Has anyone else found Darth underwhelming? On paper I thought he’d be super amazing but after 4 games (all against rebels) I’m not finding him great.

The speed is a terminal issue of starters. Enemies just kite him for days, some missions, like supplies make it not so big a problem because darth can drive towards a nice close point and wave his laser sword around but missions like breakthrough are almost a write off depending on deployment. You can compensate for the speed with force powers like push (we’ll pull really) and Sabre throw but then your already expensive darth becomes stupidly expensive.

The price I think is the biggest issue. Playing against rebels I found that I was usually out deployed/activated simply because they had about 60ish extra points between darth and Luke and everything imp is more expensive anyway. So usually what would happen is that darth would advance to somewhere, Luke would go last and double move in, stab darth. Then in the next turn it’s son of sky walker time so I know to use implacable, if I lose the roll off Luke gets 3 chops at me before I get one back. If Darth had taken any sort of damage before now I’m probably dead. IF I win the roll off I’ll get one swing onto Luke before he gets 2 swings back on me so I’m probably dead and he’s probably half dead best case scenario. The only saving grace is that IF you win the roll off you can have double dodge (1 from force reflexes) help stay alive but that all rests on a big IF.

Which is why I think Luke is way better value for points. His basic speed and manoeuvrability means he doesn’t need Sabre throw and push (though you may still like them) meaning you can keep his cost down. Taking supression I’ve found was actually a bonus giving the hit cancel and it takes a lot of shots to properly supress you. Even his health isn’t s problem. On paper he’s two less than darth but with the surge conversion and the fact that darth loses a wound for implacable I’m not actually thinking that those two wounds count for anything.

I’m going to keep experimenting with Darth and I think I’ll probably adapt a more defensive play style with him (even though it seems counter intuitive) but I wonder what everyone else is finding?

What was the rest of your list?

With another announcement about to drop it's too early to tell, however this is something i've been saying for months............. he's really not that bad, but his skill floor for the points he sucks in a list is a lot higher than luke.

Is he really that underwhelming? I've been defending him vigorously for some time, pointing out to his strong sides, but people keep saying they don't like how he performs/looks on paper. For me (and I play rebels) Vader is the area-denial piece, and is one of the best when it comes to scenario - except the dreaded Breakthrough.

So when you see your opponent pushing for that objective just pick the appropriate setup (i.e. eliminate Major Offensive, if possible push for Long March, as it is easier for him to intercept enemy units). I just fail to see how can he not work well when played properly - even if he is awfully expensive with Saber Throw, Reflexes and Push.

My impression from fighting him 4 times as rebels is you need to dump some points into him. I think he needs saber throw and the auto refresh deflect one. That way he can spend his time double moving and hopefully not losing many wounds as he marches up. He will probably even kill a couple of things with his defensive surge.

Saber throw is pretty deadly especially against war walkers but also troops in the open. And it gives him something to do while he trudges along.

If he can march into the objectives the rebels only really have luke that can stop him.

By comparison luke with minimal upgrades is still really effective at everything you need him to do.

This is pretty common with ffg games, i think its done by design to an extent, you need costly leaders to start, otherwise it's hard to form a legal list without really breaking the bank. 2 core sets will get you started, at a minimum, but within the next 6months both factions will have at least 3 commander options a cheap, medium and expensive option. Then others will continue, other units and force cards (force jump, lightning, etc) may also enhance Vader's options as well

I’d say Vader’s immunity to suppression is by far and away his most underrated ability. Being able to keep all your troops at Range 1-3 from panicking is a pretty big deal. Aside from that...saber throw vs. airspeeder is a very sad thing. For the airspeeder.

17 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

I’d say Vader’s immunity to suppression is by far and away his most underrated ability. Being able to keep all your troops at Range 1-3 from panicking is a pretty big deal. Aside from that...saber throw vs. airspeeder is a very sad thing. For the airspeeder.

See I’d argue that Luke is just as good since you need to effectively put 7 supression tokens on a rebel unit to break them if they have Luke near by. Vader’s only real boost in this respect is that he’s less likely to run off!

saber throw doesn’t do much to the speeder unless you roll really well too. If you’re averaging 2 hits only one goes through, annoying but hardly terminal from such an expensive unit. He does cut ATs to pieces though if they aren’t in cover

5 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

What was the rest of your list?

