2 hours ago, killerbeardhawk said:

4. I don't follow the meta, I define it. Check how many Ezras had Hera on them before this Open and after.

2 hours ago, killerbeardhawk said:

Im surprised you can see us from your high horse.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a little something we like to call “irony.”

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I don't know that one post makes me obsessive. I was just pointing out that @killerbeardhawk was the first person I saw running that build, so he wasn't just following the meta, as was suggested.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm not accusing you of being obsessive, but there is a general obsession community-wide. The meta is what it is, and how it become what it is is a question that's always more complicated than "that guy did it!"

Put we, as a community, are always searching for "that guy."

19 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Or perhaps because it is relatively obvious, cheap option.

@killerbeardhawk deserves all the credit for the win (congratulations), but this obsession with making sure the proper person gets credit for a build is a little silly.

Good combos are usually discovered by many hundreds of people all over the world. Just because somebody excelled with a known combo, doesn't mean it's their invention.

I didnt invent it, thsts impossible. I have simply have been talking about "The Strezra" since the beginning of Regional Season.

Just now, Sekac said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I'm not accusing you of being obsessive, but there is a general obsession community-wide. The meta is what it is, and how it become what it is is a question that's always more complicated than "that guy did it!"

Put we, as a community, are always searching for "that guy."

No worries! Space ships! Pew pew!

39 minutes ago, gennataos said:

@killerbeardhawk - Some folks probably don't realize you're the Open winner, nor do they probably realize that you were running Snap/Hera Ezra back in the Chicago Regional in early January.

The reason why you've seen that standard loadout for the last couple months is because @killerbeardhawk defined it a couple months ago.

I actually do know that he won the Open this past weekend, but had forgotten that he'd also won Minnesota a couple months back. I probably wouldn't have responded if he'd said he (took part in) defining it back in January, cause that's when it really started showing up and is probably true. I took exception that the Open results would since it happened long after it was already very much part of the meta and the standard build.

There was also something vaguely... Kanye like... about complaining about someone else being on a high horse and that statement in the same post that pushed a button.

On 3/24/2018 at 11:24 PM, sozin said:

8 of the top 8 Rebels in the big Mass Regional Swiss today. Something like 13 of 16 IIRC Rebs.

The competitive scene is off the rails right now, and the driver is asleep at the wheel. I have been on this game for every wave, playtested the first six waves, and led the drive to collect data since 2014 via ListJuggler, and I have never seen it like this before. We are in Crazytown.

Can you elaborate on this? I feel like X-wing has always had meta lists that seem to dominate. BBBBZ was so powerful in its time and other than the occasional tie swarm it seemed like you played rebels or you lost. Phantoms came out and certainly pre-nerf were just absurd. I straight up nearly quit the game when Phantoms came out. It felt like I geared against that list or I lost and it substantially sapped the fun out of the game for me. A ship with 4 red and effectively 4 green? Just insane. Scum came out, like rebels only better. Palp aces rolled around and rebels practically went extinct between that and triple defenders.

Recently it feels like the meta shifts every few months. Nym was everywhere and now is not. Poe had a hot second in the spotlight until Fenn with Hotshot kicked him out. Yes, there are wonky things out there, I think it's clear the sheathipede is just plain undercosted (Fenn's probably broken, Ezra is amazing, even AP5 is crazy good for the cost) and TLTs and Miranda have been a problem since inception ... but what makes today's meta substantially different to earlier power builds? Are the numbers more skewed for rebels than it was against rebels at the height of palp ace domination?

8 hours ago, Biophysical said:

It's funny how players view different ships in completely different ways.

I view Dash as a refuge for conservative players, who can fly wherever they want and can still take shots with the one of the biggest guns in the game. I'm not saying I'm right, but it seems to me a ship whose main weakness only comes forth when hard countered or seriously outplayed.

I'm sure there are people who think my favorite ships are boorish as well. We all like to think our favorites require cunning and boldness to maximize their strengths, while opponent's ships are solidly reliable across a broad spectrum of situations.

Well said. But I believe there are a few caveats. The standard LW/Rey/HLC 52 point Dash absolutely loves to kite for the whole game. The version I currently fly adds Glitterstim/Countermeasures/Prockets to the build, so I'm able to joust when I see the need. I think Das doesn't need to be seriously outplayed or countered for him to lose an exchange - the opponent just needs to have built a list with the awareness that he's a thing.

