I have noticed that A LOT of tournaments have both or all three but almost all have some form of Fenn and The Ghost. What are it's major strengths and why is it still top dog. I know that Kanan built right with Fenn can mitigate damage but i am looking for just a discussion on how to beat this and how overall we can have more ships in the meta. Or is this topic a dead horse i keep kicking.

you're not going to have more ships in the meta until the list is looked at by FFG

it's an arc-dodging turret that can joust due to its ridiculous damage output given volume of dice and action-independent modifiers helped along by basically Biggs 2.0

On 3/31/2018 at 8:06 AM, ficklegreendice said:

it's an arc-dodging turret

Mostly correct but there's a key point to be made here:

It can arc dodge, if it wants to.

If it's only receiving one or two attacks, then between sensor jammer (assuming you made use of free token stripping from Fenn's hot copilot, and/or Fenn's ability to shut off tokens) and the Ghost's evade token, you often wind up asking the question, "why bother?"

The Ghost was designed to tank attacks with its high health pool, not to mitigate them entirely. Now it's got the best of both worlds, plus the ability to boost away at PS11 if the situation really calls for it. And that's just its defensive merit. As you rightly point out, the Ghost TLT damage output is ridiculous (but that's always been a symptom of a problem; TLT was designed around the incorrect assumption that 2 damage in a round from a turret is on par with a standard 3 die attack).

In a balanced meta, tankiness is counterbalanced by the tank suffering from lower damage output and being wittled down each round by withering fire.

TLT/title or 4 red primaries provides damage output that is not low. SJ + evade action + Fenn stuff provide enough damage mitigation that enemy attacks cannot keep up with that damage output.

It is not unbeatable at all times, but its parts function well enough together that it can work for a newer player and is deadly in the hands of an experienced player.

Still don't see what the issue with Fenn is, I've been boosting at the start of the combat phase with Ahsoka for quasi skill 12 for a year before Fenn. How is he different?

Just now, GILLIES291 said:

Still don't see what the issue with Fenn is, I've been boosting at the start of the combat phase with Ahsoka for quasi skill 12 for a year before Fenn. How is he different?

Because on top of that boost, he can seriously compromise the few shots you have left between hotshot and his pilot ability.

Ahsoka was range 1 only and required her to have a focus token. Fenn is range 1-2 with no such requirement, and has an amazing ability in addition.

TIE Silencers with Threat-Tracker, Decimators with Ysanne Isard and then expert handling/experimental interface or push the limit/engine upgrades are another great way to outmaneuver the slippery ghost.

The last and most obvious way my wife has been shooting down my Ghost for years is flying into the range 1 bubble and blocking any efforts to boost past, shooting down Ahsoka (or in this case Fenn) to make the Ghost easier to lock down. Or finally just hammering it with either stress or missiles and torpedoes. 0 agility doesn't carry you very far.

I hear you guys but that's not what I've been hearing, people complain that it's an arc dodger at ps11, it's been capable of that for a long time with Ahsoka without making a major competitive splash. So clearly it's not a Ghost issue it's a Fenn or Phantom 2 issue people have in general.

8 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

TIE Silencers with Threat-Tracker, Decimators with Ysanne Isard and then expert handling/experimental interface or push the limit/engine upgrades are another great way to outmaneuver the slippery ghost.

The last and most obvious way my wife has been shooting down my Ghost for years is flying into the range 1 bubble and blocking any efforts to boost past, shooting down Ahsoka (or in this case Fenn) to make the Ghost easier to lock down. Or finally just hammering it with either stress or missiles and torpedoes. 0 agility doesn't carry you very far.

All of which is easier said than done

Fact is the burden of out playing the opponent is weighted HEAVILY on the one not flying the vcx Fenn. That list is so heavily favored in the majority of engagement scenarios to the point which it can out joust several lists despite being more manueverable and having a super powered turret

You're right in that Fenn is a large problem (he's the new, vastly superior Biggs) but it's also the advent of Maul both giving action independent modifiers and making stress a complete non-issue

But Maul isn't so grossly overpowered that he's elevating every list he's in, the ghost/phantom can uniquely abuse him + extra given the sheer volume of attacks

Relative to most lists, the ghost just doesn't give a ****. It's stuffed with action independent modifiers, tons of dice, ps 11 repositioning, stress relief and defensive capabilities that make it far more forgiving than it has any right to be given how strong it is

But seriously though the Decimator is equally capable of PS12 out-maneuvering without having to rely on a weaker support ship to grant it the ability. Has an actual 360 arc with no blind spots, able to take an extra crew member than the Ghost, and able to take an EPT upgrade.

