On 3/28/2018 at 9:45 AM, Babaganoosh said:

The top ships are going to change real quick when the new FAQ drops, if my sources are right

The legitimacy of your sources is directly proportional to how many bothans died to give you this information

29 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

The legitimacy of your sources is directly proportional to how many bothans died to give you this information

Our currency is ewoks on the shuttle tydirium podcast... let me assure you that plenty have died for this information

18 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

If you are right, it better be real quick, FFG will just about have a mutiny on its hands if they drop an FAQ within 3 weeks of Worlds with no warning. If this is the case there will be significant discontent towards any players aware of an FAQ change this far in advance that have the knowledge that the meta's going to change and they had a lot longer to test than everyone else who gets blindsided a few weeks out..

Like FFG hasn't already done it with Deadeye nerf...

23 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:

Our currency is ewoks on the shuttle tydirium podcast... let me assure you that plenty have died for this information

Oh ****.

Maybe I should stop joking about them

2 hours ago, drjkel said:

There's almost always a major event coming nowadays.

The System Opens have run from November to June this year, often with more than one per month, and 2018 Nationals have started already. At no time would it have been "before major events."

I actually think it would be way more fun if nerfs were dropped as close to major events as possible. You could see who is actually good and can adapt quickly (and get way more data points that testers have an unfair advantage if they're the only ones, over and over again).

Well, FFG could always drop the FAQ, but instead of having it take effect in 1 week, have it take effect in 1-2 month, to ensure an even playing field.

Sadly, so far I have yet to see even a single thing suggesting the integrity and fairness of the competition is too high on their priority list

5 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Well, FFG could always drop the FAQ, but instead of having it take effect in 1 week, have it take effect in 1-2 month, to ensure an even playing field.

Sadly, so far I have yet to see even a single thing suggesting the integrity and fairness of the competition is too high on their priority list

The 2017 Australian Nationals occurred after the great nerf was dropped, but a few days before it came into effect. Many people were annoyed at being wrecked by lists officially determined unfair, but not yet technically banned.

It seems that in most competitive formats integrity and fairness are ideals that are pushed aside by certain types of people for either bigger events or getting closer to the win.

7 hours ago, Babaganoosh said:

Our currency is ewoks on the shuttle tydirium podcast... let me assure you that plenty have died for this information

Not sure what the ewok to bothan exchange rate is but I gotta imagine it's something like yen to the dollar

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not sure what the ewok to bothan exchange rate is but I gotta imagine it's something like yen to the dollar

I'd say something like the Alderaanian currency to the Imperial Credit.

Besides, Ewoks don't have the political disposition to milk their dead bothans for all their worth over decades.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not sure what the ewok to bothan exchange rate is but I gotta imagine it's something like yen to the dollar

But J-Bot trained Ewoks are a whole lot different currency

3 hours ago, Astech said:

The 2017 Australian Nationals occurred after the great nerf was dropped, but a few days before it came into effect. Many people were annoyed at being wrecked by lists officially determined unfair, but not yet technically banned.

It seems that in most competitive formats integrity and fairness are ideals that are pushed aside by certain types of people for either bigger events or getting closer to the win.

That's a fair point I guess if you look at FAQs like that. As a long tome video game player, where balance patches are a fact of life, I never looked at them as 'this was unfair all along' but as an.evolution.

About integrity and fairness, IMO upholding them should start with the organizers, and FFG doesn't seem to care that much about either.

43 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

That's a fair point I guess if you look at FAQs like that. As a long tome video game player, where balance patches are a fact of life, I never looked at them as 'this was unfair all along' but as an.evolution.

About integrity and fairness, IMO upholding them should start with the organizers, and FFG doesn't seem to care that much about either.

I see the point of view, but there's a few key differences:

1. When a balance patch is released for a video game, it's incredibly rare that players have to buy new content to stay competitive, as opposed to board games, where a slight nerf means you've got to buy $100-$1000 extra material (Varying by game, mostly).

2. A 'list' takes an awful lot longer to get good with that in video games. Even the asymmetrical games like LOL mostly consist of fundamentals that are tweaked by individual characters. In addition, games are much shorter to play at the competitive level as opposed to a board games 1-1.5 hour learning cycle.

3. Balance patches for games are often a lot more transparent and rapid than X-wings poor system of approval. So balance patches don't happen a year or more after they're needed (JM5K, Palp, Defenders, etc).

By definition, they're not unfair, since every player has more or less the same chance of winning. But by flying lists that are very clearly broke (i.e. better than every other option, save its hard counters) you're damaging the health of the meta for the sake of a slightly increased win chance. Flying that kind of list when the Devs have already announced that the list was a mistake and shouldn't be possible is just insult to injury, in my opinion.

2 hours ago, Astech said:

But by flying lists that are very clearly broke (i.e. better than every other option, save its hard counters) you're damaging the health of the meta for the sake of a slightly increased win chance. Flying that kind of list when the Devs have already announced that the list was a mistake and shouldn't be possible is just insult to injury, in my opinion.

