2 hours ago, Stefan said:

Well...no. Je had just shown himself not to be trusted with the big plans, and wouldn't you know it, the second he learned of this one, he ****** it up. It's only at the end of the movie that he earns the right to know the plan by actually understanding a) the plan itself and b) what it means to lead .

Ok, his plan at the beginning worked, it just had heavy casualties. That is NOT reason to NOT be told that a plan even exsits, without a plan people get desperate whitch is exactly what happened. Poe never "messed up the plan" so saying that he doesn't get to know because he'd just mess it up doesn't work. If you don't want someone to not mess up your plan you TELL them about it. You cannot blame Poe for reacting rather reasonably to a situation created by not telling ANYONE the plan or that a plan even exists

Why is the whole “no one told them the plan” thing even a thing?

Has anyone even taken a moment to think about it?

You’re in command of this tiny little fleet. Most of your crew has been sweating their impending doom since Starkiller just a few (days-hours ago). You come out of hyperspace. Moments later the FO is right back on you.

What’s more likely?

A.) The First Order has discovered a way to track ships through hyperspace. A technology so rare few people even believe it exists.

B.) There’s a mole on board one of the ships who fed the exit coordinates to the FO with a long range communication device.

I know which I’d believe.

Has no one heard this?

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED BY THE WAY.

Had Poe never been allowed to know the plan, he’d never have yapped it over an unsecured channel. DJ would never have known. Finn DJ and Rose would have died because DJ wouldn’t have been able to sell them out and the transports would have escaped unharmed.

All this obvious **** aside, it is a military operation.

You dont get to know the plan, you follow orders.

FFS... the fandom is really under my skin this week...

16 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

This is equal parts disturbing and truth. I rarely agree with something that makes me throw up in my mouth.

@Darth Sanguis the reason is 1. That holdo never confirmed that she even had a plan, something you should at least pretend to have to keep moral up, 2. Even after demotion Poe is likely still one of the highest ranking members of the Resistance and his demotion had nothing to do with loyalty so he still should have been informed. 3. That's not even an official explanation and 4. It doesn't even work b/c bad writing results in charicters knowing information that they explicitly shouldn't know (Finn wouldn't try to hack the MSD if he knew about the cloaked shuttles, so why would the person next to him know?)

49 minutes ago, mad mandolorian said:

@Darth Sanguis the reason is 1. That holdo never confirmed that she even had a plan, something you should at least pretend to have to keep moral up, 2. Even after demotion Poe is likely still one of the highest ranking members of the Resistance and his demotion had nothing to do with loyalty so he still should have been informed. 3. That's not even an official explanation and 4. It doesn't even work b/c bad writing results in charicters knowing information that they explicitly shouldn't know (Finn wouldn't try to hack the MSD if he knew about the cloaked shuttles, so why would the person next to him know?)

Im sorry i just found that way funnier than i probably should have, not being productive or sarcastic or anything

On 3/28/2018 at 4:00 AM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I mean, I'm not opposed to such nuances and commentaries (e.g. extravegent demonstrations vs tactical restraint). What I, and many others I've talked to do not like, however, is ..............

Regardless of how they’re portroyed in the films so far, t he First Order and its rise is one of the more intriguing aspects of the new canon to me. In my opinion the current canon does adequately explain their rise and how they amassed their military, although, to be fair, alot of the details are still left unfilled and the films themselves do not provide the background context for the their existence, or at least not enough of it. If you’re just a fan of the movies and don’t read any of the books or supplemantary materiel I can understand where you’re coming from, otherwise the answers are definitely there for you to dig into.

Suffice to say, everything the FO was able to achieve they achieved to due to Palpatine’s contingency plan. Their advance tech were the culmination of years of R&D which started under the Tarkin Initiative during the time of the Empire and continued under the FO regime. Military infrastructure was already there in the Unknown Region, built up in secret over time during Palpatine’s reign. Thrawn was hugely instrumental in this endeavor being from that region himself. So they were already set up to rise from the ashes of the Empire right from the start.

The other element is the Unknown Region itself, which provided a perfect hiding place for the FO to grow because of it’s inaccessibilty. We get a sense of that from the Rebels tv series when Kallus tried to chase down the Ghost crew who managed to escape to Lira San through a series of star clusters, which is in Wild Space bordering the Unknown Regions. The severe dangers of nagivating that space is deterrent enough for the New Republic not to pursue the remnants of the Empire.

The big wild card here is Snoke; we still don’t know much about him, where he comes from, his history, how he usurped leadership of the FO from the old guard (Sloane and former Imp leaders) and how his influence changed the FO. His story needs to be told, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Finally, I’d like to mention that the TLJ novelisation is great and adds alot of background context the film lacked and is able to tie certain elements of the story to previous SW books, which I appreciate alot. I highly recommend it, unless you’re someone who hates the film with a passion, in which case it will probably not change your mind.

