38 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

Also have to add this in, the Ghost/Fenn/Ahsoka isn't what makes the TIE Interceptors and A-wing's terrible these days. No that's something far more darker called powecreep and bombs.

My point wasn't that the Interceptor/A-Wing are bad. My point is that those ships are dedicated arc-dodgers, that is their whole identity, yet the Ghost is better at arc-dodging and is also a bulky tanky turret.

2 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

Try running the X-Wing probability calculator.

One harpoon missile without either TL or Focus (or GC because LRS; tokens blocked by Fenn) vs Sensor Jammer = 1.15 hits. Evade token cancels that.

One Harpoon with TL but no Focus (stripped by Fenn) = 2 damage.

One Harpoon with both TL & Focus = 3.75 (because SJ does nothing this time.

Total from a perfect attack without anything being at the wrong range or out of arc = 5.75 not too shabby.

Your ships take 4 damage back. Next round you do no damage: all ships must reload; 2 need new TLs; and you still have no focus tokens. The one that kept it's TL, gets locked down by Fenn again and it's measly 1 expected damage is evaded by the evade token. And you take 4 damage again, killing a Gunboat or almost killing a Kimogila - if Fenn's shot didn't do anything either round.

Round 3, you only have 2 ships shooting, so Fenn shuts them both down, so you do 2 damage to the Ghost.

In the end, you have to kill Fenn first or you lose. Now, you can afford 3 Nu gunboats plus QD - but good luck getting every ship in the perfect position every round!

Thanks for the detailed breakdown, I'm still not sure why you would run LRS over Guidance chips these days especially on Rhos. Not being able to TL at range 1-2 is brutal. With GC the way I run it you up your damage significantly, not to mention you missed harpoon condition damage. I was literally just rolling actual dice a couple times here and averaging it.

1 minute ago, nexttwelveexits said:

My point wasn't that the Interceptor/A-Wing are bad. My point is that those ships are dedicated arc-dodgers, that is their whole identity, yet the Ghost is better at arc-dodging and is also a bulky tanky turret.

Yeah but that's true of a lot of ships these days, Nym is supposed to be a bomber and can out-arc dodge those ships, and easily dispatch them. Same for Decimator Isard combo. I just didn't think it was a great comparison to say these terrible out-dated arc-dodgers aren't as good as the latest and greatest powercreep. But I get where you are coming from and decent point.

18 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

Not saying it's not tough man, just that the decimator has more in common than you think with it. Isard is giving it a FREE evade action, Ghost has to use its own or get coordinate. The systems slot is true, but having an EPT slot is actually better in my opinion, Lone Wolf, PTL or EH are nothing to scoff at especially when you get to use them post everyone else moving and with complete knowledge. And being able to hand out Kylo Crits is nothing to scoff at either for the big beautiful Imperial girl. Imperial crew are generally much better as well.

I'm also not sure where you're getting your math on the Torpedos+ missiles scenerio. Let's say triple Rho's with Cruise or harpoon missiles. One can't modify with focus or his target lock. Still gets up to 4 hits but let's call it 2 (even though I just rolled 3 and a focus with sample dice, because maybe sensor jammer is on), and assigns harpooned. Next Rho puts out let's say 3 hits with Kanan cancelling 1 and can spend his focus and TL to avoid jammer. Assigns harpooned as well. Last one same thing and deals another conservative 3 hits, and maybe even triggers harpooned.

That's 2 + 3 + 3 + Harpooned x2 for a conservative total of 10 damage and the Ghost is already half dead. Even if you aren't rolling great it would be hard not to have done at least 8 damage in one round.

Heck if you really want to stick it to the Ghost run Rhos with Harpooned for 2-3 and Cluster missiles for 1-2. With clusters you can get invite Kanan into range 1-2 and deal a max damage of 15-18 damage in one round.

And the new Glia monster is another solid Ghost hunter.

