You could go with the tabling rule, but only destroyed flotilla give you points for it.

That way you could go for an easy victory by going on your opponents flagship, but only make it 7-4-ish, cause you have no time left to get the other points as the game ends. If you want the big points, go for the spam first and risk being hammered by the flagship.

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15 hours ago, eliteone said:

I think the rule might just limit the number of flotillas someone can place on the table, vs. the tabling rule if all small or larger ships are destroyed.

This is completely understandable, but not good design. Players who have purchased several flotillas already should be able to use them. Just two flotillas at MSRP are in the realm of $40, and some people have bought nearly $100 in relevant products in just one faction. Better to make that purchase less effective than to outright ban it.

Must activate two flotillas if player chooses to activate a flotilla? Only one flotilla may command squads during the paired activations?

how about - the 1st two flotillas do not count towards the number of surviving ships a player has when checking to see the match end conditions.

My feelings with flotillas if they are a pain all come down to the scatter.

It's commonly accepted that flotillas evaporate quickly when hit without scatter. No other defense token is as powerful in the game.

Remove / modify how insane scatter works and you no longer need specialist ships to hunt and kill them.

Makes flotillas easier to kill without killing off there use.

Just now, Radaeon said:

My feelings with flotillas if they are a pain all come down to the scatter.

It's commonly accepted that flotillas evaporate quickly when hit without scatter. No other defense token is as powerful in the game.

Remove / modify how insane scatter works and you no longer need specialist ships to hunt and kill them.

Makes flotillas easier to kill without killing of there use.

except for the knock on effect on squadrons that have scatter.....unless you are talking about errata scatter to include something like 'can only be used once per turn by flottilas'

OR you dont alter scatter but have a negative effect on the flotilla if they have used a scatter token that turn

eg: add 1 less die to all attack pools

add 1 less engineering point

command 1 less sqn

unable to spend command dials

I am open to the idea of changes haveing an effect on scatter aces.TBH I am not a fan of them.

But not to side track the disscussion from flotillas maybe something like a reverse evade.

But happy to see a solid disscussion on the subject.

Edit. Don't mind the idea about sqn losing an attack dice on the next attack if scatter is used. Or it cancels one attack dice even.

Scatter: If you would take any damage, reduce the total damage from your dice to 0.

This makes attacks slightly better vs scatter flotillas while squadrons remain mostly unchanged. The above change makes it so that critical damage effects and other effects that occur when hitting the target still go off. This also frees up the Officer slot by reducing the need for Intel Officers (which are often critical for threatening targets with insurmountable defensive tokens).

It makes imperial aces useless

I use scatter to keep a 3 hull tie alive, it now cant damage anything...

11 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

It makes imperial aces useless

I use scatter to keep a 3 hull tie alive, it now cant damage anything...

Assuming you're responding to my post. The answer is no, because squadrons cannot take critical damage and just getting hit still deals 0 actual damage from the die results. That means even Vader and Shara don't accomplish anything. But they’re still vulnerable to everything they were already vulnerable to - automatic damage and spend effects that occur before you get to spend your defense tokens.

I do not want to change the tabling rule in relation to flotillas. It just feels to me most of the complaints come not from them being unbeatable but people not getting that tabling bonus in tournaments. It just seems childish and wanting to limit cool list because you don't like them.

26 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Assuming you're responding to my post. The answer is no, because squadrons cannot take critical damage and just getting hit still deals 0 actual damage from the die results. That means even Vader and Shara don't accomplish anything. But they’re still vulnerable to everything they were already vulnerable to - automatic damage and spend effects that occur before you get to spend your defense tokens.

ah... ok I read your post as the sqn that uses the scatter can not deal damage on its next attack.

Your saying that scatter instead of cancelling all dice, just cancels any hits icons

On imperial scatter aces I feel they are point for point the best sqn in game. Almost to the point of to good (something i was saying well before they become the current craze).

I can see how the idea of reducing incoming damage to 0 is workable. Allows for some type of effect in the future.

I would be interested in exploring some sort of penalty for using the scatter. Be it reduction in number of damage dice or something else suotable. After all the scatter on tie's is about it being quick and hard to hit.

47 minutes ago, chr335 said:

I do not want to change the tabling rule in relation to flotillas. It just feels to me most of the complaints come not from them being unbeatable but people not getting that tabling bonus in tournaments. It just seems childish and wanting to limit cool list because you don't like them.