Mostly trooper units and bikes. Trooper units had the impact 1 pew pew gun.

The bikes and troopers pers were all really good which is why darth was so disappointing by contrast.

Im going to try out the at next time but I struggle to write a balanced looking list with both.

33 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

33 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

I’d say Vader’s immunity to suppression is by far and away his most underrated ability. Being able to keep all your troops at Range 1-3 from panicking is a pretty big deal. Aside from that...saber throw vs. airspeeder is a very sad thing. For the airspeeder.

14 minutes ago, beefcake4000 said:

See I’d argue that Luke is just as good since you need to effectively put 7 supression tokens on a rebel unit to break them if they have Luke near by. Vader’s only real boost in this respect is that he’s less likely to run off!

saber throw doesn’t do much to the speeder unless you roll really well too. If you’re averaging 2 hits only one goes through, annoying but hardly terminal from such an expensive unit. He does cut ATs to pieces though if they aren’t in cover

I agree with beefcake4000 except isn't it with average rally roles you would need 9 suppression on a trooper to have them run from Luke.

Luke shouldn't be getting 3 attacks on you if he's already engaged you. Son of skywalker gives a free attack, on top of Lukes normal attack. He doesn't get a 3rd attack because he can only take one attack action.

I have found with Mastery of the Force that stapling force reflexes to him is the best way to go about.

Getting shot at? Send those bolts back the way they came.

About to engage luke? Hello free evade.

AT-RT about to take a range 4 pot shot with an anti-tank like weapon? Well it never hurts to be prepared.

When son of Skywalker is played it's going to be a bad day for Vader, and Implaccable is situational against it. You may be better off with ambush that round. Master of Evil. Unless you absolutely need Vader to go first that round. You get a free dodge token before anything even activates, and when you do activate whatever is in range 1-2, (Luke, since he's engaging you) will gain suppression tokens.

It also may be helpful to go for harsh weather conditions during setup, any suppression tokens inflicted won't be lifted so easily.

I would also harrass luke with either the speeder bikes or AT-ST (If you've got it.) Damage him a little so by the time Father/son duel to the death starts Vader already has an upper hand on health even when son of skywalker is played.

8 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Luke shouldn't be getting 3 attacks on you if he's already engaged you. Son of skywalker gives a free attack, on top of Lukes normal attack. He doesn't get a 3rd attack because he can only take one attack action.

I have found with Mastery of the Force that stapling force reflexes to him is the best way to go about.

Getting shot at? Send those bolts back the way they came.

About to engage luke? Hello free evade.

AT-RT about to take a range 4 pot shot with an anti-tank like weapon? Well it never hurts to be prepared.

When son of Skywalker is played it's going to be a bad day for Vader, and Implaccable is situational against it. You may be better off with ambush that round. Master of Evil. Unless you absolutely need Vader to go first that round. You get a free dodge token before anything even activates, and when you do activate whatever is in range 1-2, (Luke, since he's engaging you) will gain suppression tokens.

It also may be helpful to go for harsh weather conditions during setup, any suppression tokens inflicted won't be lifted so easily.

I would also harrass luke with either the speeder bikes or AT-ST (If you've got it.) Damage him a little so by the time Father/son duel to the death starts Vader already has an upper hand on health even when son of skywalker is played.

To clarify, Luke gets 3 because rebels usually have more deployments. So basically he moves in as the last activation of turn 2, attacks. Then attacks twice using SOS in the following turn. Harder to do if you have more activations than the rebels but that’s hard to achieve by itself!

I do like the idea of softening Luke up as well but he’s pretty easy to hide as a fast single figure so that’s easier said than done and every time I send bikes within range Luke just cuts the unit to pieces so that usually fails hard.

I guess the main point of my issue isn’t that Darth is useless. Just that I’m struggling to justify 235 points for him in a game where the equivalent points in troops would kite/slaughter him well enough and also be able to achieve far more in terms of battlefield objectives. He doesn’t hit hard enough to balance the tactical flexibility I expect to get from veers + another 130 points of whatever.

That and the fact that 160 point Luke seems at least as good in a 1-1 matchup just has me underwhelmed.