P.S Sorry to the OP for the huge digression.

P.P.S I realised there are all this other better replies after sending this. Gosh I’m slow at typing.

7 hours ago, Wraithdt said:

Regardless of how they’re portroyed in the films so far, t he First Order and its rise is one of the more intriguing aspects of the new canon to me. In my opinion the current canon does adequately explain their rise and how they amassed their military, although, to be fair, alot of the details are still left unfilled and the films themselves do not provide the background context for the their existence, or at least not enough of it. If you’re just a fan of the movies and don’t read any of the books or supplemantary materiel I can understand where you’re coming from, otherwise the answers are definitely there for you to dig into.

I'm glad that this is being explicated in the extended universe sources. As someone who considers myself a huge Star Wars fan, even I don't have the time or interest to read the comics, novels, or film novelizations nor do I have the time and interest to buy a $400 gaming system and play through a Battlefront II campaign to learn crucial backstory and context for the new films.

But the difference, for me, has been that with the OT and the PT I never felt completely lost or like giant gaping questions were nagging at me the whole time. The OT had the luxury of not needing to give us an account of how the Emperor and the Empire came to be, because it's a starting point that says "here's this world, here's it's current state, now let's have an adventure in this world." The PT actually does a very nice job of flushing out the hints of backstory we get from Obi-Wan in ANH, by seeing the "Clone Wars," and the Jedi Order, and the emergence of the "Dark Times" of Palpatine. All the while, the PT does a pretty decent job of flushing out the world and its places and making it feel big and lived-in.

The NT tries to do what the OT does and says "here's the situation, there's a new Emperor, a new Empire, and they are bad and scary and far more powerful than our good guys!" This would work just fine, if it weren't supposed to be sequel trilogy. We're not staring from nothing wit this NT, it's supposed to be a continuation about a story we've seen portrayed in six films over forty years of cinema. But it doesn't work, because at this point the "All Powerful Empire II and its new All Powerful Emperor" story has to somehow be situated with the fact that we already know that the Alliance to Restore the Republic defeated the bad guys, toppled their Empire, and freed the local systems. So how do we get from A to B? As an audience, we need those questions at least given a cursory answer, or they will nag at us and distract us from the story that is being told. JJ gives us no such answers in TFA, and RJ takes the subversive strategy of also giving us no answers while telling us that we shouldn't care, we should kill off the past of Star Wars, and that the struggles of Good and Evil and Light and Dark at the core of the PT and OT are futile and pointless , as per jaded Luke's revelations about how the Force actively interferes and balances light against dark and dark against light.


So, I'm glad the EU is tackling the context and connecting the dots convincingly in the journey from RotJ to TFA, but it's something I or other movie-only fans will bother hunting down and buying and consuming. And I feel like it's different this time around... as a fan I never felt confused or bewildered or annoyed by a lack of information in the story telling of the OT or the PT (though, who the **** Grevious was and why he was coughing and being annoying came sorta close...). The EU that existed around those focal points expanded the story and filled in even more backstory, but weren't necessary to understand or enjoy the basic setting and plot line in the films. They were supplemental, but not foundational. I feel like with the NT, it seems like those additional sources are more integral to connecting the dots and answering the big "how?" questions raised and left mystery-boxed by the NT. Maybe this is an intentional Post Disney strategy? Disney is, if nothing else, a master of integrative cross-platform content and marketing, so if they can give consumers more reasons/need to buy the comics, the books, the videogames, and the cartoons all the more of a product push.

13 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

What’s more likely?

A.) The First Order has discovered a way to track ships through hyperspace. A technology so rare few people even believe it exists.

B.) There’s a mole on board one of the ships who fed the exit coordinates to the FO with a long range communication device.

I agree that (B) is far more likely, which is why it's weird that the characters assume that (A) is the case. Rose, Finn, and Poe ignore the inference to the best explanation (B) and instead Rose theoretically reverse engineers the existence of (A). And not only that, but she deduces it's theoretical existence with such detail that she knows (1) where it would be on a ship, (2) that it could only work on one ship at a time, and (3) how it could be deactivated without anyone noticing a glitch in it's function. This would be an impressive and near implausible set of deductions if offered up by someone like Lt. Commander Data with his incomparably powerful neural network processors and his data banks of information and his time spent at Starfleet Academy formally studying theoretical physics and advanced engineering. Yet here we have it spouted off by a low-level Alliance technician, not some Professor of Theoretical Engineering. And she and the other characters are so confident in (B), which it turns out they are right about, that even despite (A) being the far more plausible explanation you'd expect characters to hold they never even think about it. In fact, for the good first chunk of the film I as the viewer was convinced Rose was an Imperial Spy/Informant, and that she was making up the whole incredibly-specific story about the tracking-tech to keep the Alliance off of her case and to keep them from trying any more jumps. Which added a darker undertone to why she wasn't letting anyone evacuate (read: escape). But no, her Divine Deduction of this tech and all of its operation specifications was, apparently, accurate...


