1 hour ago, RedHotDice said:

Just stop all this nerf nonsense!!!!!!!

Kylo ren, Quckdraw and Epsilon Ace just won UK Systems Open the LARGEST X-wing event EVER!! And the tournament feature numerous top players, system open winners and at least one Worlds winner.

No turrets, Harpoons, or Bombs in that list.

This man get's it. Also why are people over complicating it; just make TLT unique and this line to the bottom of TLT.

"Assign a weapons disabled token to this ship" stops ghost spamming.

**** if you don't want to hit the TLT. just add it to the Phantom

"When you perform an attack with a secondary weapon assign the Ghost a weapons disable token," <--- This future proofs the ghost; giving the shuttle a turret would just close off the donut that it has.

--- Are alternative, play more and learn the weaknesses and stop moaning;

9 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

you think ion and dorsal turret are broken? im so confused.

No... quite the opposite. I think Ghosts and Miranda and (to a lesser extent) Scurrgs are a bit more powerful than their points values would indicate.

So: let me explain again: if TLT goes up by 2, in order for, say, Y-Wings and HWKs to remain at their current power level, they'd need to go down by two. But this would probably be a bit too much of a boost to Dorsal and Ion, so they'd go up by 1. So flying, say, Dace Bonearm with an Ion Turret becomes a point cheaper. Deadeye Kavil with Synced goes down by 1. A Dorsal Turret TIE Aggressor, likewise, goes down 1 point.

However, the Ghost with a turret, which is still probably a bit overpowered with non-TLT turrets still goes up 1 point. Miranda with any turret goes up by 1 point, so does Nym.

Maybe that's all overwrought. 1 up on TLT, Ghost, Nym, Sol, Miranda, 1 down on Y-Wing, HWK, Aggressor, Blaster. But when all the parts are all put together, it works out about the same. If the cost of both turrets and turret-carriers changes, all changes need to be considered as one change to see the impact.

5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

there was no -2 in any of the comments i read.

also why subtract then add?

What I've been thinking is a 2 point increase to TLT, a 1 point increase in everything but Blaster, and Y/HWK/Aggressor down 2 points each, maybe generic K-Wings down 1 (maybe Esege too). As a result, Miranda and Nym and Ghosts are more expensive for any reasonable turret, but most ships with secondary weapon turrets stay flat or get a buff. Generic Scurrg get a bit of a ding, but it's a strong platform in terms of statline, cost, and dial even before a turret, and taking a point off of one of those seems unnecessary.

5 hours ago, RedHotDice said:

Just stop all this nerf nonsense!!!!!!!

Kylo ren, Quckdraw and Epsilon Ace just won UK Systems Open the LARGEST X-wing event EVER!! And the tournament feature numerous top players, system open winners and at least one Worlds winner.

No turrets, Harpoons, or Bombs in that list.

Cool story bro?

One datapoint. Such Wow.

Just make it so that TLT criticals are cancelled before the compare dice step. It makes miranda and the ghost hit less hard. Regenning with miranda will mean a missed hit is even more likely, she will deal less consistent damage and the ghost can't abuse guaranteed hits. In the future, a turret specifically for those ships: small only, single attack only can be made.

58 minutes ago, miguelj said:

Cool story bro?

One datapoint. Such Wow.

One datapoint weighted with the challenge of the event/number of attendees to the event (around 508).

Wow indeed

15 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

No... quite the opposite. I think Ghosts and Miranda and (to a lesser extent) Scurrgs are a bit more powerful than their points values would indicate.

So: let me explain again: if TLT goes up by 2, in order for, say, Y-Wings and HWKs to remain at their current power level, they'd need to go down by two. But this would probably be a bit too much of a boost to Dorsal and Ion, so they'd go up by 1. So flying, say, Dace Bonearm with an Ion Turret becomes a point cheaper. Deadeye Kavil with Synced goes down by 1. A Dorsal Turret TIE Aggressor, likewise, goes down 1 point.

However, the Ghost with a turret, which is still probably a bit overpowered with non-TLT turrets still goes up 1 point. Miranda with any turret goes up by 1 point, so does Nym.