You're not wrong that a lot of ships/shots/ordinance coming at it is a good counter, but that's not really around these days for reasons that run relatively deep from a game design perspective. Quickdraw and 3 Nus is probably the closest thing but get's hard countered by Poe. We can't bring swarms back into relevance by force of will.

The Decimator doesn't make sense to me as a comparable, the jousting ability isn't in the same ballpark. A better comparison to my eyes is old Fat Han w/ Predator, Luke, C-3PO, title, Engine, but with some new tricks like double tap TLT and the strongest support ship in the game to date.

Just now, YourHucklebrry said:

You're not wrong that a lot of ships/shots/ordinance coming at it is a good counter, but that's not really around these days for reasons that run relatively deep from a game design perspective. Quickdraw and 3 Nus is probably the closest thing but get's hard countered by Poe. We can't bring swarms back into relevance by force of will.

The Decimator doesn't make sense to me as a comparable, the jousting ability isn't in the same ballpark. A better comparison to my eyes is old Fat Han w/ Predator, Luke, C-3PO, title, Engine, but with some new tricks like double tap TLT and the strongest support ship in the game to date.

Truth there, I miss the TIE swarm and still love running Vader/Quickdraw with Swarm Leader and Countdown/Howlrunner and Academy Pilots as one of my favorite lists. But that's just me. In my home games with my wife I fly almost exclusively Ghost + something as it's the only rebel ship I enjoy thematically and she only likes to play Empire (don't we all? They are so much cooler, but alas someone has to play the bad guys [Rebels] Hahaha

And Fat Han or Rey with Fenn wingman is definitely a thing too. But seriously you have to try flying the Decimator with Isard and EH/EI or PTL/EU, it's amazing seeing an arc-dodging Deci.

So in conclusion, we need to bring back the swarm, heck yes. -2 Tie Fighter title, and it's balanced by you having to fly 10 ships and not mentally die by your third game hahahaha.

9 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

Thanks for the detailed breakdown, I'm still not sure why you would run LRS over Guidance chips these days especially on Rhos. Not being able to TL at range 1-2 is brutal. With GC the way I run it you up your damage significantly, not to mention you missed harpoon condition damage. I was literally just rolling actual dice a couple times here and averaging it.

LRS because otherwise you are shooting without any focus tokens (which drops your expected damage to 2 with the 3rd ship) or taking damage without being able to shoot back with the Harpoons.

I did miss out the Harpooned effect: if you rolled a crit on the 3rd attack, you had a 50% ish chance of triggering it. You only have one chance because the first, unmodified, attack didn't hit at all.

42 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

I'm also not sure where you're getting your math on the Torpedos+ missiles scenerio. Let's say triple Rho's with Cruise or harpoon missiles. One can't modify with focus or his target lock. Still gets up to 4 hits but let's call it 2 (even though I just rolled 3 and a focus with sample dice, because maybe sensor jammer is on), and assigns harpooned. Next Rho puts out let's say 3 hits with Kanan cancelling 1 and can spend his focus and TL to avoid jammer. Assigns harpooned as well. Last one same thing and deals another conservative 3 hits, and maybe even triggers harpooned.

3

Your math is bad. If all three gunboats are in a place where the ghost can't possibly arc dodge/range control any of them, here's the breakdown:

Boat 1- Fenn ability is used on it. If it decides to shoot anyways it has 1.153 expected total hits with 4 unmodified dice into sensor jammer.

Boat 2- Hotcop from Fenn stripped the focus. If it shoots the harpoon it has 2.153 expected hits from 4 dice and a target lock into sensor jammer. With 56.42% chance of a crit it triggers the previous harpoon more than half the time.

Boat 3- Full mod boat is happy, gets 3.75 expected hits due to the TL and focus. This ship also has a 49.32% chance of having 1 crit so triggering the past 2 harpoons.

The Ghost has an evade token, because if it's somehow in a position where it can't boost to eliminate one of these harpoons it absolutely evades for its action with Maul and Ezra crew. So one of those missiles coming at it deals 1 less damage, almost certainly the 3rd unless the evade would cause the ghost to dodge the first fired harpoon entirely.