I personally view Imperial Aces as very boring to play, since with Palp you're simply never going to take damage unless you're outplayed.

8 hours ago, AlexW said:

I look at Dash as the other side of the same coin as Miranda (trading offense for defense) with the fact that he can be worth half points probably keeping him down a bit. I don't look at Dash , at least against most lists, as having the same number of difficult choices.

Half points change the equation drastically. 52 point Miranda drops a bomb every turn, often has C-3P0 for defense and recovers a shield a turn, so you're looking at 2 guaranteed evades behind 9 dice on a ship you can't chase. She also has SLAM, so continuous get out of jail free cards, provided she's not blocked. Dash being worth half points means that - in most cases - your MoV is garbage, or at least worse than a bye (my personal goal to beat).

I've played games with Dash where in the opening move he did a 3-hard instead of a 3-bank and that was how I lost, indisputably. He might not have as many choices to make as, say, Palp Aces, but all his choices are difficult.

5 hours ago, killerbeardhawk said:

Im surprised you can see us from your high horse.

1. Dash = Meta

2. I like flying Strezra. Its fun. Its really his list not Miranda 's.

3. Miranda is good but no where near immortal.

4. I don't follow the meta, I define it. Check how many Ezra s had Hera on them before this Open and after.

Dash is currently 13th on List Juggler - he's good, but one good pilot does not a meta list make.

You say that now, and Strezra is pretty awesome. But Miranda has been in the top spot for a very long time for a very good reason.

Miranda is the best use of points in the game. She is the best. The only thing that was ever better than her was JM5Ks, and now they're gone.

Changing one card doesn't stop it being a meta list. If you want to talk about changing the list - its strategy and overall strengths - maybe try changing Lowhrick for Wulf, or give Miranda an Ion Cannon Turret.

25 minutes ago, Astech said:

Well said. But I believe there are a few caveats. The standard LW/Rey/HLC 52 point Dash absolutely loves to kite for the whole game. The version I currently fly adds Glitterstim/Countermeasures/Prockets to the build, so I'm able to joust when I see the need. I think Das doesn't need to be seriously outplayed or countered for him to lose an exchange - the opponent just needs to have built a list with the awareness that he's a thing

I've played games with Dash where in the opening move he did a 3-hard instead of a 3-bank and that was how I lost, indisputably. He might not have as many choices to make as, say, Palp Aces, but all his choices are difficult.

I've actually played Dash for a competitive season but more play imperials a lot (though not Palp Aces) and, at least for me, while Dash certainly has bad choices, I can often find a safe place where he can go that he is going to be able to get a shot without taking fire. I found him boring, honestly, but that's obviously personal taste as I tend to prefer lists that have more interesting choices to make (for me). I'm not saying he can't be beat, but I think you're saying the same thing that Biophysical said, which is that you have to have him in mind when building a list. Otherwise Dash will absolutely, and easily, wreck an opponent, just like a good Whisper player could pre-nerf.

1 minute ago, AlexW said:

I've actually played Dash for a competitive season but more play imperials a lot (though not Palp Aces) and, at least for me, while Dash certainly has bad choices, I can often find a safe place where he can go that he is going to be able to get a shot without taking fire. I found him boring, honestly, but that's obviously personal taste as I tend to prefer lists that have more interesting choices to make (for me). I'm not saying he can't be beat, but I think you're saying the same thing that Biophysical said, which is that you have to have him in mind when building a list. Otherwise Dash will absolutely, and easily, wreck an opponent, just like a good Whisper player could pre-nerf.

This is a great point. If you don't have Dash in mind with listbuilding, you can be in for a very bad time. Compare with arguably the best Imperial pilot, Quickdraw, who is essentially countered by tactics alone.

12 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

This is a great point. If you don't have Dash in mind with listbuilding, you can be in for a very bad time. Compare with arguably the best Imperial pilot, Quickdraw, who is essentially countered by tactics alone.

ah, the magic of having a firing arc instead of a turret

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

This is a great point. If you don't have Dash in mind with listbuilding, you can be in for a very bad time. Compare with arguably the best Imperial pilot, Quickdraw, who is essentially countered by tactics alone.

Dash is pretty much the sole reason I don't fly a pure swarm to any competitive events anymore. Unless your opponent is really bad/unlucky, you just spend 75 minutes slowly losing. Now whenever I bring some TIEs, they're always escorted by (at least) Inquisitor for that sole matchup.