We might think that Holdo suspected a mole was aboard and hence her distrust of Poe, but she never took any actions to address that. Unless you start a mole hunt or start vetting people or try and entrap the mole, your plan to "sneak down to Crait and wait for help" will just be spoiled by the mole when you try it, so would be as doomed to failure as executing another hyperjump with a mole onboard. Also, if you suspected Poe of being a mole, you could also feed him a false plan or tell him in vague terms "don't worry, we have a plan," if you're worried about morale. Though if you thought he was a mole, you'd probably also put him under more surveillance.

That being said, a lot about TLJ bothered me, but Holdo not telling Poe she had a plan wasn't one of them. I viewed that as a pulling of rank, as a way to further chastize Poe for his insubordination by telling him to sit down and shut up. It's a weird move for morale, but when you're dealing with a hotshot insubordinate who just killed your bomber wing, maybe you want to make a bit of an example out of them, especially if you want your reputation among your troops to be that of a hardass.

... though, about that "fleet killer" dreadnought... if it's cannons take so long to recharge, WHY did they shoot the evacuated base first and then wait to recharge so they could shoot the fleet? Why not shoot the fleet first, then recharge and shoot the stationary base... even if you don't believe that the base is fully evacuated... like it's not going anywhere... what's the rush? Gosh, the First Order are beyond incompetent. I feel like by Episode 9 Hux is just gonna have Elmer Fudd-esque mannerisms. "I'M GONNA GET THAT WASCALLY WESISTANCE! FIRE EVA-WEETHING!"

Stopping by again with 2 questions about squadrons for a hypothetical Resistance faction for Armada:

1) Are the Resistance Transports used to get to Crait small enough to be squadrons?

2) If they are small enough, would a Resistance Transport with Intel and Relay 3 but no attack dice be any good.

1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I agree that (B) is far more likely, which is why it's weird that the characters assume that (A) is the case. Rose, Finn, and Poe ignore the inference to the best explanation (B) and instead Rose theoretically reverse engineers the existence of (A). And not only that, but she deduces it's theoretical existence with such detail that she knows (1) where it would be on a ship, (2) that it could only work on one ship at a time, and (3) how it could be deactivated without anyone noticing a glitch in it's function. This would be an impressive and near implausible set of deductions if offered up by someone like Lt. Commander Data with his incomparably powerful neural network processors and his data banks of information and his time spent at Starfleet Academy formally studying theoretical physics and advanced engineering. Yet here we have it spouted off by a low-level Alliance technician, not some Professor of Theoretical Engineering. And she and the other characters are so confident in (B), which it turns out they are right about, even despite (A) is the far more plausible explanation you'd expect characters to hold. In fact, for the good first chunk of the film I was a bit convinced Rose was an Imperial Spy/Informant, and that she was making up the whole incredibly-specific story about the tracking-tech to keep the Alliance off of her case. Which added a darker undertone to why she wasn't letting anyone evacuate (read: escape). But no, her Divine Deduction of this tech and all of its operation specifications was, apparently, accurate...

Actually I agree with this. The fact that they reverse engineered an active tracker (which if I'm correct about the novelization isn't even what they used, the FO had a super-SUPER computer that was in some sort of hyperspace manipulator *If I'm understanding it right* that calculated all the possible destinations at the ships' last heading and selected the most likely. It was Hux's design. ) and went off that. But that means they they were wrong from the start which I think may have been intentional to show how reckless Poe was being. No one ever had any real confirmation about how they were tracked. (Which is what leads me to think they had a mole hunt under way but kept it quiet, which is why the viewer may not have seen it). Either way. Agreed this area irked me, but I also understand how quick people jump to conclusions... so it's believable that they'd reverse engineer a situation that wasn't true and act on it.

8 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

We might think that Holdo suspected a mole was aboard and hence her distrust of Poe, but she never took any actions to address that. Unless you start a mole hunt or start vetting people or try and entrap the mole, your plan to "sneak down to Crait and wait for help" will just be spoiled by the mole when you try it, so would be as doomed to failure as executing another hyperjump with a mole onboard. Also, if you suspected Poe of being a mole, you would either feed him a false plan or tell him in vague terms "don't worry, we have a plan."

Like I said, I think she may have. And I don't think Poe was suspect so much as just hot headed.... she knew he might let something slip, and more importantly, to uphold military command she had to be firm with him. You have to remember Poe ignored a direct order from Leia to return to base. A decision that got people killed. He was lucky he only got demoted. I think the reason they went ahead with the plan is a mole would have been obvious on board a transport, and if the mole didn't know the plan until they got on the transports, they'd have had no choice but do it there or not at all. Those things were tiny. Once on Crait the base was so dug in that the only way to get a signal out would be through the transmitter they used to try to call for help. I think Holdo could have put that together herself. It's reasonable to think a tactician held to her caliber could come up with that anyways.