One of my wife's favorite lists is running the aforementioned Isard with PTL/EU or EH/EI. Easily out-maneuvers any ace at the start of combat.

Everything has a counter and the counter to bulky ships like the Ghost/Decimator is to hang back and hammer them with torpedoes/missiles. I've lost the Ghost many times in a single round of focused fire from alpha strikes.

The problem isn't the arc dodging. The problem is that it is good at everything and bad at nothing. It's the arc-dodging on top of everything else that is super frustrating.

With the PS11 Coordinate, it becomes a better arc-dodger than the likes of the A-wing or TIE Interceptor, whose entire identity is built around arc-dodging. It's also one of the tankiest ships in the game, it has strong, consistent damage output that most ships struggle to match, and it's one of the two best points fortresses in existence.

It's a top three ship in almost every relevant category of performance. The arc-dodging is only a problem because it can already do everything. If you took away the PS11 Coordinate, it would still be a top-tier, hyper-efficient build.

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

All of which is easier said than done

Fact is the burden of out playing the opponent is weighted HEAVILY on the one not flying the vcx Fenn. That list is so heavily favored in the majority of engagement scenarios to the point which it can out joust several lists despite being more manueverable and having a super powered turret

You're right in that Fenn is a large problem (he's the new, vastly superior Biggs) but it's also the advent of Maul both giving action independent modifiers and making stress a complete non-issue

But Maul isn't so grossly overpowered that he's elevating every list he's in, the ghost/phantom can uniquely abuse him + extra given the sheer volume of attacks

Respectfully disagree with some of this brother. It's very easy to decimator/Isard combo outmaneuver the Ghost/Fenn. You literally move after it gets its free move.

And for torpedoes/missiles, as long as you're alpha strike is flying in a decent spread out formation the Ghost can't run from all of it. Which with the new crazy powerful cheap Gunboats it's easy to keep a decent spread. Then there are the higher PS11 Imperials alphas. I've also had my Ghost ripped apart by QuickDraw a ridiculous amount of times. But maybe that's just me.

I will concede that perhaps Fenn's ability is to strong but that's a different issue than the Ghost being able to out-maneuver. And likewise for Maul if that's an issue people have been encountering. I actually prefer to use M9-G8 locked on the Ghost to mod its shots. Or accuracy corrector and TLT for pretty consistent damage.

With Fat Han lists having been a thing for a long time, high skill out-maneuvering large tanky ships are not new. And Rey, any decimator or especially Dengar is a generally a far better ship to fill tha role.

But hey wonderful free world filled with different opinions and I get that people don't like certain things. I personally find bombs to powerful so don't use them and don't really like Kylo Ren's powerful ability to shut you down with crits. Oh and I hate jumpasters too, to this day still the most broken ship ever produced even with nerf 7.

13 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

The problem isn't the arc dodging. The problem is that it is good at everything and bad at nothing. It's the arc-dodging on top of everything else that is super frustrating.

With the PS11 Coordinate, it becomes a better arc-dodger than the likes of the A-wing or TIE Interceptor, whose entire identity is built around arc-dodging. It's also one of the tankiest ships in the game, it has strong, consistent damage output that most ships struggle to match, and it's one of the two best points fortresses in existence.

It's a top three ship in almost every relevant category of performance. The arc-dodging is only a problem because it can already do everything. If you took away the PS11 Coordinate, it would still be a top-tier, hyper-efficient build.

So should we take away Ahsoka's PS12 free action too then?

And the Ghost's weaknesses are:

-blind spots

-gets shut down by stress (especially Kanan)

-easy to block large bases

-requires closer formation flying in the day and age of Moby **** Harpooning.