Total expected damage if 3 harpoons are all taken in the same round and a crit is dealt by the last harpoon to trigger the first two: 6.056 plus 2 facedown damage cards. If the evade is used to dodge the first harpoon, 6.056 plus 1 facedown damage card. If the first gunboat doesn't fire the harpoon unmodded and uses the 2 dice primary unmodded instead the damage drops to 5.294 plus 1 facedown damage card.

1 hour ago, GILLIES291 said:

Respectfully disagree with some of this brother. It's very easy to decimator/Isard combo outmaneuver the Ghost/Fenn. You literally move after it gets its free move.

Can I ask how you are doing this with the Decimator/Isard? She gives an evade token when you have no shields and a damage. Evade tokens aren´ t going to help much vs TLT with AG 0, when the ghost shoud be boosting or whatever to get the R2 on you. Their expected 3.5 ish hits will win the fight compared to your 3Red attack. Unless you are repositioning after Fenn´ s coordinate action. Which bring me back to "How are you doing that on a Decimator?"

4 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

Your math is bad. If all three gunboats are in a place where the ghost can't possibly arc dodge any of them, here's the breakdown:

Boat 1- Fenn ability is used on it. If it decides to shoot anyways it has 1.153 expected total hits with 4 unmodified dice into sensor jammer.

Boat 2- Hotcop from Fenn stripped the focus. If it shoots the harpoon it has 2.153 expected hits from 4 dice and a target lock into sensor jammer. With 56.42% chance of a crit it triggers the previous harpoon more than half the time.

Boat 3- Full mod boat is happy, gets 3.75 expected hits due to the TL and focus. This ship also has a 49.32% chance of having 1 crit so triggering the past 2 harpoons.

The Ghost has an evade token, because if it's somehow in a position where it can't boost to eliminate one of these harpoons it absolutely evades for its action with Maul and Ezra crew. So one of those missiles coming at it deals 1 less damage, almost certainly the 3rd unless the evade would cause the ghost to dodge the first fired harpoon entirely.

Total expected damage if 3 harpoons are all taken in the same round and a crit is dealt by the last harpoon to trigger the first two: 6.056 plus 2 face down damage cards.

Which is half the health of the Ghost and you are already in a great spot for the rest of the fight.

18 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

So in conclusion, we need to bring back the swarm, heck yes. -2 Tie Fighter title, and it's balanced by you having to fly 10 ships and not mentally die by your third game hahahaha.

And they still all get exploded by three harpoon missiles.

1 minute ago, Larky Bobble said:

Can I ask how you are doing this with the Decimator/Isard? She gives an evade token when you have no shields and a damage. Evade tokens aren´ t going to help much vs TLT with AG 0 and the ghost shoud be boosting or whatever to get the R2 on you. Their expected 4 hits will win the fight compared to your 3Red attack. Unless you are repositioning after Fenn´ s coordinate action. Which bring me back to "How are you doing that on a Decimator?"

Sure man, so basically it works like this, Isard allows you not to take a free evade token like you said, but a free Evade ACTION, so push the limit + Engine upgrades allows you to then PTL off of the evade and boost to where you want to be. Another fun option is Expert Handling and Experimental Interface to allow your ship to barrel roll after the evade action. But it means you have to run an inspiring recruit on board to mitigate the extra stress you are generating.

Thanks!

I hadn´t realised that was possible..

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

And they still all get exploded by three harpoon missiles.

Ah but th Ghost or Fenn doesn't have missiles. Let alone Moby **** harpoons hahaha.

Its a Rock Paper Scissors kind of thing where one counters the next and so on. More ships counter fewer less agility ships, and those tanky ships counter the normal 2 ships lists that almost everyone runs these days which I think is a good thing.

1 minute ago, Larky Bobble said:

Thanks!

I hadn´t realised that was possible..

