31 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

So as much as we moan about red dice creep, the amount of defensive options out their are just as disgusting. I mean, throw in Fenn's ability prior to that (with hotshot) and you MUST roll six natural hits to score ONE lasting damage against the above list. Without modifiers. Then do it again the next turn or she will regenerate it anyway.

...the problem with that argument is that you're comparing one ship's attack to a fully-tanked Norra with support from Lowricck and Fenn. It's one vs three, using all the once per turn abilities of all three ships. Of course it should be effective.

Where the combo breaks is when you focus fire on Norra, with multiple ships or multiple attacks. 5 focused Kihraxz or Strikers will force plenty of damage through on Norra, as will a Z95 missile strike, 3 TIE/D's or any of a number of swarm/miniswarm builds.

The problem isn't solely due to ultra-defensive builds or red dice creep, it's what people are taking to fight them with. If you're flying a two or three ship list without Gunner effects or double taps, then yeah, you're going to have a tough day if you run up against a super defensive tank. If you lose a ship early before you get some meaningful damage in, then you're also going to have an uphill battle. Hyperdefensive builds are something you need to consider at the squad building stage - if your list hasn't got a plan to deal with them, then you're setting yourself up to fail.

7 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...the problem with that argument is that you're comparing one ship's attack to a fully-tanked Norra with support from Lowricck and Fenn. It's one vs three, using all the once per turn abilities of all three ships. Of course it should be effective.

Where the combo breaks is when you focus fire on Norra, with multiple ships or multiple attacks. 5 focused Kihraxz or Strikers will force plenty of damage through on Norra, as will a Z95 missile strike, 3 TIE/D's or any of a number of swarm/miniswarm builds.

The problem isn't solely due to ultra-defensive builds or red dice creep, it's what people are taking to fight them with. If you're flying a two or three ship list without Gunner effects or double taps, then yeah, you're going to have a tough day if you run up against a super defensive tank. If you lose a ship early before you get some meaningful damage in, then you're also going to have an uphill battle. Hyperdefensive builds are something you need to consider at the squad building stage - if your list hasn't got a plan to deal with them, then you're setting yourself up to fail.

True but Norra does the majority on her own:

" Calls C3PO "0" and rolls a focus.
Spends target lock to add a focus.
Spends a focus token for three total evades.
Uses R2-D2 to regen the one damage that went through"

That's three "evades" a turn if someone takes shots at her directly. Assuming a one on one situation, that's pretty brutal.

A defender's natural green dice will fail before that does, that was the point I was (badly) trying to make.

But I agree, you need tools to be able to handle hyper Armour, but what tools can a Defender take against such tactics?

TIE/D + Ruthlessness.

2 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

But I agree, you need tools to be able to handle hyper Armour, but what tools can a Defender take against such tactics?

TIE/D + Ruthlessness.

If you could fit three TIE/D with Ruthlessness in a single list I'd be a happy man. But swarms would be dead, dead forever, so it's probably just as well all things considered.

Now, a single Ruthless Ion TIE/D with support, that's a different matter. But what would be the support?

Is Tractor Beam not an unreasonable answer? Shoot 1st, reduce Agi to 0, no defence roll for her to mod on the follow up fire from everything else you pointed at her. Pop.

Oh, I suppose she dodges the Tractor... hmm. Bring 3?

34 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Is Tractor Beam not an unreasonable answer? Shoot 1st, reduce Agi to 0, no defence roll for her to mod on the follow up fire from everything else you pointed at her. Pop.

Oh, I suppose she dodges the Tractor... hmm. Bring 3?

Nope since it does no damage and is literally, utterly worthless in some matchups (hi, ghost!)

The Tie/D is also very expensive and frail so packing such a niche weapon is a huge gamble on whether or not it'll do anything to merit its cost

10 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Nope since it does no damage and is literally, utterly worthless in some matchups (hi, ghost!)

The Tie/D is also very expensive and frail so packing such a niche weapon is a huge gamble on whether or not it'll do anything to merit its cost

Not to mention it slaps a big fat target on its back. I was running a Vessery/TieD w/ Ruthlessness for a bit . It was effective on maybe 50% of the lists out there, since there are so many 2 ship builds these days. Not to mention one has to be very careful not to fly too close to the target.

