Siebeltje said:

This is all to my understanding of things, as always

They might seem like they are, but they are different. Heroes receive damage as a result of the attack roll. Heroes receive wounds after armor and other effects (like Ghost armor, shields, etc) are applied. That's why so many of the effects like Bleed and Stun are written so that as long as you take damage, the status effect takes hold. Poison is the only one that requires wounds to be placed AFAIK.

People tend not to notice the difference because it almost always gets resolved on top of each other. For example:

OL: I do 6 damage to you ( damage, before armor )

Hero: Well, you suck. And I have 4 armor plus I'll expend my Iron Shield to soak 1 damage, so I only take 1 wound ( wounds, after applying armor )

Siebeltje said:

Basic Descent rules page 11(my emboldening)

For each wound a hero suffers, the player must remove one wound token from his hero sheet and return it to the pile of unused tokens in the common play area, making change if necessary. When a hero removes the last wound token from his hero sheet, he has been killed (see “Monster and Hero Death,” page 16).

For each wound a monster suffers, the overlord player places a wound token from the pile of unused tokens next to the monster figure on the board. A monster figure is killed when the number of wound tokens it has received equal or exceeds its wound rating ,

Wounds are suffered when armour and other effects are applied to reduce Total Damage to actual damage. Due to poor writing this is not actually explicitly written as such anywhere (or at least not in the applicable section, but this is how it is worded in the example on page 11 of a Beastman hitting Jaes (apparently this is an earlier version of Jaes that only has a base armour of 1!)).

Example: A beastman inflicts 6 damage to Battlemage Jaes, who is wearing leather armor. Battlemage Jaes has a base armor on his hero sheet of 1, and leather armor gives him an additional +1 armor, for a total of 2 armor. Subtracting 2 from the total damage of 6, we see that Jaes suffers 4 wounds.

Note that the Beastman inflicts damage, but after armour is applied Jaes suffers Wounds. So Damage is what the attack inflicts, but the process of applying Armour converts left-over damage into wounds, which are what is 'received' by the recipient. So in answer to your question above, no, Heroes do not 'receive' Damage, they 'suffer' (receive) wounds.

At this point other effects that prevent or cancel wounds could also be applied (Shields cancel wounds rather than Damage, and so do some other effects, like Ghost armour IIRC). Then, for each wound (not prevented or cancelled) that Jaes suffered he must remove a wound token as per the previously quoted text. When he removes his last wound token he dies. Damage doesn't kill people, removing the last wound token kills people.

(If I could figure out how to use struck-through text then the last piece would read " Guns (struckthrough) swords (struckthrough) damage do(es)n't kill people, people (struck through) romans (struckthrough) removing the last wound token kill(s) people")

All this stuff is very simple, all done in a flash by the players and mostly it is irrelevant how you actually do or name these things, as long as you get the right end result. But when figuring out the exact timing of things it helps to go to the rulebook and follow exactly the terms, timings and steps of each action. My fellow players and I certainly don't say to each other "(OL)the Beastman has attacked and the attack does 5 damage. (H) I have chainmail and 2 armour so I will take 1 wound. I remove this wound token". We say (OL) "beastman hits you for 5, take 1" (H)"my grandmothers umbrella hurts more than that!<removes a token>"

Ok ok.. I know how damage versus wounds work..

I only hadn't placed it in the same context as things like knockback..

1. Hero receives damage (armor or not)

2. Knockback is 'activated' --> Hero lands somewhere

3. Wounds are calculated and dealt to the hero

4. Character death --> Divine retribution

As this is all happening in Step 6, I am not fully convinced that this is the order of things. But as long as an official answer stays out, this order seems likely enough for me.

It may be non of my busyness, but "damage before applaying armor" and "damge after applaying armor" (or whatever they are called) are just the names of two integer variables: The first is the name given to the number of damage points an attack is worth (irrespective of the target, and hence irrespective of the armor). The later is the name ginven to the number of wounds the targget actually takes, which normally is equal to the first minus the armor.

When it says "if there is any damage before applaying the armor" it doesn't mean that the target has already being damaged nor the opposite. It only means that a figure with null defence would have taken any damage at all. It has nothing to do with the timing, which is just not covered at all. This explains the example in the book. So since there is no official rule about this, you'll have to house rule it.

My point is that you take the damage from the target first, and then you move it. If you think about it, it would be the hero's dead body that would fly over the 3 squares. When does divine retribution happen? I don't know. I would let the oger die, but that's just my opinion. Now, if the hero stays alive after the attack, the knockback effect allow the OL to move the hero into a space where a crushing block card may be played. If he still survives, he is moved onto another space which still can contain a pit. If the hero dies because of the block or the pit, divine retribution does not trigger.

