget, if Sigmar was a lost Primarch (as I like to believe), then the wfrp Known World was at it's wfrp (roughly) renaissance tech and social levels that we see in wfrp 2500 years after the arrival of the Primarch, in what M29/M30? ... so it may well be at vastly higher tech levels by M41 - 7500 years after the present day of wfrp.

I actually firmly state my version of the wfrp setting is part of the 40K setting, but it's present day of 2514 equates to some point in the first half of M32 in the wider galaxy beyond the invisible Warpstorms that isolate the Known World. Sigmar was (originally) one of the lost Primarchs, Ulric (originally) a Space Wolf who managed to get through the Warpstorms tracking the Primarch course. Naturally this is not info that is at all known to the inhabitants of the setting, but it creates a nice conceit that explains the similarities between the settings. It also makes for some interesting scifi possibilities (old guns etc).

Primarchs can be lost in time as well as space. (E.g. I'm inclined to believe that despite [according to After Desh'ea ] Vulkan being found 'early on', he had not actually grown up as much as similar-era primarchs [i.e. he'd been on Nocturne after 'emerging from the warp'] and so was therefore somewhat more 'inexperienced', if you will, than the others. This is based largely on his 'superstitions' mentioned in Fulgrim , i.e. that he was simply 'young minded')

It's not that important. A Thousand Sons had a few other lovely bits. Kalophis, the 'weapons master' (Devastator Captain) utilises battle robots prominently in the battle at Shrike, even going so far as to 'disperse his consciousness' throughout the entire battle-cohort of them, for what its worth: I really enjoyed that.

Graham McNeil used robots and robot-imagery from early 40k lore in The Kaban Project which led into Mechanicum .

Other aspects which I've found interesting recently was the 'revelation' involved in Flight of the Raven (I won't explicitly say it, but if you've heard the audiobook you might be pleased to hear that that thing was something mentioned way-back in obscure primarch-lore!)

Even Aaron Dembski-Bowden (author of Helsreach , Soul Hunter , One Hate and Cadian Blood )'s recent blog (and comments on Warseer) has revealed his own interest in such things; he's been (by special request/his own volition) perusing the old Legio Cybernetica lore (published when he was 8 years old), and his books have been very strong on involving well-depicted Battlefleet Gothic-like scenes. ( Cadian Blood features a truly magnificent scene involving the firing of a Nova Cannon).

Simply put, you're very correct, GW seriously pushes this wry humour; or at least some of their authors do!

More examples:
- Andy Hoare's Rogue Trader duology feature a magnificent scene with an argument between a planetary official and a Dynasty member; the argument boils down to "Stop, we have the authority to shoot you down if you continue" "You don't have any guns!" "Academic, that we have the authority should be sufficient"
- McNeil's Fulgrim features a space-battle wherein an Iron Hands' supporting ship The Heart of Gold is improbably destroyed...

EDIT: On the matter of Warhammer in 40k; I understand GW has since u-turned on this and declared them 'totally seperate', yet obviously 'bordering the same warp' (whatever that means). The Warhammer background book Liber Chaotica features an old world savant 'travelling deep into the depths of the warp' and seeing visions of things like:
- The planet of the sorcerors
- The One Eyed Red King of the Sorcerors
- The Thirteen Black Crusades of the Despoiler
- The Gothic War
- Space Marines
- Bolters

All of that amidst an otherwise thick fantasy book. So they're not 'in the same universe', but they are...connected by the warp. But how deep and how far apart 'within' the warp? For my part, it would not at all surprise me to learn that the Old Ones in both universes share natures; but that perhaps 'minor gods' don't overlap between universes. (I.e. C'tan aren't running around the skies of the Warhammer World and that Taal, Myrmidia and Morr don't have overt effect in 40k, that Sotek, the Maw and Sigmar are unique to Warhammer and by reverse that 'Malice' [as per Sons of Malice ] and the Emperor etc don't exist in Warhammer World...)

As another aside: How'd folks like the vague 'overtures' of similarity between Ahriman and Nagash by the end of the novel?

Xisor said:

Wow How did McNeil get that one through past the editors! Next we will have Marvinius the Paranoid Drednought running about...

As for Malice I just read somewhere thats its that old chestnut of Malal being rehabilitated, except that GW cant quite bring themselves to bring the anti chaos God back (an intellectual rights issue apparently...oh the delicious irony). The Black and white iconography of the sons of malice, and the fact that they fight other chaotic forces is a bit more of a coincidence....

My game is set in a part of space which was sealed off over a thousand years before by the Inquisition, and has recently been re-opened, so all the Rogue Trader families with Warrants for that area from way back have returned to see what's left. I'm using this as an excuse to chuck in all sorts of stuff from the old days, including Imperial robots, which the players have already encountered. There are some other bits of not-currently-canon that they haven't discovered, but will likely draw a smile or two.

Basically, my approach is to so it as a sort of "Ultimate 40K", to borrow a comics term, picking the bits I like from the twenty-odd years of the setting. GW change their mind on canon every other week anyway, so it seems pointless to try to keep too close to official material. Also, it keeps the players on their toes, as they can't rely on their knowledge of the setting.

I do consider the Warhammer world to be part of the 40K universe, but I'm not sure if it has a place in my current campaign. That said, I do like the idea of the crew beaming down to a muddy feudal world and getting wrapped up in petty politics and Fimir-hunting!