Maybe that's all overwrought. 1 up on TLT, Ghost, Nym, Sol, Miranda, 1 down on Y-Wing, HWK, Aggressor, Blaster. But when all the parts are all put together, it works out about the same. If the cost of both turrets and turret-carriers changes, all changes need to be considered as one change to see the impact.

thats nonsense.

it doesnt have to go both up and down simultaneously.

if something costs 1 dollar, you arent required to sell it for 3 dollars but give 2 back in change.

you just sell it for a dollar

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

thats nonsense.

it doesnt have to go both up and down simultaneously.

if something costs 1 dollar, you arent required to sell it for 3 dollars but give 2 back in change.

you just sell it for a dollar

It discounts the inefficient carriers while adding a slight penalty to the more-efficient carriers.

Otherwise you hurt ships that shouldn't be hurt or help ships that really don't need help.

7 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

thats nonsense.

it doesnt have to go both up and down simultaneously.

if something costs 1 dollar, you arent required to sell it for 3 dollars but give 2 back in change.

you just sell it for a dollar

That's my last sentence.

So my thought sequence was this:

1. TLT should be 2 points more expensive on the Ghost and Miranda.
2. But then Y-Wings and Aggressors are bad, they should be 2 points cheaper
3. But then they're too cheap with other turrets.
4. So other turrets have to be 1 point more expensive. The weaker ships will be the same or cheaper once built.
5. (now) But wouldn't it be better to just leave most turrets alone, increase Ghost/Miranda/TLT by 1, and Y/HWK/TIEAgg down by 1.

Anyhow, I do feel like any suite of changes which makes TLT worse ought to make Y/HWK/A better . Shifting a point from the cost of the under-performing ships to the cost of the best turret makes them cheaper with other turrets (so "best turret" isn't as clear), and it also reigns in over-performing ships.

12 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

That's my last sentence.

So my thought sequence was this:

1. TLT should be 2 points more expensive on the Ghost and Miranda.
2. But then Y-Wings and Aggressors are bad, they should be 2 points cheaper
3. But then they're too cheap with other turrets.
4. So other turrets have to be 1 point more expensive. The weaker ships will be the same or cheaper once built.
5. (now) But wouldn't it be better to just leave most turrets alone, increase Ghost/Miranda/TLT by 1, and Y/HWK/TIEAgg down by 1.

Anyhow, I do feel like any suite of changes which makes TLT worse ought to make Y/HWK/A better . Shifting a point from the cost of the under-performing ships to the cost of the best turret makes them cheaper with other turrets (so "best turret" isn't as clear), and it also reigns in over-performing ships.

upgrades should not (and wont) cost different amounts based on the pilot they are assigned to.

its completely absurd to think that players ought to check interaction charts to price their squad.

if a particular pilot is too strong or weak, reprice them and be done. same with upgrades

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

upgrades should not (and wont) cost different amounts based on the pilot they are assigned to.

its completely absurd to think that players ought to check interaction charts to price their squad.

if a particular pilot is too strong or weak, reprice them and be done. same with upgrades

...That isn't the suggestion.

Y-Wings would now cost 16, base. Aggressors would cost 15, base. Hwks would cost 14, base.

On 3/26/2018 at 11:35 AM, RedHotDice said:

One datapoint weighted with the challenge of the event/number of attendees to the event (around 508).

Wow indeed

it is "wow" in the context of the ability of the player who managed to score such a victory

as a testament to the the list involved relative to the meta of turrets, bombs and harpoons...yeah, it's one data point. People in general love to hoist exceptions as some sort of proof that things are varied when the rarity of such lists should in fact enforce the meta

it'd be like seeing James Coburn of the Magnificent Seven do his thing and then believing that knives are just as effective projectiles as bullets

Easy Fix?

Just swap to a low sodium diet

Give the defense roll Range bonus. Fixed.

6 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

...That isn't the suggestion.

Y-Wings would now cost 16, base. Aggressors would cost 15, base. Hwks would cost 14, base.

sounds good. but what ive been responding to in this thread was the suggestion that turrets like dorsal and ion turret needed cost increases (which they do not) and the suggestion that upgrades would cost different amounts on different shops(which they should not)

TLT - When attacking you cannot modify dice, If attacking outside your arc the defender gets a focus result

Miranda - Primary attack only

What's wrong with that?

14 minutes ago, Dengars Toilet Paper said:

TLT - When attacking you cannot modify dice, If attacking outside your arc the defender gets a focus result

Miranda - Primary attack only

What's wrong with that?

In basis, I agree.

Some people make the changes too specific to a ship or squad interaction, that's complicated, clumsy and bad. Use a knife and just cut the cancer out and heal the body, simple. Use the KISS method.

TLT add text in the middle, “...if the first attack hits, you may perform this attack again...”

