To move someone of silhouette 1, you would need at least one Strenght upgrade. To hurl him into the ceiling, doing damage, as opposed to simply levitating him, you need the Hurl control upgrade. Then you simply make a Ranged combat check against the ceiling with a difficulty of PP using Discipline as your skill. So your roll would be GGGYFFP. If it’s someone with Adversary 1, upgrade that P to a C.

To reiterate Tramp

Against the minion you would roll:

aaapdff

you would need to succeed on the skill check and also roll 2 Force Pips to move the minion, you would cause 10+Success-Soak Damage

Against the Nemesis it would be exactly the same difficulty, unless the GM decided it should be an opposed roll, in which case the targets Discipline or Athletics would become the difficulty. Let’s say they have a Willpower 3 and 2 ranks in Discipline:

aaapdccff

As with the minion you need to succeed on the check and also spend 2 Force Pips to cause the same amount of damage; 10+Success-Soak

ok for with 4 will and 1 in disc and 2 force points.. move a person at short range to hurl into ceiling

3 green 1 yellow 2 force= gggyff

for them it should only be the following:

for minion - 1 purple (because they are sil 1)

for lvl 1 Adversary /nemesis/import story character - 1 purple (1 for sil size 1 and upgrade to Red for lvl 1 in Adversary correct?)

so it would be gggyffp for minion.. and gggyffr for Adversary correct?

Yep, that’s correct, unless the gm decided the difficulty was a opposed difficulty

and if my Adversary was a mirror of me lets say it would be

me- gggyff

him- pppr

correct? now would he also get the Adversary upgrade to make it pprr?

2 hours ago, LordEnforcer said:

and if my Adversary was a mirror of me lets say it would be

me- gggyff

him- pppr

correct? now would he also get the Adversary upgrade to make it pprr?

Adversary only applies when being targeted by combat checks.

In this case, it doesn't apply since you're not using Move to hurl something at the Nemesis, so it's just pppr to resist.

11 hours ago, LordEnforcer said:

now  would he also get the Adversary upgrade      to make it p  prr? 

Only if you wanted to be a particularly mean gm

Ok for minions per raw they are 1 target and per squad rules they are 1 silhouetter bigger.

You roll 3green 1 y. 2 white. You need a success on an average check. You need enough strength upgrades to do a sil2 object. Either 3 pips 1 for power 2 for activating str twice. Or 1 pip and 2 strength upgrades. Any adversary or ranged defense applies.

For 2 npcs you need average check based on The targets discipline or resilience. Use the most difficult roll. Upgrade with adversary or ranged defense. increase difficulty 1 for autofire. Roll discipline plus force.

You need 1 pip for power. 1 pip for str. 1 pip for magnitude.

4 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

Only if you wanted to be a particularly mean gm

All modifiers for ranged attacks apply. So adversary and ranged defense apply as they do for all ranged attacks.

22 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

All modifiers for ranged attacks apply. So adversary and ranged defense apply as they do for all ranged attacks.

True, but combat checks are not normally an opposed check, applying Adversary 2 to a 3 Willpower 2 Discipline Nemesis is really making them much tougher than the usual 1 Difficulty of a Silhouette 1 target.

Im definitely not saying you can’t do it, but that I don’t and wouldn’t recommend it in that particular situation. Now if it’s not opposed then definitely it should apply, Defence too.

I am sorry I just thought that the difficulty using MOVE was different.. in that i thought it used Silhouette as the difficulty then add ranged defense and upgrade if they are nem/story rival

It usually does use Silhouette, but there’s a side bar about opposing Force Powers that a gm could use to override the normal difficulty

23 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Adversary only applies when being targeted by combat checks.

In this case, it doesn't apply since you're not using Move to hurl something at the Nemesis, so it's just pppr to resist.

Targeting them with move makes the discipline s ranged attack so it us a combat check.

3 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

It usually does use Silhouette, but there’s a side bar about opposing Force Powers that a gm could use to override the normal difficulty

That sidebar suggests only making it opposed if it isn't already opposed or a combat check (if I'm remembering it correctly). It's certainly under the purview of the GM if they want to make it opposed. In that case I'd agree that Adversary should not be applied.

8 hours ago, LordEnforcer said:

I am sorry I just thought that the difficulty using MOVE was different.. in that i thought it used Silhouette as the difficulty then add ranged defense and upgrade if they are nem/story rival

Normally, if you're hurling an object* AT somebody, the difficulty is the object's Silhouette.

Now, if you're using Move to pick up a Nemesis (or plot-important/named rival) and then hurl them (be it into a wall/floor or another target), then the GM has the option to make the check use an opposed difficulty as the Nemesis you're trying to affect resists the power in some fashion the GM deems is appropriate.