All the other imp units I’ve used have been great which probably makes it worse because it’s like I’ve got this pointless little boss dragging down the rest of the awesome.

Reckon I might just switching to rebels till veers hits proper

Don't try to use him to fight Luke, use him to wreck trooper squads that try to push for objectives. Just because he doesn't defeat Luke easily doesn't mean he is bad, use him for a different task.

Vader has been solid in my games with push/throw/reflexes. Blob up your troopers behind him, push into the objectives, and force your opponent to have to kill him if they want to win the game. With dodge and red dice he's pretty tanky, and I haven't had him die yet.

Vader has been hands down the superstar of my games so far.

Not sure how you can feel underwhelmed by him unless you are just walking into the middle of nothing and getting ranged 3 and 4'ed with no block tokens.

16 hours ago, beefcake4000 said:

That and the fact that 160 point Luke seems at least as good in a 1-1 matchup just has me underwhelmed.

Luke is considerably weaker at ranged combat than a saber through Vader, Luke is considerably worse at melee combat, luke is considerably worse defensively (both hitpoints and videos free block every turn from force reflexes and the free refresh). Vader is considerably better against suppression.... other than climbing terrain and movement speed Vader is hands down better than Luke. Relentless for example is just a straight up way better ability than Charge.

Yes if luke has perfect positioning and activation he can get the upper hand, good on the rebel player for setting that up.

So, funny thought: could you use bikes or an ATST to tactically displace Vader and make him move faster?

21 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:

So, funny thought: could you use bikes or an ATST to tactically displace Vader and make him move faster?

Yes, you can.

38 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:

So, funny thought: could you use bikes or an ATST to tactically displace Vader and make him move faster?

16 minutes ago, Shanturin said:

Yes, you can.

No, you can't.

Quote

RRG, Page 25, "Displacement"

3. Place Units: The player who did not move the vehicle takes all of the displaced minis (both friendly and enemy) and places them back on the battlefield.

Your opponent is the one who places him, so he's far more likely to wind up farther away.

3 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

No, you can't.

Your opponent is the one who places him, so he's far more likely to wind up farther away.

I stand corrected. Than again, I don't thing Vader needs such a "push".

5 hours ago, Icelom said:

Luke is considerably weaker at ranged combat than a saber through Vader, Luke is considerably worse at melee combat, luke is considerably worse defensively (both hitpoints and videos free block every turn from force reflexes and the free refresh). Vader is considerably better against suppression.... other than climbing terrain and movement speed Vader is hands down better than Luke. Relentless for example is just a straight up way better ability than Charge.

Yes if luke has perfect positioning and activation he can get the upper hand, good on the rebel player for setting that up.

I think the central point of our disagreement comes from FFG's valuing of movement speed, not to mention that the 40pts base difference gives the rebels that extra activation so it's not even a skill factor in setting up last first, it's the massive advantage that comes from the base costs. That said, if he's working for you great stuff, I'll be hanging out for Veers.

Veers at 80 is awesome. Thrawn after that at 120ish range is going to push Vader away until they release more Force Fix cards for him like Force Leap and Force Lightning and Force Fries, etc.

47 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

Veers at 80 is awesome. Thrawn after that at 120ish range is going to push Vader away until they release more Force Fix cards for him like Force Leap and Force Lightning and Force Fries, etc.

Thrawn?

I think Vader is great, having faced him once and played with him once. Two speed 1 moves is the same as one speed 3 move, so he can get places and then free attack, including saber throw. I also like either the auto-dodge or force choke card. Force choke can just straight up murder a Z-6 trooper for free, or auto damage an injured Luke. I think he does take some thinking, but I think these two starter generals are the best that FFG has done yet in terms of viability, theme, and cost.

6 minutes ago, Caldias said:

I think Vader is great, having faced him once and played with him once. Two speed 1 moves is the same as one speed 3 move, so he can get places and then free attack, including saber throw. I also like either the auto-dodge or force choke card. Force choke can just straight up murder a Z-6 trooper for Free, or auto damage an injured Luke. I think he does take some thinking, but I think these two starter generals are the best that FFG has done yet in terms of viability, theme, and cost.

Force choke states the mini can't be a commander.