All Turret Upgrade s get this rule change: “the Defender may use defensive range bonus”

Miranda ’s Pilot ability “primary weapon only”

19 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

In basis, I agree.

Some people make the changes too specific to a ship or squad interaction, that's complicated, clumsy and bad. Use a knife and just cut the cancer out and heal the body, simple. Use the KISS method.

TLT add text in the middle, “...if the first attack hits, you may perform this attack again...”

All Turret Upgrade s get this rule change: “the Defender may use defensive range bonus”

Miranda ’s Pilot ability “primary weapon only”

Yeah I think Simple is the best the TLT change looks fine, the miranda change is perfect and the all turret upgrades would be acceptable but not necessarily needed as the only range 3 turret is TLT anyway so for future use it might come into play but for now It would complicate the game for beginners

9 minutes ago, Dengars Toilet Paper said:

Yeah I think Simple is the best the TLT change looks fine, the miranda change is perfect and the all turret upgrades would be acceptable but not necessarily needed as the only range 3 turret is TLT anyway so for future use it might come into play but for now It would complicate the game for beginners

Sure this , I just want to rub it in, well, because TLT.

It makes the case for future turret modifications, and it makes the TLT basically a range 2 only weapon. Logically, it shouldn't be as accurate at range 3, especially as it is out of arc 90% of the time.

If FFG ever did any thing about TLT, which at this point I'm not convinced they will, I'd guess it to be more along the lines of the decloak fix. They'd rather modify external rules like the main rulebook or a reference card than the actual upgrade cards.

Changing upgrade turret rules to in the rulebook for the defender to add an extra defense die when defending out of arc or at range 3 (or something like that) would go a long way to fix a lot of issues and make flying matter more. It doesn't instantly make miranda, ghost, dash, etc completely useless. It lowers their power level just enough that a lot of other ships can actually compete.

11 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

upgrades should not (and wont) cost different amounts based on the pilot they are assigned to.

its completely absurd to think that players ought to check interaction charts to price their squad.

if a particular pilot is too strong or weak, reprice them and be done. same with upgrades

Yeah, you're really not getting what I'm saying. Like, at all. I didn't want upgrades more expensive on different ships. I never said anything like that. In fact, I said exactly that last line: raise the costs on some, lower the costs on others.

TLT is too strong, so ought to be more expensive.

It's important to recognize that with a more expensive TLT then Y-Wings, HWKs, Aggressors are too expensive, and would need to be cheaper.

So change ALL Y/H/A regardless of upgrades, knowing that they'll probably take TLT anyhow.

Side-benefit: non-TLT Y/H/A are better now. Because balancing the whole of the game is important. Raising costs on one upgrade or ship might require, for balance reasons, costs to change on other upgrades or ships. So change a lot of them at once.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

TLT is too strong, so ought to be more expensive.

Yep at the end of the day their is only so many ways to change it:

1) Increase the cost

2) But a disadvantage on it (range bonus)

3) Nerf the ships that use it

But when it has been such a dominant part in a lot of metas you know something has to be done about it just like what has been done to the JM5K

My personal preference to "fixing" the Ghost is to allow attacks against the docked Phantom from attackers within the Ghost's auxiliary arc. But I know that'll never see the light of day.

TLT Errata:

Add "Cancel all <crit> results".

Making the card hit less reliably would be another way to decrease its efficiency/power level.

On 3/26/2018 at 4:38 AM, RedHotDice said:

Just stop all this nerf nonsense!!!!!!!

Kylo ren, Quckdraw and Epsilon Ace just won UK Systems Open the LARGEST X-wing event EVER!! And the tournament feature numerous top players, system open winners and at least one Worlds winner.

No turrets, Harpoons, or Bombs in that list.

Well, we've seen nerfs in the past and while it's easy to over-nerf into obscurity, for the most part FFG's erratas have done the job. Palp is still used but it isn't as broken as it was, x7's are still viable, etc. Sometimes it feels like a nerf comes after it's relevant anymore but since FFG have obviously decided that balance through errata is how they're going to try and fix things, we can speculate about more things to nerf/buff.

But it's easy to blame the wrong thing. Why are people saying the Ghost needs a nerf? We've had the Ghost with TLT for nearly 3 years. It hasn't been dominating the game until, suddenly, recently, it has popped up everywhere alongside another new ship that is dirt cheap, provides the ghost with PS11 actions and neuters enemy attacks against it (especially with sensor jammer). Maybe the old thing that was just fine for 3 years is still just fine and the new thing that totally introduces a whole new paradigm is the problem?