14 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

.. though, about that "fleet killer" dreadnought... if it's cannons take so long to recharge, WHY did they shoot the evacuated base first and then wait to recharge so they could shoot the fleet? Why not shoot the fleet first, then recharge and shoot the stationary base... even if you don't believe that the base is fully evacuated... like it's not going anywhere... what's the rush? Gosh, the First Order are beyond incompetent. I feel like by Episode 9 Hux is just gonna have Elmer Fudd-esque mannerisms. "I'M GONNA GET THAT WASCALLY WESISTANCE! FIRE EVA-WEETHING!"

This was very intentional.

The leadership of the FO, especially Imperial remnants are constantly at odds with Hux. They know he's not fit to lead. They hate him for his grand gestures, but none of them are willing to cross Snoke to disobey the orders he gives. The Novelization puts the reader into Captain Cannady's shoes and goes through his distaste for how things were done by the Hux. He had told the flight controlers to have the fighters prep to launch before his dreadnought was even on scene, and got flack for it from Hux. His line in the movie about "launching fighters 5 bloody minutes ago" was a direct result of that rebuke from Hux before they arrived.

I think this is a bit of world building that will make sense it IX.

My prediction for IX is that Hux is going to try to turn the FO on force users in general. Hux holds force users as a waste of effort and holds Kylo and even Snoke in contempt for ruining the efforts of those who advance technology like himself. I think part of the FO's downfall is going to be the imperial remnant splitting off from the FO refusing to take orders from such a bad tactician.

9 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

Stopping by again with 2 questions about squadrons for a hypothetical Resistance faction for Armada:

1) Are the Resistance Transports used to get to Crait small enough to be squadrons?

2) If they are small enough, would a Resistance Transport with Intel and Relay 3 but no attack dice be any good.

I think a better candidate would be the Resistance troop transports from TFA. At least does have weapons and would be able to contribute in combat.

13 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

Stopping by again with 2 questions about squadrons for a hypothetical Resistance faction for Armada:

1) Are the Resistance Transports used to get to Crait small enough to be squadrons?

2) If they are small enough, would a Resistance Transport with Intel and Relay 3 but no attack dice be any good.

Those are U-Something-Something orbital load lifters. At only 22m, they are about 2/3 as long as the Falcon , so definitely squadron sized.

The Resistance Transport in TFA that Leia is on is about as a big as a B-Wing (and made from some cobbled B-Wing parts).

The Transport Pod Finn and Rose take to Canto Bight is about as a big as an A-Wing, so again Squadron sized for sure.

6 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Those are U-Something-Something orbital load lifters. At only 22m, they are about 2/3 as long as the Falcon , so definitely squadron sized.

The Resistance Transport in TFA that Leia is on is about as a big as a B-Wing (and made from some cobbled B-Wing parts).

The Transport Pod Finn and Rose take to Canto Bight is about as a big as an A-Wing, so again Squadron sized for sure.

Thanks for the sizing info. Turns out the U-55 cloaks, so it could get that for survivability. Possibly.

9 minutes ago, Wraithdt said:

I think a better candidate would be the Resistance troop transports from TFA. At least does have weapons and would be able to contribute in combat.

I personally don't like the appearance of the TFA Resistance Transport and anything with Intel + Relay 3 shouldn't be able to shoot or it's point cost would skyrocket... in my opinion.

Call the FBI. We’ve been hijacked!

On March 27, 2018 at 4:28 PM, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well, a few reasons make that more palatable. We know that the Rebellion consisted of multiple cells (per Rebels ), so it's not necessarily the entirety of the Rebellion that was Yavin.

Why would the Resistance be structured differently? Nothin else is different about the Resistance.

Leia would most likely, and if this were real, absolutely use the same structure of multiple cells if thats what brought down the Empire.

Not to mention the Last Jedi confirmed there were other cells or at least other groups with militaries. Who do you think they were calling for help? A Wookie in a space SUV to run the FO blockade and pick them up? Okay that's what happened but that's not who they were calling. They may not have come to their aid in this instance but they're still out there.

This is both the failure of the movie and people's imaginations to fulfill the true scope and size of a galaxy.

The Clone Wars wasn't just six battles. The Galactic Civil War wasn't just five battles (Scarif, Yavin, Hoth, Endor, and Jakku), it was thousands if not tens of thousands of engagements of varying size. There were 25,000 thousand ISDs and the millions of other vessels in the Imperial navy. We only ever see fifty of those in the OT.