-no access to EPTs

-extremely point heavy, half a Ghost is worth half points, half a Nym/Miranda/QuickDraw/Kylo is worth...

-and the most glaring one of all, 0 agility. Which means no C-3PO Fat Han business, gets shredded by swarms and ordinance, and is really easy to Kylo Crew/ability crit

It's a tough ship for sure, but definitely not the strongest build out there by any stretch in my opinion.

Also have to add this in, the Ghost/Fenn/Ahsoka isn't what makes the TIE Interceptors and A-wing's terrible these days. No that's something far more darker called powecreep and bombs.

Really we can't say Moby **** FFG auto-sensor? It's literally a literary classic. People these days ruin everything hahaha.

Decimators get no evade action, no sensor jammer, can’t shoot TLT twice, doesn’t have a 4 dice primary, have a more limited dial, and don’t preserve MOV as well. Is it really hard to see why the ghost with Fenn Combo is tough?

Also, it’s all well and good to try and torpedo/missile a ghost, but that’s where the combo with Fenn comes in. If you get 3 harpoon carriers all in range on the same turn and the ghost can’t boost into R1 of any of them Fenn’s ability plus sensor jammer and hotshot copilot means one of them is firing with no TL or focus (expected hits after sensor jammer on 4 dice is 1), one has a TL but no focus (2 hits after sensor jammer) and one would get full mods (pretty much 4 hits). With the evade token the ghost won’t be into hull yet from all 3 missiles. That’s why Fenn/Ghost is a strong list, in addition to the fact that most likely coordinate means it flat out dodges/range controls a missile carrier with its PS 11 boost and it has various fully passively modded attack options to take missile carriers out while avoiding arcs and running away while they try to reload or re-establish locks. It’s not an impossible task to beat Ghost/Fenn or any list, but it’s not a trivial one.

You know, thinking about Fenn vcx I remember my games against Kanan Biggs

I remember the games being tense with them against my x7s plus backdraft, how I had to engage carefully to keep from eating TLTs without being able to shoot back and how my opponent, despite Kanan + Biggs synergy, wouldn't dare joust even post-erratas x7s because that was a dumb idea

Same thing with Rey or Dengar (dengar especially being HEAVILY nerfed) whenever I outplayed these more manueverable, higher ps ships I was generally rewarded by being able to do more damage than them

But this new Fenn vcx can be pretty reasonably expected to kill an x7 a turn since the target will only have it's dinky evade after fenn's through. These guys can joust me and come out ahead, all the while remaining more manueverable and very defensive. They pack more punch than even Rey + a thing as the ghost has a better offense than Rey + Finn and has a TLT to outpace 3 die primaries without even considering fenn's hotshot

Nothing is impossible to win against, but dear lord can that list pull through all but the worst case scenarios

It's almost dengaroo levels of silly, but even that list couldn't double tap without arc + retaliatory shot and generally fell apart after its crucial support bit the dust

First thing they need to do, an easy change to make in all honesty, is to make Maul once per round. The end of round TLT having no mods would immediately impact the list and its competitiveness although long term a point limit on the eor turret shot would really help.

Ahsoka is nowhere near as bad as Fenn for the record:

- she doesn't shoot. So no damage, no hotshot, likely only a single bomb and/or EMP.

- she is trivially killed by ps9+.

- her ability is r1 only.

- she doesn't have a meaningful pilot ability. Fenn can coord AND use his abity, ahsoka can only coord.

And still Herahsoka was a frustrating combo for a good while after yavin last year. So doubling down on it was not exactly the best choice.

Fenn should have been no higher than ps7, had no ept, or preferably, both.

6 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

So should we take away Ahsoka's PS12 free action too then?

And the Ghost's weaknesses are:

-blind spots (it has none until Fenn dies)

-gets shut down by stress (especially Kanan) (stress basically gives it accuracy corrector with Ezra crew. But at least it cant boost)

-easy to block large bases (this large base flies away from you, not at you, so it can boost at ps11 out of range of all but maybe one ship)

-requires closer formation flying in the day and age of Moby **** Harpooning. (no, it does not, coordiante is range 1-2, Fenn works at range 1-3 in his ps11 arc)

-no access to EPTs (THANK THE LORD!)

