Hey thanks for the response! Totally thought I might have come off as too abrasive and you guys went off in pursuit of greener pastures as it were. But I really appreciate you guys responding.

I think you guys pretty much nailed it on a lot of the strengths of the Uthuk right now, and while I haven’t been testing it I similarly think Waiqar May be the best overall counter to Uthuk. Also I think Waiqar’s resistance to panic is another strong counter for them.

An addendum since I sent that email- I’ve gotten in multiple reps with the list I described against what I see as one of the current optimal Uthuk lists right now (it utilizes many of the upgrades you discussed in the episode) and the struggle has been REAL. I go into more detail in a previous forum post, but I think the major problem is the Uthuk all around speed + Ravos’ initial panic is a hard counter to early game inspiration stacking. Normally with my list turn 1 Hawthorne can cheerlead while everyone else gets into position. But if you’re trying to clear panic AND gain inspiration that means everyone is rallying while the Uthuk get in position, and because of their superior speed the Uthuk can really capitalize on that and dominate the battlefield early. Maybe the solution is to just accept the early panic token (it’s coming back anyway once the threshers get in position).

Going to experiment with dropping SW and Wraithstep for Wind Rune on the Cav, and dropping CQT for Tempered Steel on the Spears. Hawthorne is on permanent rallying detail and close security for the archers. Embrace the early panic. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Caveat: only partway through the podcast, so maybe you guys address it differently

2 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

I go into more detail in a previous forum post, but I think the major problem is the Uthuk all around speed + Ravos’ initial panic is a hard counter to early game inspiration stacking. Normally with my list turn 1 Hawthorne can cheerlead while everyone else gets into position. But if you’re trying to clear panic AND gain inspiration that means everyone is rallying while the Uthuk get in position, and because of their superior speed the Uthuk can really capitalize on that and dominate the battlefield early.

That’s one thing that I’ve not understood. I play as Uthuk and I’m torn on what I think of Ravos’ extra ability to give everyone a panic token.

On one hand, I love it and find it amazing. Opponents don’t unpack their armies into good position and try to get rid of those tokens first. It gives me staggering board control as now I’m in range to attack units that haven’t yet moved and I can keep an entire army inside their own deployment zone. They also spend all those inspiration tokens on removing panic instead of stocking them to ready exhaust cards. The less they use MOInspiration and Tempered Steel, the longer my units live to do damage.

On the other hand, I find it to be the hands down weakest bonus text of any hero in the game if my opponent has perspective and foresight. One set of panic tokens compared to the constant panic refresh my Threshers provide is pretty weak. Since my Threshers do do this as well, an opponent who just ignores the panic and gets on with building inspiration, unpacking, and finding good positions has lost very little. It’s how I deal with it in Uthuk mirror matches. Better board control and winning charge duels is always a benefit whereas an extra panic token is sometimes a penalty.

2 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

Maybe the solution is to just accept the early panic token (it’s coming back anyway once the threshers get in position).

Not maybe. It is the only reasonable response UNLESS your opponent is running some pantscrap crazy Uthuk list with no Spined Thresher units or Support Spined Thresher in a ZerkerStar.

2 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

Going to experiment with dropping SW and Wraithstep for Wind Rune on the Cav, and dropping CQT for Tempered Steel on the Spears. Hawthorne is on permanent rallying detail and close security for the archers. Embrace the early panic. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Please do! I think we all need more stories out there to help inform strategy on the Uthuk.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Opponents don’t unpack their armies into good position and try to get rid of those tokens first. It gives me staggering board control as now I’m in range to attack units that haven’t yet moved and I can keep an entire army inside their own deployment zone.

I would say sitting still on turn 1 and shedding panic also gives Uthuk players staggering board control. It's literally 16% of the game where the Uthuk can position a 4-7 speed charge and your opponents are just rallying off panic. On the other hand Uthuk are so fast its hard to shift or turn out of trouble against them.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Better board control and winning charge duels is always a benefit whereas an extra panic token is sometimes a penalty.

This is an interesting trade. Of course with Warsprinter and Agressive Shrieker I'm not sure you you can possibly win an initial charge battle against berserkers (unless you are also berserkers). To me the only thing I've seen is infantry take it in the teeth and hope the cavalry can kill enough other stuff to come help on the flanks (spoiler alert: I havent seen it happen enough).

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

It is the only reasonable response UNLESS your opponent is running some pantscrap crazy Uthuk list with no Spined Thresher units or Support Spined Thresher in a ZerkerStar.

Agreed. But then again ST unit and an ST in the Zerkstar seem like a prereq for Uthuk army building.

1 minute ago, flightmaster101 said:

Agreed. But then again ST unit and an ST in the Zerkstar seem like a prereq for Uthuk army building.

I don't entirely agree. I have never used the support ST in my Berserkers, and I have been happy with my list performance so far (7-0 overall, with wins of one 7-4, two 8-3, and four 10-1).

5 minutes ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

I don't entirely agree. I have never used the support ST in my Berserkers, and I have been happy with my list performance so far (7-0 overall, with wins of one 7-4, two 8-3, and four 10-1).