Dash is probably my most hated ship in the game, because (as you say) he needs to be beaten in list-building, rather than the actual game. He's just so oppressively good vs lower PS arc'd ships, that they have little hope of beating him without some specific tech to counter him.

4 hours ago, Astech said:

You say that now, and Strezra is pretty awesome. But Miranda has been in the top spot for a very long time for a very good reason.

Miranda is the best use of points in the game. She is the best. The only thing that was ever better than her was JM5Ks, and now they're gone.

Changing one card doesn't stop it being a meta list. If you want to talk about changing the list - its strategy and overall strengths - maybe try changing Lowhrick for Wulf, or give Miranda an Ion Cannon Turret.

What does "You say that now" mean? Are you implying that i had not said that before or that im only saying it because i won with it? As an long time Stresshog player, got a top cut in 2015 when Most Wanted dropped to lock Ywings with ion cannons and took stresshog to Hoth 2017, Strezra is the natural evolution of the ship archetype.

Why would I not fly a ship thats the best in the game, one which i have been flying in high level competitions for the last year, and winning a high percentage of them? My question is if she so SO good, how do other ships and lists win any tournament? Could it be the people flying the ships?

You are correct sir, it is a meta list. You know what else is? 100 point Corran, The Mynock Special, or Quickdraw OL Yorr. Why are these meta lists? People like Nathan Eide taking 100 point Corran to every event and winning, Dee Yun flying Whisper OL Palp with great success, and Duncan Howard making people look dumb with his elite flying skills of Omega leader and Quickdraw. You sir are speaking to a player who has ran the Ego (Miranda, Tank, Stress Debuff) archetype with amazing success for the last year and proves time and time again that it is not only good but in the hands of a good pilot it can beat any list.

Now please explain to me what YOU have done to DEFINE the meta?

To me those who say they don't "play the meta" know they couldn't fly the best lists against the best players so choose an easy way to explain why they lose.

24 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

To me those who say they don't "play the meta" know they couldn't fly the best lists against the best players so choose an easy way to explain why they lose.

Or you know, some people don't enjoy flying the ships/lists currently on top of the meta atm.

Ego was a very powerful list when I tried it out, but it wasn't particularly enjoyable or stimulating to fly. Same goes for those super-ghost lists, Nymranda, and wookies.

2 minutes ago, CRCL said:

Or you know, some people don't enjoy flying the ships/lists currently on top of the meta atm.

Ego was a very powerful list when I tried it out, but it wasn't particularly enjoyable or stimulating to fly. Same goes for those super-ghost lists, Nymranda, and wookies.

Not flying meta list is one thing. Constructing yourself a moral high ground out of not flying meta lists is another thing completely.

4 hours ago, AlexW said:

I've actually played Dash for a competitive season but more play imperials a lot (though not Palp Aces) and, at least for me, while Dash certainly has bad choices, I can often find a safe place where he can go that he is going to be able to get a shot without taking fire. I found him boring, honestly, but that's obviously personal taste as I tend to prefer lists that have more interesting choices to make (for me). I'm not saying he can't be beat, but I think you're saying the same thing that Biophysical said, which is that you have to have him in mind when building a list. Otherwise Dash will absolutely, and easily, wreck an opponent, just like a good Whisper player could pre-nerf.

I play a very great deal of Dash - and I've taken him to every regionals and above I've ever gone to. The trick to beating him isn't to think of what his bad options are, but instead to think about his single good option, and try to capitalise on him doing it. It's why I fly Prockets on him, because it gives him a single turn where almost all his options are good.

Whisper is a little different, in that you had to be either flying Whisper or PS9+ turrets yourself to have the slightest chance. Dash is different. 5 TIE Strikers is a nightmare for Dash, given their speed, dexterity around rocks and firepower, plus the inability to 1-shot them like TIEs.

4 hours ago, Biophysical said:

This is a great point. If you don't have Dash in mind with listbuilding, you can be in for a very bad time. Compare with arguably the best Imperial pilot, Quickdraw , who is essentially countered by tactics alone.

I'd argue that the best Imperial pilot, when points aren't an issue, is RAC. If your list isn't built with RAC in mind, then you're in for a way worse time thsn you would against Dash. QD is a jouster, so naturally she can be countered by good play, but then again Dash is 20 points more expensive, so you'd expect him to be harder to pin down.