-extremely point heavy, half a Ghost is worth half points, half a Nym/Miranda/QuickDraw/Kylo is worth... (not really, you dont get points for the shuttle, so its only 55pts - less than a kitted out RAC)

-and the most glaring one of all, 0 agility. Which means no C-3PO Fat Han business, gets shredded by swarms and ordinance, and is really easy to Kylo Crew/ability crit (sensor jammer + evade token shuts down one ships attack. Fenn's ability, and now with stressbot shuts down another ship. You are basically flinging naked dice at a 16hp sensor jammer ship)

It's a tough ship for sure, but definitely not the strongest build out there by any stretch in my opinion. (you need to play against it)

It's not the list is impossible to beat, or is even more troublesome than Paratanni was. It's the fact that in tournaments you need to build a list to beat this AND everything else. And that is the problem. Adding Expertise to everything to counter fenn, just screws you versus a stress ezra/low/miranda battle for instance. Meanwhile this Ghost/Fenn list is good against everything.

Ghost/Fenn typical build is:

Lothal Rebel with Ezra, Maul, TLT, Sensor Jammer, Engine Upgrade. Zeb in the Attack shuttle.

Fenn Rau with VI, Hot-shot Co-pilot, R3A2.

Ghost takes an evade action; Fenn can co-ordinate a boost at PS11. This means that it can arc-dodge unless you block it, but mostly it means that any ship you put into its range one side bubble of safety is no longer safe.

Take your typical 2 ship list against it: Fenn can either use R3A2 to stress one ship (eg if it has Expertise) and remove a focus token, or just strip a focus and use his pilot ability to shut down any tokens used to modify dice.

This means that your typical 3 dice shot at the Ghost which consists of hit, focus, blank becomes focus, focus, blank and you do no damage. If you did get 2 hits, the evade token blocks that extra damage. The second ship might get one or two hits through. Meanwhile, Fenn does pretty much no damage, but the Ghost does 4 - even against high agility ships with an evade token, which means you lose the damage race.

It is beatable:

1) kill Fenn first, whilst avoiding taking too much damage is a good plan but dependant on you being a better player or bringing a list that can outmanouevre both ships.

2) bring a list that is designed to kill the ghost - but still needs to be capable of beating everything else around. Eg 5 Cartel Marauders wrecks any ghost in about 3 rounds of shooting, but loses to a lot of other lists. Quad wookiees should win too, although I haven't tried them myself, and do well. Yorr/QD/Inq seems to be winning in the UK now, so must be able to beat it. Double Lothal Rebel might also work.

Meanwhile, a lot of people are whinging about it. It's no worse, in my opinion, than Paratanni, or Dengaroo, or Telgar, or ... etc, were. People whinged about them too, and got nerfs. I'm happy about that, because I was fed up with facing so many Jumpmasters! Currently, the Ghost is not winning big events because it can be out-played. But it's boring to lose to.

12 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

Decimators get no evade action, no sensor hammer, can’t shoot TLT twice, doesn’t have a 4 dice primary, have a more limited dial, and don’t preserve MOV as well. Is it really hard to see why the ghost with Fenn Combo is tough?

Also, it’s all well and good to try and torpedo/missile a ghost, but that’s where the combo with Fenn comes in. If you get 3 harpoon carriers all in range on the same turn and the ghost can’t boost into R1 of any of them Fenn’s ability plus sensor jammer and hotshot copilot means one of them is firing with no TL or focus (expected hits after sensor jammer on 4 dice is 1), one has a TL but no focus (2 hits after sensor jammer) and one would get full mods (pretty much 4 hits). With the evade token the ghost won’t be into hull yet from all 3 missiles. That’s why Fenn/Ghost is a strong list, in addition to the fact that most likely coordinate means it flat out dodges/range controls a missile carrier with its PS 11 boost and it has various fully passively modded attack options to take missile carriers out while avoiding arcs and running away while they try to reload or re-establish locks. It’s not an impossible task to beat Ghost/Fenn or any list, but it’s not a trivial one.