Some lists will always be better than others. It's the nature of any game designed by humans, aka imperfect. It's also been the case in x-wing since day 1, when 100 points of TIE fighters were better than 100 points of x-wings.

The devs are also not announcing that a list 'shouldn't be possible' or 'was a mistake'. The devs are simply stating that a certain thing won't be possible since day X onward. It's a natural step in the evolution of every game, and using that thing until day x is following both the letter and the spirit of the rules.

3 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Some lists will always be better than others. It's the nature of any game designed by humans, aka imperfect. It's also been the case in x-wing since day 1, when 100 points of TIE fighters were better than 100 points of x-wings.

The devs are also not announcing that a list 'shouldn't be possible' or 'was a mistake'. The devs are simply stating that a certain thing won't be possible since day X onward. It's a natural step in the evolution of every game, and using that thing until day x is following both the letter and the spirit of the rules.

A link to the Great FAQ's release announcement article is here.

It essentially boils down to:
Advanced SLAM guaranteed powerful, cheap combos would work reliably throughout the whole game - they've been nerfed so that an opponent an make meaningful decisions more than once or twice a game.

Attanni Mindlink was nerfed because it made entire lists immune to stress, while simultaneously giving them a massive efficiency boost when not facing stress-dealing lists.

Biggs was nerfed to prevent fortressing; something the developers have actively worked against, both in the tournament scene and in the development process. Mostly due to the complete NPE that resulted.

Genius was nerfed because it was a get out of jail free card for scum Nym, under any and all circumstances where he'd otherwise be taking fire from a single ship. Again, the card removed all choice from the opponent. If you've ever seen Nym's movement map with Advanced Sensors, EU and Genius, you'll know how ridiculous it is.

Finally, the JM5K was nerfed because it shamed all the other ships in the game in every single area: dial, price, firepower, health, durability, maneuverability, adaptability, customizability, pilot skill, access to EPTs (only ship in the game with every pilot possessing one) and access to the strongest upgrade pool in the game by far (Zuckuss, Attanni, etc). Not taking as many as you could was a definitive mistake in all circumstances, as there was no counter at any point during their reign.

In a core set, there is bound to be some imbalance (especially one as inexpensive as X-wing). A single X-wing was fine against 2 TIEs; it was only when multiple sets were purchased that it became a problem. By wave 3, a combination of X-wings and B-wings were a match for a Swarm, and from wave 4 onward, both fell out of favour.

What the devs were saying is that something they'd released had received massive community backlash which, in concert with their own observations, led them to some conclusions: The nerfed cards were not only stronger than anything else, but they were also impossible to counter-play against, leaving an opponent who hasn't brought one of those 5 cards to the table at a serious disadvantage.

25 minutes ago, Astech said:

In a core set, there is bound to be some imbalance (especially one as inexpensive as X-wing). A single X-wing was fine against 2 TIEs; it was only when multiple sets were purchased that it became a problem. By wave 3, a combination of X-wings and B-wings were a match for a Swarm, and from wave 4 onward, both fell out of favour.

Then Wave 3 might have been the golden age of x-wing. From wave 4 onward the top of the meta was always dominated by a handful of lists, most, if not all, of them, receiving direct or indirect nerfs.

15 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Then Wave 3 might have been the golden age of x-wing. From wave 4 onward the top of the meta was always dominated by a handful of lists, most, if not all, of them, receiving direct or indirect nerfs.

The Golden Age of "TIE fighter the miniature game". Because Tieswarm was so much stronger w1-w3

7 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Then Wave 3 might have been the golden age of x-wing. From wave 4 onward the top of the meta was always dominated by a handful of lists, most, if not all, of them, receiving direct or indirect nerfs.

Agreed.

It's sad, however, that all of the meta lists were picked out within hours of the necessary cards being spoiled.

Wave 4 Phantom + Mini Swarm. Countered by Fat Han.
Wave 5 Fatter turrets (Dash and RAC)
Wave 6 Brobots, Autothrusters Soontir + Carnor.
Wave 7 Miranda, not Punishers.
Wave 8 JM5Ks. Wow, the JM5Ks... Double Ghost, Kanan+Biggs also, but outright eclipsed by JM5Ks. Inquisitor Added to Palp's retinue.
Wave 9 Asajj and Fenn (Paratanni), Quickdraw was highlighted, but lacked crucial tools (LWF + Expertise + Harpoons).
Wave 10 Quickdraw gets better, but not perfect. Nt much else really, but a fantastic internally balanced wave.
Wave 11 . Nym! Oh boy, how obvious his builds were, so many of them amazing. NyManda gains steam. Lowhrick in all forms, with all the tanky wingmates except Dash (notably Fairship Rebels and Rey). Quad Wookies. Triple Wookies. Aggressor is underrated, but the quad TLTs now spread across all three factions.
Wave 12/13 (Simultaneous Release) Kanan/Fenn was the big one, and still is. Gunboats are a thing finally, and a fantastic addition to the game at that. Final Form (Nym and Miranda's peak) was huge for the single month it lasted before nerfing. kylo was briefly hopeful, but swallowed by Kanan/Fenn.