About the Dark Charm: 2 things may happen. If the charmed hero kills a hero with divine retribution, the monsters around the secon die, but not the charmed hero (who is a named figure). If the charmed hero suicide and he has divine retribution, then nothing happens, as the monsters around him are not his enemies at that point, and the other heroes have names.

Galvancito1 said:

Timing is covered. There is a sequence, a process which must be followed (in order or it doesn't work), to get from 'this figure attacks' to 'this figure dies/lives'. Part of that sequence is inflicting Damage. Knockback is applied immediately (see that some form of timing is implicit here, or immediately is irrelevant) after damage is inflicted. The step after inflicting Damage is applying Armour to that damage. Knockback happens before this. The additional part (before applying armour) is just there as a reminder (which is why it is bracketed) because some effects only work if there is excess Damage that gets through Armour and is converted to Wounds. Without this reminder careless players might assume Knockback only works if the attack gets through the armour.

The whole damage and wounds part is covered in the same combat step. Therefore, I agree with Galvancito1 that timing is not covered for this issue.

The before-armor and after-armor is just to determine whether an effect activates when hit, or when inflicting wounds. I don't think that first damage is applied and then wounds. A calculation is made, then wounds are taken and abilities go into effect.

Siebeltje said:

1. Ok, next time take your wounds before you apply damage.

There is a specific process and order to these things. Do any step out of turn and the process fails. If you don't like the term Timing use Sequence instead. If you don't do the math in sequence then the calculation will fail or be incorrect. Monster does X damage, Hero takes Z wounds (err, whats Z?), Armour Y is applied to damage X. You won't take the right number of wound tokens off unless you do the Z = X-Y thing before you apply Z because you won't know what the correct value for Z is!

The rules even uses the same terminology. Monsters inflict damage. Then armour is applied to that damage and heroes suffer wounds. See the example on page 11. See point 2 below.

2. Is that not ignoring the ' immediately ' part of the rule? Knockback specifically says after damage (not wounds, damage) is inflicted immediately move the figure. You yourself have said above a calculation is made , then wounds are taken. So even as you deny timing you declare sequencing. Immediately operates the same way in a sequence as it does in timing. It interrupts the sequence, is resolved, then the sequence resumes.

Abilities each have their own timing and the timing of them varies. Pierce must obviously be used some time before before wounds are taken as an example, Leech is definitely after wounds. Poison is at the same time as wounds are applied, Bash, Swarm and Breath before the dice are rolled, Blast before damage is allocated but after the dice are rolled (during the spending of surges). Daze, Frost and Bleed specifically say to put their tokens on after wounds have been applied. Stun and Web have no timing indicated but they cannot affect the current attack anyway. Just because nearly all of these effects are so easy to calculate or apply that we do it without thinking about the process/sequence/timing does not mean that the process/sequence/timing does not exist.

Ok, ok, let me say it again in a different way:

First, I (completly) agree with you about point one and most of the point two. There is a secuence.

If the target is valid (range, sorcery, breath, blast...)

{

X=Damadge as the dies say (affected by some skills as damadge+1, command, sorcery and the like);

Y=Armor (affected by shields, pierce, ironskin...);

Z=Wounds= X - Y (affected by some more wich I cannot remember now);

Some more effects like poison, or leach wich would depend on Z;

}

Now, when it comes to stun, web, bleed, knockback, and all others where the words "After inflicting at least 1 point of damadge (ignoring armor)", which normally do not require to add some extra effects to X, Y or Z, the rules do not especify if the effect applays immediatly after calculating X or immediatly after calculating Z. That was what I meant when I said timing is not covered there. All this effects focus on the board and on the tokens, not on the cuantites, so there is some ambiguity about the timimg, and that's why I said it had nothing to do with it. To be more exact if the condition is "if X>0", I don't have to understand that it comes immediatly after calculating X.

My point is that "there is at least 1 damadge point (ignoring armor)" is the same as "the target was hit" or "there is an impact" irrespective of how much Z is worth. So I would understand it as: "If the oger hits the hero, he moves it 3 spaces." The "immediatly" could mean that the oger is not allow to move before moving the hero.

We could be discussing this until the end of the world, but I don't think any of us is going to convince the others about what exactly was being implayed in the sentence. I don't want anyone to get angry with this, isn't it supposed to be a game? Well, there doesn't seem to be a world championship so why don't we house rule cases like this? Maybe, for this particular board (I've played it) it would be to easy for the heros to allow it. Do what you think is best when playing.

Oops, I almost forgot!

Joystick, the card was edited when the first expansion was released. My spanish copy of the card already has the change in the core game. As mentioned in the FAQ, the divine retribution only triggers if the "person bomb" is killed by an enemy figure. So if he is killed by traps or by his fellow heroes, no monster die.