We must play in very different metas then. Our two Uthuk players have berserkers that never leave home without their pet ST. Interesting.

Bottom line: I'm gonna have to proxy some Uthuk. Know your enemy and all that...

I would also be interested in knowing your record with other factions. 7 & 0 with 4 wins coming by 10-1 says a lot. The other possibility is that you are just far and away the best player in your area.

2 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Bottom line: I'm gonna have to proxy some Uthuk. Know your enemy and all that...

Definitely. Having played them for the past couple tournaments here, I am now working on ideas of how to beat them consistently and have some things to try out.

1 hour ago, flightmaster101 said:

This is an interesting trade. Of course with Warsprinter and Agressive Shrieker I'm not sure you you can possibly win an initial charge battle against berserkers (unless you are also berserkers). To me the only thing I've seen is infantry take it in the teeth and hope the cavalry can kill enough other stuff to come help on the flanks (spoiler alert: I havent seen it happen enough).

Sometimes you choose between bad and terrible, not between good and better. This is one of those moments. Even if I can’t win a charge duel with berserkers, maybe I can edge up near a rock that forces a Thresher to go around it and wast one more turn before getting a flank. At the very least, a single turn to correct some positioning might be critical.

Also, not likely, but it is possible to shift sideways enough to dodge that speed 7 charge in turn two. Forcing a turn certainly slows Uthuk down. I’d rather try for that than waste a turn eliminating panic tokens that will just come back.

I also agree with the Infantry comment. It’s crazy to watch a 9 tray Spearman unit armor up, then use shield wall against you and reduce that awesome 20 damage speed 7 charge down to 6 dead Spearmen.

1 hour ago, flightmaster101 said:

Agreed. But then again ST unit and an ST in the Zerkstar seem like a prereq for Uthuk army building.

The default heavy upgrade for the Zerkstar is the Front Line Thresher that adds reroll and brutal. The Support Thresher gives you that weird panic generating effect. It’s rare to see in a ZerkStar. Though I guess you could use it in a some kind of crazy build that just causes as many panic tests as possible instead of direct damage.

7 minutes ago, Church14 said:

The default heavy upgrade for the Zerkstar is the Front Line Thresher that adds reroll and brutal. The Support Thresher gives you that weird panic generating effect. It’s rare to see in a ZerkStar. Though I guess you could use it in a some kind of crazy build that just causes as many panic tests as possible instead of direct damage.

I realize now that my other post might have been misleading...don't know if @flightmaster101 meant the Support Thresher specifically (or just the Thresher upgrade), but I haven't used either.

25 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Sometimes you choose between bad and terrible, not between good and better.

Such is my life.

25 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I also agree with the Infantry comment. It’s crazy to watch a 9 tray Spearman unit armor up, then use shield wall against you and reduce that awesome 20 damage speed 7 charge down to 6 dead Spearmen.

I hope when Darnati finally release this tactic will come to the Latari as well.

17 minutes ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

I realize now that my other post might have been misleading...don't know if @flightmaster101 meant the Support Thresher specifically (or just the Thresher upgrade), but I haven't used either.

Well usually what I see is a block of 2-4 ST and then a front line ST in with a Zerkstar.

File leader works wonders against the Uthuk on your units that are guarding your shooters. So does shield wall and visored helms. Reanimated with raven standard also.

For anyone struggling against Uthuk with Waiqar this has been Rocking and I honestly feel it’s the strongest all around list I have played with them.

194/200
Reanimate Archers [45] 3x2
Tempered steel [3]
Raven-Standard Bearer [3]
Close Quarters Targeting [3]
Total Unit Cost: 58

Reanimates [35] 3x2
File Leader [6]
Raven-Standard Bearer [3]
Aggressive Drummer [5]
Total Unit Cost: 49

Reanimates [35] 3x2
Ankaur Maro (I) [20]
Blighted Vexillum Bearer [3]
Marching Drummer [2]
Total Unit Cost: 60

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

I ran the above army against Drakoniss' elves, and it was a sight to behold. The beautiful part is having two units that Ankaur Maro can add trays to, which provides a lot of versatility. In my game, I sent the Reanimates out to collect supplies while the Archers were augmented by Ankaur Maro's Reanimate unit. Because of terrain, the Archers and Carrion Lancers were really the only targets, and the Archers managed to end the game with as many trays as they started with.

I could see another scenario in which the Reanimates are on the front line getting more trays, while the Reanimate Archers hang back and unleash volley after volley. What I didn't realize at first is that with a 3x4 of Reanimates spearheading the army (thanks, Maro!), they are open to charges by all the other units the enemy has. As soon as you are engaged with the first enemy, you dial in that melee attack at initiative 3 every round, attacking the unit you are engaged with, AND attacking other units that charge you. That's a lot of attacking! Of course, this might make them nervous to charge, which is fine because your Reanimate Archers are peppering them with arrows.

I definitely want to try this one again, but there are some others I am also eager to try. Maro bringing Spined Threshers, any one?