4 minutes ago, Malabor said:

Not to mention it slaps a big fat target on its back. I was running a Vessery/TieD w/ Ruthlessness for a bit . It was effective on maybe 50% of the lists out there, since there are so many 2 ship builds these days. Not to mention one has to be very careful not to fly too close to the target.

Isnt ruthlessness "other than yourself"? Or do you mean a wingmate I guess

a wingmate.

24 minutes ago, Malabor said:

Not to mention it slaps a big fat target on its back. I was running a Vessery/TieD w/ Ruthlessness for a bit . It was effective on maybe 50% of the lists out there, since there are so many 2 ship builds these days. Not to mention one has to be very careful not to fly too close to the target.

Oh, fair enough. I was thinking more specifically, TieD v Norra.

I do prefer the value of the x7 and only play the D for entertainment.

Tractor has been surprisingly effective in some games and against some targets. But yeah, very niche, not at all TAC.

Edit. Kind of a misquote. @ficklegreendice

12 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

do prefer the value of the x7 and only play the D for entertainment.

Yeah, I've found that D title does work "some" times. Just not consistently enough for me to take it too serious. I REALLY want it to work, but alas, most of the time they just die. x7's on the other hand, can be pretty resilient. Unless stacked up against tons of TLT (looking at you, Ghost/Fenn).

21 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Oh, fair enough. I was thinking more specifically, TieD v Norra.

I do prefer the value of the x7 and only play the D for entertainment.

Tractor has been surprisingly effective in some games and against some targets. But yeah, very niche, not at all TAC.

Edit. Kind of a misquote. @ficklegreendice

Not much point planning for such a narrow matchup

Besides, that specific case only illustrates the vast superiority of harpoon bearing ships which are cheaper, hit harder, and splash

TIE/Ds are fun, but eh I've personally found little enjoyment in something so niche that its effectiveness hinges less on how it plays and more on what your opponent brings

Now ion Ds are a jolly good time (also better against Norra and anything with r2d2 or bombs). Their half effectiveness v large bases is counterbalanced by how much more ionization hurts them when it triggers

Hoping that a reaper palp or hux will make them less flimsy and therefore more palatable

I'll be the voice of dissension, and say that I find TIE/Ds to be far more valuable than x7s. Sure, a TIE/D may fold after a single turn of focused fire shooting, but so can an x7. At least the TIE/Ds can push more damage through in the time they have on the board, and the control aspects of the cannons they use are extremely valuable. Tractor beam usually works wonders on low agility ships, and ions can be nasty, even if all they do is force your opponent to spend a focus or evade token trying to avoid them.

You can get two Glaives with TIE/D Ruthless and Ion Cannons backed up with a Scimitar Shuttle packing Fleet Officer and MkII engines.

Thats double ion and four procs of Ruthless. That could beat down a Dash .. that could even kill a Fenn in a Fenn Ghost list in two turns without actually shooting Fenn .. and then you have a perma ionised Ghost.

Hmm....

How does it handle jank lists that make up the bottom and mid cards ? Or is this one of those lists? !

Ha ha

9 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

If you could fit three TIE/D with Ruthlessness in a single list I'd be a happy man. But swarms would be dead, dead forever, so it's probably just as well all things considered.

Now, a single Ruthless Ion TIE/D with support, that's a different matter. But what would be the support?

I'm bringing something like this to a tournament this weekend. Countess Ryad and Glaive Squad Pilot, both with Ruthlessness. Countess gets the Ion Cannon and Glaive gets the Tractor Beam. They are supported by a Scimitar Squad Tie Bomber with Fleet Officer and Systems Officer. My goals for the tournament are as follows:

Kill a ship (or two) with the "free" damage from Ruthlessness.

Roll a Ghost's support shuttle to range one and trigger more free damage.

Sow dissent and horror in players who haven't seen Ruthlessness in awhile.

Killed a friend's Resistance Bomber a few weeks ago solely with Ruthlessness and felt like...

5 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

You can get two Glaives with TIE/D Ruthless and Ion Cannons backed up with a Scimitar Shuttle packing Fleet Officer and MkII engines.

Thats double ion and four procs of Ruthless. That could beat down a Dash .. that could even kill a Fenn in a Fenn Ghost list in two turns without actually shooting Fenn .. and then you have a perma ionised Ghost.

Hmm....

How does it handle jank lists that make up the bottom and mid cards ? Or is this one of those lists? !

Ha ha

Tried that against three Resistance Bombers. It was a very fun match (see gif above).

