4 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

This can be solved by making models occupy a set volume based on their base size and that volume is what you draw LoS to, not the actual model.

IE: Make infantry models on 28mm bases occupy a cylinder that is 28mm in diameter and 3" in height. A Speeder Bike could occupy a space up to4" in height. And so on and so forth. And then saying that a model has cover if it is at least 50%(or some other chosen %) obscured.

Deciding how much of an invisible cylinder is visible has its own challenges. The easiest answer is to expect the players to use the models as provided and allow TO's the option to allow or disallow conversions. Modelling for advantage, or making modifications to a model to gain in game advantage, is a tricky subject. There is a fine line between conversions intended to look cool and conversions intended to gain in game advantage. That line can be super hard to nail down in writing. To quote Justice P. Stewart... "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it...". In other words, FFG may never be able to write adequate rules that allow conversions while preventing abuses... but it's super obvious when someone is abusing the system for gain.

4 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Pink lightsaber isn't canon for Luke, and it's certainly not Anakin's Lightsaber. Gunna have to deny any attacks from Luke in melee.

Hey it’s you! We were in the same cohort, getting our JDs in Rules Lawyering from Troll University, remember? Nice to see a fellow alum.

4 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

This isn't true though. If you attack a unit of troopers, any terrain in play should already have rules, such if it obscures or not, and if so, what type of over it provides.

The only case where I can't deal damage to a character is if I don't have LOS. So if the guy is behind a wall, I obviously can't kill him.

Plus, the defender gets to choose how damage is distributed. So the attacker NEVER gets to choose which mini dies, and the entire unit suffers all the damage, unless you don't have LOS.

I've yet to see a case where you don't have LOS to the HH-12 but have LOS to the rest of the unit. And even if that were the case, the HH-12 can still die if the commander of the unit were to die. They just swap places.

How much cover terrain gives doesn't enter into it. By the rules if you are shooting at my squad, and you cannot draw LOS from any of your minis in the attacking unit to my HH-12, then my HH-12 will not die. Period. Doesn't matter how much damage you do, doesn't matter if you kill my leader. He will not die, you cannot hit him. You must be able to draw LOS from at least 1 of your minis to damage/kill it.

Also in the situation where the unit leader dies, yes the mini swaps but the HH-12 is still alive and can use his weapon, he is just represented by a different miniature in that situation. Yes that is confusing and I don't like it but that is how I understand it to work.

To be clear this is an exceedingly fringe case that might actually matter in only 0.1% of games, I am merely playing devil's advocate. I do not believe this should prevent FFG from allowing customization. I am arguing that such customization can have an impact in gameplay however and for certain types of people that can be a sticky point. Although how you pose your AT-ST has the same impact and obviously different head/leg positions of that are legal.

Accidentally double-posted, ignore this post.

37 minutes ago, shivore said:

Also in the situation where the unit leader dies, yes the mini swaps but the HH-12 is still alive and can use his weapon, he is just represented by a different miniature in that situation. Yes that is confusing and I don't like it but that is how I understand it to work.

I believe this will prove out not to be the case. If your interpretation were intended, the rules would just have you designate one of the remaining models as the unit leader. I feel certain the implicit intent prevents one-model special weapon units.

2 hours ago, KrisWall said:

Deciding how much of an invisible cylinder is visible has its own challenges. The easiest answer is to expect the players to use the models as provided and allow TO's the option to allow or disallow conversions. Modelling for advantage, or making modifications to a model to gain in game advantage, is a tricky subject. There is a fine line between conversions intended to look cool and conversions intended to gain in game advantage. That line can be super hard to nail down in writing. To quote Justice P. Stewart... "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it...". In other words, FFG may never be able to write adequate rules that allow conversions while preventing abuses... but it's super obvious when someone is abusing the system for gain.