The movies show us a focused vision, guiding us through the most significant, decisive events of the war pertinent to our characters, we don't get the logistics, we never did in any of the movies. Just like Band of Brothers, although better, doesn't show us anything but a focused glimpse of the Second World War, that doesn't mean there weren't tens of millions of people waging desperate battles everywhere else in Europe and the Pacific.

What we know is the Resistance Fleet in TLJ is the command fleet, the equivalent of Yavin. There are most certainly others and we're going to see them in episode IX just like how we didn't see the bombers and A-Wings from TLJ in the attack on Starkiller Base.

Did we get crap world building? Depends, given its no worse then the OT. The Prequels are the only movies to show us the galaxy and give us an idea of what universe we're in.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

JJ gives us no such answers in TFA, and RJ takes the subversive strategy of also giving us no answers while telling us that we shouldn't care, we should kill off the past of Star Wars, and that the struggles of Good and Evil and Light and Dark at the core of the PT and OT are futile and pointless , as per jaded Luke's revelations about how the Force actively interferes and balances light against dark and dark against light.

It is still very much Good vs Evil but its no longer a binary for the struggle between Light and Dark . The Good is now represented by balance, Evil by imbalance. The Sith were the hallmarks of great imbalance because they make use of the dark side of the force to achieve power and dominance. The Jedi are supposed to represent balance but in the prequels they were too mired in politics that they lost sight of their true purpose. Its has also been implied that the early Jedi had a more balanced understanding of the force, accepting both its light and dark aspects and of which the later Jedi moved away from for some reason.

We are still seeing this struggle play out but there’s definitely an end game were Good truimphs over Evil, just not by Light defeating Dark.

The Last Jedi didn't "Kill the Past!" that is such a ridiculous and simplistic interpretation of the film.

Kylo Ren is the proponent of sweeping away the past by killing it if has to. But he's the villain, we aren't meant to agree with him.

Rey is all about worshiping the past at first and by meeting Luke is tempered to a healthy respect for the reality of the past rather then blind worship.

She rejects Kylo's offer thus choosing to honor what came before and not destroy it.

The Last Jedi is all about honoring the past but not to the point the weight of the past becomes a burden on the future generations from creating a future for themselves. It is a response to the Force Awakens essentially worshiping the OT so much it became a bland copy rather then innovative.

__________________________________

I'm glad we're getting more away from the whole binary, evil versus good of the EU.

It created the same story repeatedly with each generation. I was extremely disappointed to see that fifty years later there was a new sith order and galactic civil war.

4 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I agree that (B) is far more likely, which is why it's weird that the characters assume that (A) is the case. Rose, Finn, and Poe ignore the inference to the best explanation (B) and instead Rose theoretically reverse engineers the existence of (A). And not only that, but she deduces it's theoretical existence with such detail that she knows (1) where it would be on a ship, (2) that it could only work on one ship at a time, and (3) how it could be deactivated without anyone noticing a glitch in it's function. This would be an impressive and near implausible set of deductions if offered up by someone like Lt. Commander Data with his incomparably powerful neural network processors and his data banks of information and his time spent at Starfleet Academy formally studying theoretical physics and advanced engineering. Yet here we have it spouted off by a low-level Alliance technician, not some Professor of Theoretical Engineering. And she and the other characters are so confident in (B), which it turns out they are right about, that even despite (A) being the far more plausible explanation you'd expect characters to hold they never even think about it. In fact, for the good first chunk of the film I as the viewer was convinced Rose was an Imperial Spy/Informant, and that she was making up the whole incredibly-specific story about the tracking-tech to keep the Alliance off of her case and to keep them from trying any more jumps. Which added a darker undertone to why she wasn't letting anyone evacuate (read: escape). But no, her Divine Deduction of this tech and all of its operation specifications was, apparently, accurate...

We might think that Holdo suspected a mole was aboard and hence her distrust of Poe, but she never took any actions to address that. Unless you start a mole hunt or start vetting people or try and entrap the mole, your plan to "sneak down to Crait and wait for help" will just be spoiled by the mole when you try it, so would be as doomed to failure as executing another hyperjump with a mole onboard. Also, if you suspected Poe of being a mole, you could also feed him a false plan or tell him in vague terms "don't worry, we have a plan," if you're worried about morale. Though if you thought he was a mole, you'd probably also put him under more surveillance.

For a while I thought one could piece together a theory that Holdo was the First Order traitor. After all, why not? She's in a position of power, she has enough knowledge to know that the fight against the First Order is futile... she may have cut a deal with the First Order to spare herself and Leia if they were captured and allow the core leadership of the Resistance to die. Leia would never forgive her, but Holdo would try to convince her dear friend leia that the First Order is not the Empire, it is impossible to resist them, and this was best for everyone blah blah.... it's a proposition Leia would never accept, but since we know very little about the relationship between Holdo and Leia, I can believe in that naiveté our of Holdo...