1 hour ago, CRCL said:

Dash is pretty much the sole reason I don't fly a pure swarm to any competitive events anymore. Unless your opponent is really bad/unlucky, you just spend 75 minutes slowly losing. Now whenever I bring some TIEs, they're always escorted by (at least) Inquisitor for that sole matchup.

Dash is probably my most hated ship in the game, because (as you say) he needs to be beaten in list-building, rather than the actual game. He's just so oppressively good vs lower PS arc'd ships, that they have little hope of beating him without some specific tech to counter him.

That's pretty fair. I could argue that the anti-swarm bias started with Fat Han's arc-dodging, but Dash was the epitome of it upon release. At this point though, Dash isn't what's holding back swarms - bombs and harpoons are. 8 TIEs are pretty bad, but 4 Strikers and VI Sabacc will slaughter Dash in 2 turns, no matter what he tries to do.

I can understand the hate against him though, because a mediocre player flying him takes a good player to beat with a lot of otherwise strong lists.

7 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

What does "You say that now" mean? Are you implying that i had not said that before or that im only saying it because i won with it? As an long time Stresshog player, got a top cut in 2015 when Most Wanted dropped to lock Ywings with ion cannon s and took stresshog to Hoth 2017, Strezra is the natural evolution of the ship archetype.

Why would I not fly a ship thats the best in the game, one which i have been flying in high level competitions for the last year, and winning a high percentage of them? My question is if she so SO good, how do other ships and lists win any tournament? Could it be the people flying the ships?

You are correct sir, it is a meta list. You know what else is? 100 point Corran , The Mynock Special, or Quickdraw OL Yorr . Why are these meta lists? People like Nathan Eide taking 100 point Corran to every event and winning, Dee Yun flying Whisper OL Palp with great success, and Duncan Howard making people look dumb with his elite flying skills of Omega leader and Quickdraw . You sir are speaking to a player who has ran the Ego ( Miranda , Tank, Stress Debuff) archetype with amazing success for the last year and proves time and time again that it is not only good but in the hands of a good pilot it can beat any list.

Now please explain to me what YOU have done to DEFINE the meta?

To me those who say they don't "play the meta" know they couldn't fly the best lists against the best players so choose an easy way to explain why they lose.

Firstly, kudos for bringing up the big questions all at once.

It's pretty clear that you love stresshogs, which is great, because they're a valuable, counter-playable part of the game. But don't pretend it's the most valuable part of your list. It's like saying that the Queen's Pawn is the most valuable piece because it protects the queen in the early game. Your entire list is focused around keeping Miranda alive and getting Miranda where she wants to be.

Let me ask you something, were you one of the players who flew Triple JM5Ks when they were in their prime? Or maybe you took Dengaroo, Paratanni or Palp Defenders pre-nerf? Because all these lists have a few things in common - they're unoriginal, uninspired, boring to play against, boring games to spectate and relied on cards that were admitted to be significantly broken mere months afterwards. The only thing stronger than Miranda was JM5Ks, so Miranda fills that spot now.

Miranda is good enough that the inevitable variance that happens at large tournaments is overcome more often through her than any other ship in the game, while providing a non-variance based, unblockable defense combined with a lack of half-points (or, conversely, the presense of half-points rules on large ships). I'm don't know how skilled you are with statistics, but not taking Miranda to a large tournament is almost always a mistake. This mistake can be compensated by better players than you through skilled play and, in rare cases, ingenious list building.

This leads to winning lists at large tournaments that appear to favour a list that is in fact weaker. Of course, dice variance is also a large factor in a game like X-wing, where one might only roll 200-300 dice throughout a day. The players that most commonly win with "weaker" lists, like Corran, Howard's Aces and so on are flown by players that go to numerous large tournaments, while already having great skill with their lists (thousands of repetitions, even). You're then looking at the very real possibility that a given player just rolled hot, and overcame the few stronger lists in their path.

Thousands of players have shown that your list is amazing - one of the best ever, perhaps. Your win shows that you're clearly a very skilled player - and definitely better than me. But what have you done for the meta? Nothing . Either you took a list someone else had popularised, or reinvented the Miranda wheel and flew it slightly better than the competition. You've changed the opinions of no one on how strong and/or fun meta lists are to fly. You've given no insight into how to fly a difficult list, because it's as solved as a list can get. You've given us no list building tweaks, since the list wasn't yours.

