While playing through the fourth quest in a recent game of JiTD one of our characters was "blessed enough" to get the divine retribution skill. Because of the low cost of death for that character (2 cp) the heroes (myself included) decided to wait for a particularly large mass of baddies to gather and have that hero unequip armor and fire ruthlessly into his back, killing any and all unnamed monsters in the area. We were able to pull this off in the final room and eradicate all but the final named boss. After the game was over we all wondered if what we had done was wrong... well we knew it was wrong, hehe but really we wondered if this was an allowed action. After searching through the rules section it's quoted as saying :

"The attacking player declares which space his figure is attacking. If the attacking figure is a hero, the player must also state which equipped weapon the hero is using."

Which suggest to me we can attack any "space" including the one our poor nuke was standing. Any information on this would be much appreciated.

Page 6 of the FAQ states that DR only triggers when the hero is killed as a result of an enemy attack. Suicide Bombers are not allowed in Descent.

Ah, thanks for helping. We figured it would be some overlooked rule, and it appears to be exactly that. That also means a character can't blow himself up with blast to cause the effect, so it's pretty well covered from all angles. It was fun while it lasted though.

The players have got Zyla (the new fairy character in TOI worth 1 CT) with Divine Retribution in our 2 ^nd RTL campaign which we’ve just started. They already have plans to use her as a Suicide Fairy though I’ll have to kill her for it to work J

Just kill her with traps, with no near-by monsters. Do this asoften as practicable.

The fact is the fairy is likely to die a lot anyway 8 points of health just doesn't go very far.

The idea is that with divine retribution gives more defence in that; 1) Hitting her with the Melee characters that have reach means you have to weigh up if that does kill her do you want to waste your powerful melee hitter (excluding named characters of course) 2) It's an awesome ability to have when trees are around. and 3) I think that sometimes it will save the characters life because in a cramped dungeon as many of the rtl ones are other more heavily armoured targets may become a more attractive target

Slev said:

Doesn't matter if there are any monsters around if the trap kills her. The FAQ ruling says that Divine Retribution only works if you are killed by an enemy figure . Extra sources of damage like bleed, burn, and (arguably) aura should also be safe.

The question involved was whether hero attacks can trigger it, so it's conceivable that bypassing it with alternative sources of damage was never the intent, but that's what the rule actually says.

Antistone said:

Agreed Divine Retribtution ins only triggered from a killing blow from an enemy. Bleed, Aura, traps etc dont activated it.

Hero's should never be killing their own play to trigger divine retribution, if i was said divine power i'd zap them for using my choosen one in such an evil way.

I think a low cost character with divine retribution is a fun option though esecially when they only cost 1.

It does raise the question though what happens if a character is killed via Dark Charm does that activate divine retribution. I think it's unlikely that a dark charm would be used on such a character since their so easy to kill anyway but i wonder if it activates it.

Actually, my comment was in response to Noodle. It's how to deal with it in RtL.

Thanks Slev – shouldn’t be too tough to get Trap Treachery as I’m using the Sorcerer King. Shame the Crushing Block/Spiked Pit combo’s out as she’s got Fly.

I have some questions about Divine Retribution and Dark Charm.

What happens if a dark charmed hero atack another hero?

According to the FAQ a hero can't kill another hero in order to trigger DR, but it's also said in the FAQ that sweep only affect enemy figures unless dark charm is played. So should we deduce that Dark Charm makes an hero look like an enemy for the other heroes? In such a case the monsters within 3 spaces of the hero with DR should die with him.

Does DR follow the explosion rules? or it doesn't need LOS like Astarra?

Finally, when a knockback attack targets a hero with DR, if the attack doesn't miss, the sweep effect triggers and the OL moves the hero. After that, if the hero dies the monster with knockback can save itself if it's far enough from the hero, right?

sorry about my english and

by3z!

I think DR will be triggered when killed by a charmed hero, but that is just my opinion.

The knockback rule is more clear. The hero dies on the spot he is, so you cannot knockback the hero to save your monster.. (although the knockback-crushing block - spiked pit combination can still do wonders)

Siebeltje said:

So a charmed hero is an enemy for the other heroes. I have always assumed Dark Charm only cause a hero to make an attack because a hero can attack the space of another hero at any time during his turn so i don't see the difference.

Siebeltje said:

I don't agree. According to the rules:

Knockback
After inflicting at least 1 damage (before applying the
effects of armor) to a figure with a Knockback attack,
the attacker may immediately move each affected target
figure up to three spaces away from its current location.

The knockback effects trigger before applying the armor, moreover it says immediately.

bomber said:

I see your point..However, it also says AFTER inflicting damage. If that damage kills it, then I think DR will go off before the hero is knocked back..