No problem and it's an amazing combo. My wife does it with isard + Engine Upgrades and Palpatine to boost up whatever Ace she is flying these days. Deadly build and the Decimator is way underrated and underestimated. She has actually boosted/barrel rolled into my range one bubble of the Ghost literally dozens of times and blasted me with 4 dice while I can't do a thing. It's a beautiful thing haha.

Just now, GILLIES291 said:

Which is half the health of the Ghost and you are already in a great spot for the rest of the fight.

No, you aren't in a great spot because you've spent your entire alpha strike to, if you had a perfect set up, barely take out the Ghost's shields. This is the ideal engagement where all your TL/focus PS 2 ships were able to range control and arc control such that the Ghost has to take all of your hits, and the ghost is at half or most likely 1 less than half because it'll flat out dodge the first harpoon and only have 1 condition to be triggered. The ideal attack with your entire alpha and the ghost is maybe at half health but most likely not, Fenn is untouched, and one of your boats is dead next turn while another should die before it can reload, re-lock, and fire again.

11 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

Sure man, so basically it works like this, Isard allows you not to take a free evade token like you said, but a free Evade ACTION, so push the limit + Engine upgrades allows you to then PTL off of the evade and boost to where you want to be. Another fun option is Expert Handling and Experimental Interface to allow your ship to barrel roll after the evade action. But it means you have to run an inspiring recruit on board to mitigate the extra stress you are generating.

But you're relying then on the Deci's 5 greens, AND not taking a massive smash of damage in the round where you get your first card, neither of which are things to be relied on. There's a reason PTL Isard never took off.

The problem is not the ghost or miranda or the scurrg, its TLT.

Reduce its dmg output by a little bit and negate the interaction with harpooned and it is solved. The meta right now is extremely diverse, it is just that people think that only the ghost and miranda works and that it is due to their abilities or every other upgrade but TLT, which is incorrect.

Make criticals be cancelled before comparing dice and it makes squadrons with miranda, ghost or scrurrg with TLT drop a few % winrate and allow even more diversity. But even without any intervention the meta is very diverse and constantly evolving. When people saw lothal fenn they cried for nerfs, fast forward a couple of months and it is a tier 1.5 squadron. And a first order squad won the biggest x-wing event ever. LOL.

Is Glitter stim alpha strikes the way to get around all the Fenn shenanigans? There arent any tokens to stop, either with FCS, LRS or getting Fenn in rng 3 for a good old TL action and you should be OK. Glitter stim up the turn you can fire and 2 missiles/torpedoes and Fenn should be dead. Then it's clean up aisle Lothal on a lower PS large ship, which does have good offensive output but not much defense to speak of.
I could be waaaay over simplifying things, but with stress shutting down expertise, fenn stopping spending tokens for mods, just thought good old stim abuse could be an answer.

2 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Is Glitter stim alpha strikes the way to get around all the Fenn shenanigans? There arent any tokens to stop, either with FCS, LRS or getting Fenn in rng 3 for a good old TL action and you should be OK. Glitter stim up the turn you can fire and 2 missiles/torpedoes and Fenn should be dead. Then it's clean up aisle Lothal on a lower PS large ship, which does have good offensive output but not much defense to speak of.
I could be waaaay over simplifying things, but with stress shutting down expertise, fenn stopping spending tokens for mods, just thought good old stim abuse could be an answer.

Just killing Fenn in general is. He's rarely going to have more than one token and his ability in defence (assuming the Ghost isn't Kanan, which is not the most common build), and he's 5/2 without (much) repositioning. He's easy enough to kill if you can catch him in arc, and killing a non-coordinated Ghost without HotShot and Fenn's ability protecting it is a LOT easier.

I played a Ghost/Fenn list and just focused down Fenn and was able to win.

I think though it was also a bit of bad flying for Ghost after. Too much concentration on keeping in TLT range of all my ships in place of a willingness to take chances on maneuvers that would allow Ghost to put four dice on one of my ships.

Maul/Ezra/Phantom/TLT Ghost is pretty mean but killing Fenn takes the real nastiness away. I was also able to stress Ghost and take some of the teeth out of Maul.