What have I done for the meta? An example:

The last time I went to Nationals (Australia), I flew Dash and a Ghost. Every single game had both me and my opponents crying out with joy at several moments, and rueful head shakes when we blanked out. Every single game had my opponent groaning when I cunningly outmaneuvered them at a key point, and vice versa. Every single game was against a list I wasn't strong against (50%+ were hard counters), but every single match left both sides at 1 hull on the final round. Every single game ended with me and my opponent congratulating each other on our flying, then a wistful declaration to 'not go through that again today!'. Every single game was fun. *

In my local meta, I'm one of the better players, and encourage everyone to explore the full reaches of the game, rather than sticking with the same BS for months on end for a slight advantage. I've supported off-the-wall tournaments, a Corellian conflict adaptation and other non-100/6 formats that let the game shine. In short, I've actually played X-wing Miniatures, not X-wing Miniatures Tournament Meta.

Next time you go to a tournament, @killerbeardhawk , fly 4 B-wings and see how good you actually are, when you don't have a good list as a crutch.

* I finished 3-3, despite facing flying my Dash/Lothal against 2 RAClos (1 with Colzet+Wampa, one with QD) lists against my NyManda, Paratanni, Degar/Asajj and one fluff ace list (I think). This was a few days before the new FAQ came into play, which nerfed almost all the lists I had just faced. I lost two of the games only because of a specific crit on debris, at the exact wrong time (munitions failure and direct hit).

1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

Not flying meta list is one thing. Constructing yourself a moral high ground out of not flying meta lists is another thing completely.

That goes without saying. Different people enjoy different aspects of the game. I don't think your skill as a player should be poo-poo'd for deliberately not taking a meta list, any more than it should for taking a meta list.

There are big structural problems with X-wing atm, but those problems fall squarely at FFG's feet, not the player's.

1 hour ago, killerbeardhawk said:

To me those who say they don't "play the meta" know they couldn't fly the best lists against the best players so choose an easy way to explain why they lose.

Or they are entirely realistic about their chances against top players and would rather be beaten playing something they are having fun with than something that makes their play experience miserable. I’ve gone through the Listener series from the Krayts, and have a background in competitive kickboxing and judo. I know what it takes to git gud, and at this point in my life I have more important things than X-Wing to git gud at (being a father to my 3 year old daughter tops that list). I loose to the top level players because they are willing and able to do the work, and on the extremely rare occasions I get to play one of them it’s an honour and an excellent learning experience.

@Astech you got two things right, my list is good and I am better than you.

14 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

@Astech you got two things right, my list is good and I am better than you.

But can you beat ghost/fenn with bbbbz?

1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

But can you beat ghost/fenn with bbbbz?

Im giving it a shot with 7 Zs at CAC. Zack said i had no balls for not flying it at Green Bay, like i said i was going to. Decided after my last $100 of the month spent on the trip i would rather get some real Adepticon practice in than try to fly a 3-3 list into the cut. Now its time to clean up some Des Moines Imperial aces with a swarm, oh how the tables have turned!

1 minute ago, killerbeardhawk said:

Im giving it a shot with 7 Zs at CAC. Zack said i had no balls for not flying it at Green Bay, like i said i was going to. Decided after my last $100 of the month spent on the trip i would rather get some real Adepticon practice in than try to fly a 3-3 list into the cut. Now its time to clean up some Des Moines Imperial aces with a swarm, oh how the tables have turned!

You best leave those dubuque imp a ces alone though...

Just now, hawk32 said:

You best leave those dubuque imp a ces alone though...

Oh dont worry their only have 4 cruise and 3 tracer missiles, yiu shoukd be fine. Just dont joust the 7 Zs! Also be im a different pod than me helps! Good luck sir!

1 minute ago, killerbeardhawk said:

Oh dont worry their only have 4 cruise and 3 tracer missiles, yiu shoukd be fine. Just dont joust the 7 Zs! Also be im a different pod than me helps! Good luck sir!

Hey did you run qd/vess/ol last year?

47 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

@Astech you got two things right, my list is good and I am better than you.

7 hours ago, Astech said:

Next time you go to a tournament, @killerbeardhawk , fly 4 B-wings and see how good you actually are, when you don't have a good list as a crutch.

There's a lot of daylight between "Miranda" and "4 B-wings". Success is always an interplay of list quality and skill (and dice and matchups). To a degree, one can cover for another, but 4 B-wings just seems like being mean to yourself.