Imperial Aces Soontir/Carnor Buff.
Rebel Aces not much.
Imperial Veterans TIE/X7, briefly Tomax, but mostly X7.
HotR PS9 Poe, Rey. Han's great for casual games and HotAC.
G4H Harpoons! briefly Thweek and Viktor, also swallowed by Kanan/Fenn.

CR-90 Fat Han.
Raider Imperial Aces.

Nearly all of these were super obvious, and could have been prevented if even a little bit of decent play testing had been done/acted on correctly. Heck, if all the nerfs were as timely as the Final Form nerf the game would have been a lot broader over the years.

At least the golden age of xwing was fluff (1 - 3) !

A small group of rebels fighters with their courage and astromech against the might of the empire with their swarm tactics

wave 1-3 actually make me really miss Armada now

that's a game that respects the goddamn OT by making its ships, from the humble TIE to the largest Star Destroyer, a force to be reckoned with

apart from the fact that the only Imperial OT capital ship is the ISD (and the executor which ain't fitting on a table) so they have to draw from other sources, of course. But hey, at least their squadrons are still good

On 3/28/2018 at 9:45 AM, Babaganoosh said:

The top ships are going to change real quick when the new FAQ drops, if my sources are right

I assume you're joking. But if you're not, how about a real broad piece of information that is unspecific enough that you could guess and still get it right.

What is a single list archetype would be impacted? Ego? Ghost Fenn? Imperial Aces?

For example, if you knew that TLT was getting nerfed you could say Ego. We wouldnt know if the change impacting the list was TLT, Miranda's ability, harpoons, Lowhhrick, Fenn's ability, etc.

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

wave 1-3 actually make me really miss Armada now

that's a game that respects the goddamn OT by making its ships, from the humble TIE to the largest Star Destroyer, a force to be reckoned with

apart from the fact that the only OT capital ship is the ISD (and the executor which ain't fitting on a table) so they have to draw from other sources, of course. But hey, at least their squadrons are still good

My FLGS has just started getting into Armada, and when people walk past they stop and stare for up to 5 minutes, admiring the beautiful, recognisable ships. Compare that to X-wing, where passers by recognise the game, but absolutely nothing on the table, save the very occasional Rey falcon.

I think Home One is large enough to be a capital ship, and is an OT canon ship. In addition, the Interdictor has been shown in Rebels now, so it could be argued to be OT.

4 minutes ago, Astech said:

My FLGS has just started getting into Armada, and when people walk past they stop and stare for up to 5 minutes, admiring the beautiful, recognisable ships. Compare that to X-wing, where passers by recognise the game, but absolutely nothing on the table, save the very occasional Rey falcon.

I think Home One is large enough to be a capital ship, and is an OT canon ship. In addition, the Interdictor has been shown in Rebels now, so it could be argued to be OT.

whoops sorry, I meant Imperial OT ship

rebels got everything they could from RoTJ and it all looks wonderful and play wonderfully too! (well, the Neb's a bit fiddly, but if you can leverage it correctly it punches way above where its weight class has any right to)

in fact, the Yavaris supporting a compliment of B-wings is one of the scariest things ever

and how in the **** could you ever read "supported B-wings are terrifying" in X-wing and not burst out laughing

54 minutes ago, Astech said:

Heck, if all the nerfs were as timely as the Final Form nerf the game would have been a lot broader over the years.

I doubt it. The only times meta was broad IMO was between the moment of a great nerf and the moment somebody solves the new meta and wins a major event with the new hotness. X-wing has layers upon layers upon layers of imbalances built over time. Peeling off the top layer just means the one right underneath becomes the top layer.

That's just how the game is built. Periodic nerfs and/or power creep keep the game interesting, by changing what's on top, that's all. Personally, I feel x-wing, at least with the current design team, will never be a perfectly balanced game. It will always be a game of top lists and inferior options. In practice, I'd rather accept that and focus on what the game is, and why it's fun, instead of lamenting what the game isn't (and IMO will never be) too much.

Ship type has finally settled on the victor which will. I think, remain unchanged to Worlds as it's the best, by far for any squad:

#1. Sheathipede-class Shuttle, AP-5, 447, 8.32%, 90, 71.42%, 17.99%

I so wish I could run it with my loaded out Vader/Vessery list....... oh well.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Ship type has finally settled on the victor which will. I think, remain unchanged to Worlds as it's the best, by far for any squad:

#1. Sheathipede-class Shuttle, AP-5, 447, 8.32%, 90, 71.42%, 17.99%

I so wish I could run it with my loaded out Vader/Vessery list....... oh well.

Well, the reaper's sort of like an inverse sheathe (jam instead of coordinate)

Not sure if it'll get a stress-help ability, though

Going off latest system open results, I'm thinking Lowhhrick ends up being top. Miranda 2nd. Ezra 3rd. Then a tossup between Fenn and QD.