In fact I remember thinking how much better the story would have been if Hux's line referenced a traitor in the fleet.

And... for this hyperspace tracking thingamajig... I forget, did anyone in the First Order reference the device directly? Or is this something that Rose imagined it could be? It would be hilarious if what Rose thought was a hyperspace tracker was nothing more than the power breaker for the laundry rooms they just pilfered the uniforms from, and this entire wild goose chase served for nothing. Even more if Holdo turned out to be the traitor after all, feeding information to the First Order.

2 hours ago, Forresto said:

[blurb]

Not to mention the Last Jedi confirmed there were other cells or at least other groups with militaries. Who do you think they were calling for help? A Wookie in a space SUV to run the FO blockade and pick them up? Okay that's what happened but that's not who they were calling. They may not have come to their aid in this instance but they're still out there.

This is both the failure of the movie and people's imaginations to fulfill the true scope and size of a galaxy.

The Clone Wars wasn't just six battles. The Galactic Civil War wasn't just five battles (Scarif, Yavin, Hoth, Endor, and Jakku), it was thousands if not tens of thousands of engagements of varying size. There were 25,000 thousand ISDs and the millions of other vessels in the Imperial navy. We only ever see fifty of those in the OT.

[blurb]

This is how I feel about a majority of the star wars movies and that is why I personally love them. They are the stories of The Star Wars, as in these large scale conflicts that involved masses of people and stuff. The issue isn't that it doesn't explore the entire war (as that would be, WAY longer movies in my opinion) its that they focus on one set of actors inside of this conflict. In 1-3 we see that the republic has become a beuracratic mess that Palpatine was able to manipulate into a war that ended in him becoming the emperor and destroying the Jedi order. Then in 4-6 we have the rebels finally getting back at the empire. The rebel leadership was around during the fall of the republic. They likely knew what actually happened, how the empire rose, the lies about the Jedi. They are taking back their lives from the oppressive empire. Now in this section of the story we see that the new republic became, too much like the old republic. It was bogged down in unnecessary bureaucracy, it didn't want to have a standing army because it didn't want to be seen as the Empire was, and they didn't want to bring themselves into a conflict with the First Order. These issues compounded, allowed the first order to rise and become a threat to the Republic.

I think the failing of the new movies, is that it doesn't explain those parts very well. The smaller background points that lead to whats happening now arn't mentioned. So when you watch the movies standalone, with no idea that's what is meant to be happening, then you don't understand what they are going for. Those other cells of resistance, and the allies of Leia's... they are fighting for their lives as well most likely. The First Order must have known it couldn't just remove the republic's capital (ep 7, starkiller base did that) and then destroy the resistance that they are chasing down in 8... we likely see a portion of the First Order, the rest is engaging resistance forces throughout the republic.

I for one love the new movies.

-7 is a call back to the OT which was great,

- 8 is two great movies put together that is about moving past blind following of ideals. Poe moves past the idea that Holdo has no idea what she is doing. Rey moves past her blind faith of Luke. Luke gets over himself. Finn gets what he needed to be fighting for (because his motivations were a bit, not, existent yet.). I thought it was great.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless, I think the new ships would be nice to have, but they are massive compared to the ones we have. Squadrons, sure I could see those making their way into the game, maybe we'll see something but I doubt it due to a sizing thing. Unless they release HUGE ships... but, those would have to be easily 200 points. They would be, well, HUGE. While it would be a fun for casual play or stuff, they would just have to be pricey items both in game, and out.

2 hours ago, Norsehound said:

And... for this hyperspace tracking thingamajig... I forget, did anyone in the First Order reference the device directly?

I think Hux or someone else mentions that they are tracking the fleet and they cannot escape, but I could be wrong about that.

I know for sure Rogue One's data storage files include something about a "hyperspace tracking" project as Jyn flips through files.

10 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

My prediction for IX is that Hux is going to try to turn the FO on force users in general. Hux holds force users as a waste of effort and holds Kylo and even Snoke in contempt for ruining the efforts of those who advance technology like himself. I think part of the FO's downfall is going to be the imperial remnant splitting off from the FO refusing to take orders from such a bad tactician.

I had some similar thoughts. I say this as someone who has not read any of the aftermath books or really consumed much of the media around the new trilogy, so I hope someone here can tell me more about the FO's structure, particularly the non military side of it. I am thinking that the First Order will self implode pretty quickly without Snoke, just because I don't see how they plan to (or can) govern the galaxy. Hux is an incompetent general (at best). Kylo seems more like Snokes/The FO's hired gun, goes into an area and deals with a threat, not necessarily commanding a force them while doing it. Not folks who I can see effectively controlling systems, or politics, or really any function of a government aside from the military.