Not saying it's not tough man, just that the decimator has more in common than you think with it. Isard is giving it a FREE evade action, Ghost has to use its own or get coordinate. The systems slot is true, but having an EPT slot is actually better in my opinion, Lone Wolf, PTL or EH are nothing to scoff at especially when you get to use them post everyone else moving and with complete knowledge. And being able to hand out Kylo Crits is nothing to scoff at either for the big beautiful Imperial girl. Imperial crew are generally much better as well.

I'm also not sure where you're getting your math on the Torpedos+ missiles scenerio. Let's say triple Rho's with Cruise or harpoon missiles. One can't modify with focus or his target lock. Still gets up to 4 hits but let's call it 2 (even though I just rolled 3 and a focus with sample dice, because maybe sensor jammer is on), and assigns harpooned. Next Rho puts out let's say 3 hits with Kanan cancelling 1 and can spend his focus and TL to avoid jammer. Assigns harpooned as well. Last one same thing and deals another conservative 3 hits, and maybe even triggers harpooned.

That's 2 + 3 + 3 + Harpooned x2 for a conservative total of 10 damage and the Ghost is already half dead. Even if you aren't rolling great it would be hard not to have done at least 8 damage in one round.

Heck if you really want to stick it to the Ghost run Rhos with Harpooned for 2-3 and Cluster missiles for 1-2. With clusters you can get invite Kanan into range 1-2 and deal a max damage of 15-18 damage in one round.

And the new Glia monster is another solid Ghost hunter.

12 minutes ago, wurms said:

So should we take away Ahsoka's PS12 free action too then?

And the Ghost's weaknesses are:

-blind spots (it has none until Fenn dies) [So you're saying it does have some at some point then...]

-gets shut down by stress (especially Kanan) (stress basically gives it accuracy corrector with Ezra crew. But at least it cant boost) [Like I said gets shut down by stress, since Ezra Maul can already trigger regardless]

-easy to block large bases (this large base flies away from you, not at you, so it can boost at ps11 out of range of all but maybe one ship) [That's a fair point about the boosting but it does seriously jam up in a traffic jam with it's size especially when there are other bumpmasters floating around]

-requires closer formation flying in the day and age of Moby **** Harpooning. (no, it does not, coordiante is range 1-2, Fenn works at range 1-3 in his ps11 arc) [That is still a formation haha]

-no access to EPTs (THANK THE LORD!) [Amen! and hey we agree! Woot hahaha]

-extremely point heavy, half a Ghost is worth half points, half a Nym/Miranda/QuickDraw/Kylo is worth... (not really, you dont get points for the shuttle, so its only 55pts - less than a kitted out RAC) [Still more than the 0 points for all of the rest of the ships in the game including the ones I listed.....]

-and the most glaring one of all, 0 agility. Which means no C-3PO Fat Han business, gets shredded by swarms and ordinance, and is really easy to Kylo Crew/ability crit (sensor jammer + evade token shuts down one ships attack. Fenn's ability, and now with stressbot shuts down another ship. You are basically flinging naked dice at a 16hp sensor jammer ship) [See example I posted of Rhos versus the Ghost, Sensor jammer + evade takes away one hit from a 4-5 hit missiles/torpedo, definitely does not shut it down, Stressbot does not shut down a ship that already has it's tokens, Fenn is about the only one that does actually weaken an attack but with guidance chips and normal dice rolls you are still getting hits in on a 0 Agility ship]

It's a tough ship for sure, but definitely not the strongest build out there by any stretch in my opinion. (you need to play against it) [I have]

It's not the list is impossible to beat, or is even more troublesome than Paratanni was. It's the fact that in tournaments you need to build a list to beat this AND everything else. And that is the problem. Adding Expertise to everything to counter fenn, just screws you versus a stress ezra/low/miranda battle for instance. Meanwhile this Ghost/Fenn list is good against everything.

Think I got everything haha but anyways different opinons, and why is no one laughing about how Moby **** is censored hahaha.