21 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Now ion Ds are a jolly good time (also better against Norra and anything with r2d2 or bombs). Their half effectiveness v large bases is counterbalanced by how much more ionization hurts them when it triggers

Agreed. I've thought of maybe running some ion D's, just not sure what to setup to use yet. Might have to wait until that Reaper comes out...

Something like this?:

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)
Ruthlessness (3)
Tractor Beam (1)
TIE/D (0)

Countess Ryad (34)
Ruthlessness (3)

Ion Cannon (3)

TIE/D (0)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Courier Droid (0)
Fleet Officer (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE Shuttle (0)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

If going tie/d, I have a hard time using anyone before vessery

Mods are love, mods are life

Just a question of finding LRS or FCS support. Silencers, SF, and gunboats are all fine

this can already be a thing:

can only get better with the reaper, especially if it lets you afford silencer Title

I can dig that list @ficklegreendice but now we're down to only one Defender/D in the list. Which is fine I suppose...

If you have double-Ds you need a lot more...support, let's say

the Silencer is fairly independent and more durable than the Defender provided thrusters are triggering. I don't think you really need to double up on Ions even if the threat to large bases is hilarious

plus even the Delta-D is 33 points

2 hours ago, Malabor said:

Something like this?:

Glaive Squadron Pilot (34)
Ruthlessness (3)
Tractor Beam (1)
TIE/D (0)

Countess Ryad (34)
Ruthlessness (3)

Ion Cannon (3)

TIE/D (0)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)
Courier Droid (0)
Fleet Officer (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE Shuttle (0)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Might as well throw a Systems Officer on the shuttle for a possible free target lock for one of the Defenders (unless you're bidding for initiative).

I always found it wasn't the lack of evade that made D < X7 but the points cost. We know defenders were over costed and one title helps that, the other doesn't.

I love some ion cannon double tap but is it worth effectively 5 more points than an X7. I generally conclude no.

On 3/28/2018 at 3:21 PM, wurms said:

Vessery w/ Swarm Leader, x7

Ryad w/ Ptl,mkii,x7

Delta w/ x7

Same person who won, flew same list last year at regionals and got 2nd.

Never underestimate a player who looks a little bit behind on the meta... but who has been flying the same ships for years.

For all the games modern problems, skill and familiarity with a list can pay dividends of its own.

QD Vess OL (99/100)
====================
TIE/SF Fighter: Quickdraw (29 + 6)
+ Adaptability (0)
+ Fire Control System (2)
+ Advanced Optics (2)
+ Special Ops Training (0)
+ Lightweight Frame (2)
TIE Defender: Colonel Vessery (35 + 3)
+ Veteran Instincts (1)
+ Tractor Beam (1)
+ TIE/D (0)
+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/FO Fighter: Omega Leader (21 + 5)
+ A Score To Settle (0)
+ Advanced Optics (2)
+ Hull Upgrade (3)

Here's what I'm currently running.

Vess does get focused but it takes a couple rounds during which he is ruining your day, and then you're left with a full QD and a Tanky OL.

The TL and PS8 synergy of the list makes the Tie/D title totally worth it. But without something like that I would say Tie/X7 is better every time.

17 hours ago, DXCrazytrain said:

QD Vess OL (99/100)
====================
TIE/SF Fighter: Quickdraw (29 + 6)
+ Adaptability (0)
+ Fire Control System (2)
+ Advanced Optics (2)
+ Special Ops Training (0)
+ Lightweight Frame (2)
TIE Defender: Colonel Vessery (35 + 3)
+ Veteran Instincts (1)
+ Tractor Beam (1)
+ TIE/D (0)
+ Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/FO Fighter: Omega Leader (21 + 5)
+ A Score To Settle (0)
+ Advanced Optics (2)
+ Hull Upgrade (3)

Here's what I'm currently running.

Vess does get focused but it takes a couple rounds during which he is ruining your day, and then you're left with a full QD and a Tanky OL.

The TL and PS8 synergy of the list makes the Tie/D title totally worth it. But without something like that I would say Tie/X7 is better every time.

This looks like a good ol' fashioned 3 ship "fly your *** off" list. If you can keep arcs and fly well, I bet you can take down most lists. And with nothing super crazy or weird in the list, should be pretty easy to play all day long. I assume Vess would shoot first and then everyone else will follow up?