Not really. All the games, like Infinity, where the volume of the miniature is what matters make widgets to aid in the determination of LoS. And we all know FFG loves making widgets!

im not seeing anything saying either way on that subject.
If the mini with the heavy weapon dies, do you lose that weapon or is it still available to fire?

Submitted a question for that. My guess is it doesnt, and i only guess that because the heavy upgrade description mentions "adds specific trooper minis to a unit" - logically though, unless said mini got absolutely obliterating nothing stops his fellow minis from grabbing the gun, so no idea.

I'd say if the model with the weapon dies you lose the weapon. Given that you can choose which troopers get allocated wounds its your fault if you give wounds to him, unless he was the only eligible model. Which I like since that would make the positioning of your upgrades matter.

2 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

I'd say if the model with the weapon dies you lose the weapon. Given that you can choose which troopers get allocated wounds its your fault if you give wounds to him, unless he was the only eligible model. Which I like since that would make the positioning of your upgrades matter.

Except for Force Choke, which is basically Vader got close and went "You lose that 20-30pt mini" while he butchers the neighboring unit with his actual attack.

3 hours ago, kaffis said:

I believe this will prove out not to be the case. If your interpretation were intended, the rules would just have you designate one of the remaining models as the unit leader. I feel certain the implicit intent prevents one-model special weapon units.

It's not my interpretation, but it is the one passed down from my local event coordinator who is in direct email contact with the lead designer of the game.

14 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

im not seeing anything saying either way on that subject.
If the mini with the heavy weapon dies, do you lose that weapon or is it still available to fire?

Submitted a question for that. My guess is it doesnt, and i only guess that because the heavy upgrade description mentions "adds specific trooper minis to a unit" - logically though, unless said mini got absolutely obliterating nothing stops his fellow minis from grabbing the gun, so no idea.

Of course you lose the dice. Dice are based on minis, not the unit (kinda).

PG14

Determine Eligible Minis: Each mini in the attacker is eligible to contribute to the attack pool if that mini has line of sight to any mini in the defender.

15 hours ago, shivore said:

How much cover terrain gives doesn't enter into it. By the rules if you are shooting at my squad, and you cannot draw LOS from any of your minis in the attacking unit to my HH-12, then my HH-12 will not die. Period. Doesn't matter how much damage you do, doesn't matter if you kill my leader. He will not die, you cannot hit him. You must be able to draw LOS from at least 1 of your minis to damage/kill it.

Also in the situation where the unit leader dies, yes the mini swaps but the HH-12 is still alive and can use his weapon, he is just represented by a different miniature in that situation. Yes that is confusing and I don't like it but that is how I understand it to work.

To be clear this is an exceedingly fringe case that might actually matter in only 0.1% of games, I am merely playing devil's advocate. I do not believe this should prevent FFG from allowing customization. I am arguing that such customization can have an impact in gameplay however and for certain types of people that can be a sticky point. Although how you pose your AT-ST has the same impact and obviously different head/leg positions of that are legal.

I see what you're saying now. I don't think it will be a big deal because LOS is reciprocal. So yea, I don't get an attack this round but neither do you. Currently the only one who could abuse this is Snowtroopers because they have Relentless so they can pop in n out of cover and attack.

On 3/28/2018 at 5:57 AM, Undeadguy said:

If it is WYSIWYG, you better paint Luke's saber blue because the weapon is Anakin's Lightsaber. Not Luke's Lightsaber which is green.

So no, it's not going to be WYSIWYG.

That's not really WYSIWYG anyways... that's just pettyfogging.

Does Luke have a lightsaber? Yes. Good he can use it.

Does Luke have a pink lightsaber and not a blue one? Who cares - it's still a lightsaber.

On 3/28/2018 at 5:57 AM, Undeadguy said:

Double post.

12 minutes ago, KryatDragon said:

That's not really WYSIWYG anyways... that's just pettyfogging.

Does Luke have a lightsaber? Yes. Good he can use it.

Does Luke have a pink lightsaber and not a blue one? Who cares - it's still a lightsaber.