*this being an inanimate object, a minion, or most rivals.

6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Targeting them with move makes the discipline s ranged attack so it us a combat check.

Except in the example that LordEnforcer is asking about, he's not attacking the opponent with a hurled object, but instead is using the opponent as the hurled object. The difference is subtle, but it's there, as using Move to lift a person doesn't itself involve a combat check.

As a for instance, if my PC were to use Move to lift and then slam a Fallen Master (F&D core pg411) into a wall, the GM could chose to make that an opposed check against the Fallen Master's Discipline, setting the difficulty for my PC's own Discipline check at 4 challenge dice (Willpower 4, Discipline 4), with his two ranks of Adversary having nothing to do with the difficulty, because at no point is he the actual target of the ranged combat check that hurling an object with Move requires, as the target is the wall.

Or I could just grab a Silhouette 2 object and hurl that at the Fallen Master, at which point his Adversary 2 talent kicks in as he's now being targeted by a combat check, setting the difficulty of my Discipline check at 2 challenge dice, and he can't make it an opposed check since using Move in this way already requires a combat check as per the side bar on page 283.

3 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Except in the example that LordEnforcer is asking about, he's not attacking the opponent with a hurled object, but instead is using the opponent as the hurled object. The difference is subtle, but it's there, as using Move to lift a person doesn't itself involve a combat check.

As a for instance, if my PC were to use Move to lift and then slam a Fallen Master (F&D core pg411) into a wall, the GM could chose to make that an opposed check against the Fallen Master's Discipline, setting the difficulty for my PC's own Discipline check at 4 challenge dice (Willpower 4, Discipline 4), with his two ranks of Adversary having nothing to do with the difficulty, because at no point is he the actual target of the ranged combat check that hurling an object with Move requires, as the target is the wall.

Or I could just grab a Silhouette 2 object and hurl that at the Fallen Master, at which point his Adversary 2 talent kicks in as he's now being targeted by a combat check, setting the difficulty of my Discipline check at 2 challenge dice, and he can't make it an opposed check since using Move in this way already requires a combat check as per the side bar on page 283.

Yes. But he specifically stated he wants to Hurl. Hurl requires a ranged attack.

4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Yes. But he specifically stated he wants to Hurl. Hurl requires a ranged attack.

Which given how finicky this system can be with wording*, per the description of the Adversary talent in all three core rulebooks, means that said talent wouldn't apply as the Nemesis in question isn't the one being directly targeted by the combat check to hurl the object.

*case in point, per Sam Stewart you can't use Enhance's Force Leap effect to engage/disengage since you have to spend a movement maneuver to engage/disengage, and is specifically something the power as written doesn't cover.

2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Which given how finicky this system can be with wording*, per the description of the Adversary talent in all three core rulebooks, means that said talent wouldn't apply as the Nemesis in question isn't the one being directly targeted by the combat check to hurl the object.

*case in point, per Sam Stewart you can't use Enhance's Force Leap effect to engage/disengage since you have to spend a movement maneuver to engage/disengage, and is specifically something the power as written doesn't cover.

In order to hurl someone you make a ranged attack. You are targeting them with the power. Adversary applies to ranged attacks. I certainly would not allow someone to wiggle out of the difficulty upgrades and set backs just because they decided to hurl the target into a wall instead of hurling an object at the target.

On 5/22/2018 at 8:54 PM, Daeglan said:

In order to hurl someone you make a ranged attack. You are targeting them with the power. Adversary applies to ranged attacks. I certainly would not allow someone to wiggle out of the difficulty upgrades and set backs just because they decided to hurl the target into a wall instead of hurling an object at the target.

So by that statement, the target could never make it an opposed difficulty to resist being the object hurled, since the sidebar calls out that Force power checks that involve a combat check can't be opposed.

15 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

So by that statement, the target could never make it an opposed difficulty to resist being the object hurled, since the sidebar calls out that Force power checks that involve a combat check can't be opposed.

Yup. instead they get all the combat difficulties piled on. Which likely would be harder most of the time. Since it gets upgraded for adversary and ranged defense applies. And the GM can spend a destiny to make it harder.

When my PCs want to hurl someone important, I call for an opposed check to see if he is able to lift it. After, the PC, if he succeed, can make an range attack as described in the move tree.

That would require two actions...

Which a player does not have normally.

2 minutes ago, Decorus said:

That would require two actions...

Which a player does not have normally.

I consider it all part of the action but hey my table my rules like they said.

11 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Yup. instead they get all the combat difficulties piled on. Which likely would be harder most of the time. Since it gets upgraded for adversary and ranged defense applies. And the GM can spend a destiny to make it harder.

I disagree with that interpretation, but you're welcome to it.