The Emperor, was a master at playing the long game and had the governing systems of the old republic in place to help him govern and keep control (and even he needed or at least used the bureaucracy of the senate to help hold power until he had the Death Star).

Fear may keep the local systems in line, but from what I have gathered the FO took over the galaxy in a blitz attack, now that any long term thinkers are not in a place of power, how are they gonna keep the troops feed and the power on?

The Resistance may just need to hide for a couple of years and let it implode.

10 hours ago, Dwarf King said:

I had some similar thoughts. I say this as someone who has not read any of the aftermath books or really consumed much of the media around the new trilogy, so I hope someone here can tell me more about the FO's structure, particularly the non military side of it. I am thinking that the First Order will self implode pretty quickly without Snoke, just because I don't see how they plan to (or can) govern the galaxy. Hux is an incompetent general (at best). Kylo seems more like Snokes/The FO's hired gun, goes into an area and deals with a threat, not necessarily commanding a force them while doing it. Not folks who I can see effectively controlling systems, or politics, or really any function of a government aside from the military.

The Emperor, was a master at playing the long game and had the governing systems of the old republic in place to help him govern and keep control (and even he needed or at least used the bureaucracy of the senate to help hold power until he had the Death Star).

Fear may keep the local systems in line, but from what I have gathered the FO took over the galaxy in a blitz attack, now that any long term thinkers are not in a place of power, how are they gonna keep the troops feed and the power on?

The Resistance may just need to hide for a couple of years and let it implode.

Very true. With the power struggle between Hux and Kylo, it's going to be difficult for either one to effectively lead. Kylo is an emotion torn mess, not like Snoke at all, and Hux really just wants to burn **** down.

What I think we may see is the FO simply maintaining the obey or die tactics we've seen so far. They aren't like the empire, they're zealots I don't see them settling down. At best I figure the hunt for Rey and the force sensitives around the galaxy may be enough to bind them together long enough for the resistance to tear them down lol

I can see what you mean about the resistance. It certainly won't be hard to convince people the FO is murderous.

15 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I think Hux or someone else mentions that they are tracking the fleet and they cannot escape, but I could be wrong about that.

I know for sure Rogue One's data storage files include something about a "hyperspace tracking" project as Jyn flips through files.

17 hours ago, Norsehound said:

And... for this hyperspace tracking thingamajig... I forget, did anyone in the First Order reference the device directly?

"tied on the end of a string"

In the novelization Hux references the device directly, but it's not an "active tracker"


From the TLJ novelization:

"You say you can track the Resistance fleet even after its escape to hyperspace-something no military force in galactic history has been able to do," Snoke said, and Hux relaxed. Now the supreme leader was in Hux's arena.

"No military force in galactic history had access to the technology we have created, Supreme Leader."

"The Resistance fleet will be on the other side of the galaxy by now" Snoke said. "In any of a billion star systems. The prospect of checking them all makes me weary General."

"We need not check them all, Supreme Leader. Our tracking system's computer network contains millennia worth of data: every after-action report from Imperial history, as well as many from the Republic's Judicial Forces and Planetary security Forces. It contains astrogation reports, briefings from scouts and commercial guilds, Separatist intel-"

"A full inventory would be tedious," rumbled Snoke.

Hux dipped his chin. "Of course, Supreme Leader."

"Our sensors pinpoint the target's last known trajectory, and tracking control analyzes it against our data sets. Trillions of potential destinations are sifted and reduced to hundreds, then dozens, and finally one."

"So why are we not headed to that lone destination?" Snoke asked.

"We are cross-checking the results of our initial analysis, Supreme Leader, " Hux said. "The final calculations should be complete within minutes."

Snoke leaned back in his throne, considering that. His guards stood unmoving in their imprisoning red armor. Behind him, the alien navigators carried on their inscrutable work.

"So your solution to this ancient problem is no conceptual breakthrough," Snoke said. "Your invention is a product not of genius, but brute force."

"Brute force is underrated, Supreme Leader," Hux said with a smile. "The New Republic's home fleet is destroyed, and its surviving senators have dissolved the remaining task forces to protect their home worlds. Their division makes them defenseless. No power in the galaxy can stand against us, Supreme Leader."

END QUOTE


So there's definitely a device but it doesn't sound like "active tracking" like Rose and Finn had figured.

43 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

From the TLJ novelization:

"You say you can track the Resistance fleet even after its escape to hyperspace-something no military force in galactic history has been able to do," Snoke said, and Hux relaxed. Now the supreme leader was in Hux's arena.

"No military force in galactic history had access to the technology we have created, Supreme Leader."

"The Resistance fleet will be on the other side of the galaxy by now" Snoke said. "In any of a billion star systems. The prospect of checking them all makes me weary General."