3 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

I'm also not sure where you're getting your math on the Torpedos+ missiles scenerio. Let's say triple Rho's with Cruise or harpoon missiles. One can't modify with focus or his target lock. Still gets up to 4 hits but let's call it 2 (even though I just rolled 3 and a focus with sample dice, because maybe sensor jammer is on), and assigns harpooned. Next Rho puts out let's say 3 hits with Kanan cancelling 1 and can spend his focus and TL to avoid jammer. Assigns harpooned as well. Last one same thing and deals another conservative 3 hits, and maybe even triggers harpooned.

That's 2 + 3 + 3 + Harpooned x2 for a conservative total of 10 damage and the Ghost is already half dead. Even if you aren't rolling great it would be hard not to have done at least 8 damage in one round.

Heck if you really want to stick it to the Ghost run Rhos with Harpooned for 2-3 and Cluster missiles for 1-2. With clusters you can get invite Kanan into range 1-2 and deal a max damage of 15-18 damage in one round.

And the new Glia monster is another solid Ghost hunter.

Try running the X-Wing probability calculator.

One harpoon missile without either TL or Focus (or GC because LRS; tokens blocked by Fenn) vs Sensor Jammer = 1.15 hits. Evade token cancels that.

One Harpoon with TL but no Focus (stripped by Fenn) = 2 damage.

One Harpoon with both TL & Focus = 3.75 (because SJ does nothing this time.

Total from a perfect attack without anything being at the wrong range or out of arc = 5.75 not too shabby.

Your ships take 4 damage back. Next round you do no damage: all ships must reload; 2 need new TLs; and you still have no focus tokens. The one that kept it's TL, gets locked down by Fenn again and it's measly 1 expected damage is evaded by the evade token. And you take 4 damage again, killing a Gunboat or almost killing a Kimogila - if Fenn's shot didn't do anything either round.

Round 3, you only have 2 ships shooting, so Fenn shuts them both down, so you do 2 damage to the Ghost.

In the end, you have to kill Fenn first or you lose. Now, you can afford 3 Nu gunboats plus QD - but good luck getting every ship in the perfect position every round!

14 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

Ghost/Fenn typical build is:

Lothal Rebel with Ezra, Maul, TLT, Sensor Jammer, Engine Upgrade. Zeb in the Attack shuttle.

Fenn Rau with VI, Hot-shot Co-pilot, R3A2.

Ghost takes an evade action; Fenn can co-ordinate a boost at PS11. This means that it can arc-dodge unless you block it, but mostly it means that any ship you put into its range one side bubble of safety is no longer safe.

Take your typical 2 ship list against it: Fenn can either use R3A2 to stress one ship (eg if it has Expertise) and remove a focus token, or just strip a focus and use his pilot ability to shut down any tokens used to modify dice.

This means that your typical 3 dice shot at the Ghost which consists of hit, focus, blank becomes focus, focus, blank and you do no damage. If you did get 2 hits, the evade token blocks that extra damage. The second ship might get one or two hits through. Meanwhile, Fenn does pretty much no damage, but the Ghost does 4 - even against high agility ships with an evade token, which means you lose the damage race.

It is beatable:

1) kill Fenn first, whilst avoiding taking too much damage is a good plan but dependant on you being a better player or bringing a list that can outmanouevre both ships.

2) bring a list that is designed to kill the ghost - but still needs to be capable of beating everything else around. Eg 5 Cartel Marauders wrecks any ghost in about 3 rounds of shooting, but loses to a lot of other lists. Quad wookiees should win too, although I haven't tried them myself, and do well. Yorr/QD/Inq seems to be winning in the UK now, so must be able to beat it. Double Lothal Rebel might also work.

Meanwhile, a lot of people are whinging about it. It's no worse, in my opinion, than Paratanni, or Dengaroo, or Telgar, or ... etc, were. People whinged about them too, and got nerfs. I'm happy about that, because I was fed up with facing so many Jumpmasters! Currently, the Ghost is not winning big events because it can be out-played. But it's boring to lose to.

Missed Hot Shot as well good call. But however in this list Kanan isn't the pilot which means whatever you are losing his defensive ability and therefore allowing more hits from the rest of the ships/alphas in