I mean yea, if someone is going to be petty and say an AT-ST is illegal cuz it has all it's weapons, I'm going to be petty and say you need the right lightsaber.

Everyone arguments here are somewhat solid but we still need official word for what is allowed and what is not. We need certainty as I'm sure many people is holding their horses to do certain conversions.

What if building the AT-ST extremely tall/short gives dis/advantage, despite LOS being bidirectional people will come up with certain strategies using terrain cover that favor their specific AT-ST build.
What if something so simple as head-swaps are not always allowed cause a heavy weapons guy with a duros head can be misleading for your opponent.
What if third party components are not allowed.

wysiwyg is referring to the actual model, not the paintjob

Now if they modded it to be Maul or Kylo's saber you could say something about it because he clearly doesnt have that one.

Nobody has ever bawked about a gun not being gunmetal colored. Ever. Color means nothing.

On ‎28‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 4:02 PM, ImperialOfficer said:

Restricting paint schemes and the models themselves is what some of us were worried about when Legion was announced.

I did actually miss that one. Where did they say, that paint schemes are restricted?

4 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Nobody has ever bawked about a gun not being gunmetal colored. Ever. Color means nothing.

I would speculate that for Legion we'll see text very similar to the following Imperial Assault tourney regulation text:

Quote

Players may paint their models. They cannot modify a model in any way that would create confusion about which unit the model represents.

Players cannot modify model bases to alter their size or shape.

The emphasis is mine.

Ordinarily I would agree that color means nothing. However, if they release Deathtroopers and someone has previously painted their core / expansion vanilla Stormtroopers to look like Deathtroopers... that MIGHT be an issue. It's reasonable that someone might mistake the Stormies for Deathtroopers in that instance.

I suppose we'll see.

But in general... yeah give your Stormies blue E-11's and make Vader's armor pink, that'll be fine.

32 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

However, if they release Deathtroopers and someone has previously painted their core / expansion vanilla Stormtroopers to look like Deathtroopers... that MIGHT be an issue.

I actually thought about doing that ...

The question is probably in the details. Deathtroopers have different guns, different helmets and green visors. Now if both them and your Stormies are, like, truly all black then yeah, there might be some problems. In that case I recommend Novatrooper colors. Otherwise it's possible they might be distinguished.

On 3/30/2018 at 1:29 PM, DerBaer said:

I did actually miss that one. Where did they say, that paint schemes are restricted?

Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to say that I hope they don't go down that road.

That players like me, don't want the restricted paint schemes, or restrictions on the figures.

Paint scheme's wont be restricted. The pink versus blue lightsaber is immaterial. Stylistic choices are never in doubt, and a paint color can't create confusion.

In all of FFG's tournament rules it is pretty clear that they include the boiler plate something about you can paint and modify, but you cannot create confusion to what a model represents. You see it in Imperial Assault, You see it in Armada, You see it in Runewars. The same line is going to show up in Legion's tourney rules.

The next part is to understand does my AT-ST without a mortar attached cause confusion if said absent mortar starts shooting? How about a AT-RT with the wrong weapon?

I honestly don't know if its going to be spelled out in the Tourney rules on this. I half way expect it will not. I think it will come down to tourney organizers.

One thing is to be sure, as I like and plan to go to tourney's I'll be going straight WYSIWYG. Some of that will be through multiple units purchased and some through magnetizing. But the end result is that won't affect me.

20 hours ago, Hawktel said:

Paint scheme's wont be restricted. The pink versus blue lightsaber is immaterial. Stylistic choices are never in doubt, and a paint color can't create confusion.

I want to paint my Stormtroopers black. I fear that this will cause confusion, when Death Trooper are released ...

I said in another thread, the big thing for the organized rules I think is going to be terrain, since cover is so important.

How many piece of terrain can each person bring?

How big can each piece be? Am I limited to just the barriers from the core, or can I bring a couple of buildings?

How is terrain placement going to work?