"We need not check them all, Supreme Leader. Our tracking system's computer network contains millennia worth of data: every after-action report from Imperial history, as well as many from the Republic's Judicial Forces and Planetary security Forces. It contains astrogation reports, briefings from scouts and commercial guilds, Separatist intel-"

"A full inventory would be tedious," rumbled Snoke.

Hux dipped his chin. "Of course, Supreme Leader."

"Our sensors pinpoint the target's last known trajectory, and tracking control analyzes it against our data sets. Trillions of potential destinations are sifted and reduced to hundreds, then dozens, and finally one."

"So why are we not headed to that lone destination?" Snoke asked.

"We are cross-checking the results of our initial analysis, Supreme Leader, " Hux said. "The final calculations should be complete within minutes."

Snoke leaned back in his throne, considering that. His guards stood unmoving in their imprisoning red armor. Behind him, the alien navigators carried on their inscrutable work.

"So your solution to this ancient problem is no conceptual breakthrough," Snoke said. "Your invention is a product not of genius, but brute force."

"Brute force is underrated, Supreme Leader," Hux said with a smile. "The New Republic's home fleet is destroyed, and its surviving senators have dissolved the remaining task forces to protect their home worlds. Their division makes them defenseless. No power in the galaxy can stand against us, Supreme Leader."

Thank you for this. This is exactly the sort of stage-setting I wish the movies had given us more of, as it really would help flush out Snoke, Hux, and the First Order generally. And it could have been done with a few very short scenes sprinkled around the two films, or even a better opening crawl in either film.

The implication here could also be that the First Order fleet isn't massive and huge (the implication of the movies), but rather maybe they are so technologically advanced that their relatively meager forces have been securing victories against larger navies. The whole "we have access, thanks to Palpatine, to all the data records of so many civilizations and organizations" would have been an interesting point to emphasize.

Also I really like the part about the (surviving?) Senators breaking up the New Republic security fleets and taking their ships back to their own systems for protection. That little bit could explain so much why the First Order is able to waltz around the galaxy unopposed, as long as they don't tread on the systems with the largest or most competent security fleets. Maybe even a crude armistice could have been signed by the First Order and the war-wary Senators, a sort of "appeasement" strategy.

There would still be the issues of the movies making Hux (and by extension the First Order) look like completely bumbling morons, rather than a fierce leader who prioritizes knowledge, information, and innovation above all else (which could have been interesting, and could have explored more nuanced issues of "forbidden knowledge" or the risk of grave technological consequences/risks). Palpatine, mostly, was a "people person." He used the Force and his social graces to manipulate people, to turn them against their own best interest, to emotionally manipulate them, and to control them. And he becomes blinded by his obsession of manipulating Luke to the Dark Side. Hux could have been an interesting juxtaposition to this, far less worried about the subtleties of social coercion and far more focused on things rather than people. Technology will be his means to power, not influence and social control.


All of this could have played so well and made the New Trilogy profoundly more interesting and more unique than it feels right now. Alas.

Just now, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Thank you for this. This is exactly the sort of stage-setting I wish the movies had given us more of, as it really would help flush out Snoke, Hux, and the First Order generally. And it could have been done with a few very short scenes sprinkled around the two films, or even a better opening crawl in either film.

The implication here could also be that the First Order fleet isn't massive and huge (the implication of the movies), but rather maybe they are so technologically advanced that their relatively meager forces have been securing victories against larger navies. The whole "we have access, thanks to Palpatine, to all the data records of so many civilizations and organizations" would have been an interesting point to emphasize.

Also I really like the part about the (surviving?) Senators breaking up the New Republic security fleets and taking their ships back to their own systems for protection. That little bit could explain so much why the First Order is able to waltz around the galaxy unopposed, as long as they don't tread on the systems with the largest or most competent security fleets. Maybe even a crude armistice could have been signed by the First Order and the war-wary Senators, a sort of "appeasement" strategy.

There would still be the issues of the movies making Hux (and by extension the First Order) look like completely bumbling morons, rather than a fierce leader who prioritizes knowledge, information, and innovation above all else (which could have been interesting, and could have explored in a more nuanced issues of "forbidden knowledge" or the risk of grave technological consequences). Palpatine, mostly, was a "people person." He used the Force and his social graces to manipulate people, to turn them against their own best interest, to emotionally manipulate them, and to control them. And he becomes blinded and obsessive by manipulating Luke to the Dark Side. Hux could have been an interesting juxtaposition to this, far less worried about the subtleties of social coercion and far more focused on things rather than people. Technology will be his means to power, not influence and social control.


All of this could have played so well and made the New Trilogy profoundly more interesting and more unique than it feels right now. Alas.

Like I said in my first reply to you, it's all about how much they could fit in the movie... there's just not enough time. There are SO MANY extra scenes like this in the novel it really flushes out TLJ.