I would have to disagree here. If the flotilla heavy fleet is very hard/impossible to table (as flotillas can fly away in different directions and require a specialized ship to reliably kill), this skews the game towards max-squadron fleets, because if the fleet can't be tabled, the opponent that didn't bring his own max squadron and wins doesn't get those 50-100 points for squads that are still on the table (and therefore is unlikely to get more than 8-3 with 7-4 being the most common scenario). Keep in mind that pre-nerf Rieekan was too strong not because the fleet was unbeatable, but because it couldn't lose big while being able to win big.

2 hours ago, chr335 said:

I do not want to change the tabling rule in relation to flotillas. It just feels to me most of the complaints come not from them being unbeatable but people not getting that tabling bonus in tournaments. It just seems childish and wanting to limit cool list because you don't like them.

Also keep in mind you can still play the flotillas there is just actually some risk to doing it now.

I'm afraid that if flotillas do not count toward being tabled then tabling a carrier fleet using flotillas, or a bigship + many flotillas fleet, becomes very easy with a squadless fleet. It's right now the only thing saving a carrier fleet with folotillas from being quickly overrun. Maybe this isn't a bad thing?

With MSU, or all offensive ships without squads, it's pretty easy to just fly through a full squad force and destroy all non-flotilla ships. Wave 7 made this a lot easier too.

Brainstorming here...

-What if flotilla defense tokens cannot be Readied?

-What if a flotilla cannot be deployed unless it has 3 points of upgrades?

29 minutes ago, Thraug said:

I'm afraid that if flotillas do not count toward being tabled then tabling a carrier fleet using flotillas, or a bigship + many flotillas fleet, becomes very easy with a squadless fleet. It's right now the only thing saving a carrier fleet with folotillas from being quickly overrun. Maybe this isn't a bad thing?

Well, the way I see it - the fact that flotilla-heavy fleet would be easier to table is a desired outcome, so the risk of running flotilla-heavy is increased. Lets remember that carrier fleet doesn't need to be flotilla-heavy and can utilize non-flotilla ships to push squadrons (and/or include some rogues to decrease carrier workload), add a cheap corvette/raider as an insurance against tabling etc. And if someone plays big ship + flotillas archetype and loses that big ship, his fleet is essentially lost all combat strength so I have no problems with tabling rule here (same way 2ISD fleets would be tabled after losing both ISDs).

29 minutes ago, Thraug said:

With MSU, or all offensive ships without squads, it's pretty easy to just fly through a full squad force and destroy all non-flotilla ships. Wave 7 made this a lot easier too.

I think you're overestimating how easy (or not easy) is to table someone using a ship-heavy/MSU fleet (unless opponent is going all-in on squadrons and then tabling is a good outcome the same way squadronless fleet that doesn't tech against squadrons should be in a lot of hurt/tabled against a full-bomber force)

Just don't let flotillas count for tabling, and don't let them be the objective ship.

Adds some risk to taking 1+X fleets, and makes certain objectives (especially MW) less of a no-brainer safe inclusion.

If you're feeling extra spicy, also disallow flotillas from picking up objective tokens, impacting even more scenarios.

How about for every non-flotilla ship in your fleet, you many have a flotilla in the fleet

Would it be insane to adjust scatter rules so that the token does not ready at the end of the turn? Scatter would be a twice per game effect - still powerful, but not quite so annoying with those aces and flotillas.

1 hour ago, CommanderDave said:

Would it be insane to adjust scatter rules so that the token does not ready at the end of the turn? Scatter would be a twice per game effect - still powerful, but not quite so annoying with those aces and flotillas.

that would make squadrons even more powerful IMO.

Scatter should have different effect depending on the range IMO, like Evade.:

- Long range: Prevents all damage as before

- Medium range: You can remove one damage die

- Short range: You can make your opponent reroll up to 4 die.

14 minutes ago, Sybreed said:

that would make squadrons even more powerful IMO.

Scatter should have different effect depending on the range IMO, like Evade.:

- Long range: Prevents all damage as before

- Medium range: You can remove one damage die

- Short range: You can make your opponent reroll up to 4 die.

I would keep scatter as is. Flotillas aren't hard to kill if you're prepared for that (and if it's not necessary to kill them - the whole problem of scatter goes away) and making scatter weaker would make flotillas too weak to play.