I've always been under the impression that things like Knockback and any effect that can be triggered through the use of surges occurs before damage is applied. Its part of the core rules I think. If you look at p10 of JitD rules, you'll see that spending surges, power enhancements and fatigue occurs before damage is applied. Inflicted in the quoted part should read as "the attack was not a miss".

Big Remy said:

That's what I was thinking right now. I have problems posting here, because I dont play Descent in English and I have to check both rules books to guarantee that I'm not misunderstanding some rules due a translation mistake.

That said, according to the step 6 of Attacking Sequence:

[...] This is the total damage dealt to the
figure in the target space. In order for this damage to
have any effect, it must first penetrate the
figure’s armor .

If the total damage don't have any effect until the armor have been brought into account, and the Knockback effect triggers before the armor is applied, I think the monster can move the hero before he "explodes".

But what is about the other questions i asked, does the divine retibution follow the blast rules?

Does a charmed hero becomes an enemy? if that is the case and target of the attack dies does the DR trigger?

If the Dark Charm doesn't make a hero to become an enemy, how can the sweep attack affect the other heroes as it's explained at the FAQ?

I agree that the Knockback applies first before DR would trigger.

DR follows Blast rules, given that it is equivalent to having Blast 3. Except for the fact that it just flat out kills all unnamed figures within 3 spaces, ignoring Undying.

Siebeltje said:

Damage doesn't kill heroes, removing the last wound token kills heroes.

Damage is not applied to heroes until after armour is applied to damage. Damage after armour is converted to loss of wound tokens, which may then be further negated before hero death (shields, Ghost armour, specials etc).

The rules are very clear on the sequencing.

In the 6. Inflict wounds step of an attack (basic rules page 10) there are actually several sub-steps. First you must determine total damage (term emboldened in the rules) which is from dice hearts, surge effects and other bonuses. At this stage, you have determined whether Knockback shall apply and it is immediately used (note that Knockback is applied "before applying the effects of armour... immediately" ). After this, armour is deducted from total damage to find ' actual damage ' (term used on page 11 but not emboldened). Characters then suffer one wound token loss for each point of actual damage (which can then be negated by items or specials). After this point characters die if they have no wound tokens left.

The hero will unequivocally be knockbacked before he dies and thus before DR can go off.

Completely agree.

Of course the example used in the rulebook on page 23 doesn't help preventing, since it says that the Ogre with Knockback moves Sir Valadir after dealing its damage.

I love FFG, but they need to hire a couple of serious rule lawyers to re-write the rulebooks.

As for the Dark Charm/Hero becomes an enemy figure thing, I don't recall if there was ever an official ruling given out on that. Last time I looked for it on the old forum, I got the impression that it was unresolved even though that Sweep example seems to indicate it that the DC'd Hero becomes an enemy figure.

Disagree.

The section in brackets refers only to the phrase directly before it, and has nothing to do with the timing of the knockback effect.

Knockback occurs after dealing damage - but it still occurs even if all damage was negated by armor. Thats all it says.

Except Knockback is a weapon effect, which should get applied before determining the number of wounds the target receives. Same thing for Stun, Frost, Burn, Web, Bleed, etc etc etc. Hence why you get those tokens even if the Hero/Monster doesn't get through the armor to do any damage. Poison is the only effect token or weapon effect (that I can think of) that is applied after you determine how many wounds the Hero/Monster receives.

Its part of Step 5 of the Attack Sequence. Once you actually deal the wounds out (Step 6), the attack is over and done with. If you do Knockback etc after you deal out the wounds, you are adding another resolution step to the attack.

Big Remy said:

Knockback cannot be activated by surges. Why should this fit in the "spending surgers, power enhancements and fatigue" step?

Besides this technical explanation, I also think the monster/hero dies on impact of the weapon, not after landing on the ground some 15 feet away..

Siebeltje said:

There is a weapon in one of the expansions that has the ability to gain Knockback through surges, hence why it falls under this category. As for the second part, thematically I completely agree with you. Of course I could also say that thematically the Hero died from the impact of flying back 3 spaces and slamming into the floor.

Wibble said:

Thats an interpretation (and a fair one), but even so, irrelevant. Knockback is applied immediately after damage is received - therefore before wound tokens are removed (and, incidentally, before armour is applied to reduce damage).

I repeat, damage doesn't kill heroes, removal of the last wound token kills heroes.

Corbon said:

so you are saying that wound tokens are removed sometime after damage is received?

How does a hero receive damage then? isn't receiving damage equal to removing wound tokens?