12 minutes ago, Makaze said:Average expected damage against SJ Ghost without being able to mod your 3 dice is 0.15
I feel like people still have this mistaken impression that it's just a big HP sponge that you automatically hit like a Decimator. It's not, with an evade and Fenn alive preventing mods it's roughly equivalent of taking a 3 die modded shot at a focused, 3AGI, autothruster ace (0.14 expected damage...)
That's an awesome comparison!
2 minutes ago, LordBlades said:That often works in the Ghost/Fenn player's advantage too. It's difficult to kill Fenn in 1 round , especially in the opening engagement, so that gives the Ghost 2 rounds to shoot at your list unopposed.
Sure. It's a tough list. I'm not disputing that.
But the idea that people are just going to blindly ignore Fenn and throw unmodified attacks at the Ghost turn after turn is just silly.
Being blinded is worse than taking unmodified shots. There really isn't a conversation there. Shooting is always better than not shooting.
If the counter argument, is "yeah but what if people play poorly and throw their shots away on a bad target? That's almost as bad as not shooting!" then we're still not having a real conversation.
2 minutes ago, Sekac said:Sure. It's a tough list. I'm not disputing that.
But the idea that people are just going to blindly ignore Fenn and throw unmodified attacks at the Ghost turn after turn is just silly.
Being blinded is worse than taking unmodified shots. There really isn't a conversation there. Shooting is always better than not shooting.
If the counter argument, is "yeah but what if people play poorly and throw their shots away on a bad target? That's almost as bad as not shooting!" then we're still not having a real conversation.
People will either n ot attack the Ghost at all for 2+ turns while killing Fenn (with unmodified dice) or ignore Fenn and throw unmodified dice at the Ghost for the whole game.
In theory, shooting unmodified dice is better than not shooting at all, obviously. In practice, I find none of the above situations vastly better than 2 turns of Blinded Pilot.
The difference is after 2 turns, Fenn is dead. If you're blinded twice, nobody is dead.
1 hour ago, LordBlades said:Edit: there's also some guys who just like Miranda or the Ghost.
I have to admit, this is me. Not Miranda- but I love flying the Ghost. It's a fun ship to fly, but I hate that with Fenn it has strayed in OP territory. I would be thrilled as much as anyone to see Ghost+Fenn brought down a notch, just so I can fly one of my favorite ships without feeling like a scuzzbucket.
I felt the same way about Palpatine and Defenders back before they were nerfed. When they were considered OP I rarely touched them, but after the nerf I've been able to fly them and enjoy them immensely.
31 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:I have to admit, this is me. Not Miranda- but I love flying the Ghost. It's a fun ship to fly, but I hate that with Fenn it has strayed in OP territory. I would be thrilled as much as anyone to see Ghost+Fenn brought down a notch, just so I can fly one of my favorite ships without feeling like a scuzzbucket.
No need to feel bad if you fly it without Fenn
Edited by flooze2 hours ago, Makaze said:Average expected damage against SJ Ghost without being able to mod your 3 dice is 0.15
I feel like people still have this mistaken impression that it's just a big HP sponge that you automatically hit like a Decimator. It's not, with an evade and Fenn alive preventing mods it's roughly equivalent of taking a 3 die modded shot at a focused, 3AGI, autothruster ace (0.14 expected damage...)
Well yeah, you have either 22 points shutting down 1 attack or 26-27 points shutting down 1.5 attacks. Not a completely unreasonable exchange rate.
It sucks when good green dice luck keeps Fenn living longer than he should, but that goes for pretty much any list. Good green dice are tough to crack. There are archetypes that the Ghost will be able to readily solo once that happens, but again, this is no different from any other arc-dodging/kiting ship in previous metas. Many other archetypes handle it without much issue.
The biggest "issue" with the Ghost is getting nearly full mods on a double-tap TLT for a total of 30 points, with 18 of those not counting towards half-point scoring. Ghost/Fenn is a thematic, synergistic list that pays a reasonable amount of points to get all of its tricks.
That being said, PS 10+ coordinate on a control piece starting at 20 points was really, really poorly thought out. Irritating, and the Sheathipede in general is undercosted, but meh. Not the first time, and won't be the last.
8 hours ago, sozin said:
It is interesting how a lot of this goes back to decisions made early on in the game. 360 turrets led to autothrusters, but autothrusters/Palp were so good that the aces became unhittable, which gave rise to TLT, bombs, and super ordinance. You almost have to go back to 360 turrets and autothrusters first :/
Basically this. You have to go back and unpick everything from Wave 7 onwards.
And my prime concern in a non-TLT meta is that it's going to be wall-to-wall Dash. Wall. To wall.
42 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:Ghost/Fenn is a thematic, synergistic list that pays a reasonable amount of points to get all of its tricks.
How is it thematic when there are two Phantom shuttles in the list?
24 minutes ago, Estarriol said:How is it thematic when there are two Phantom shuttles in the list?
Fenn rarely survives until the Ghost deploys so it's not like you're seeing both shuttles on the table at the same time on anything resembling a regular basis
7 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:Absolutely. It's all the Advanced SLAMming K-wing bombers.
Actually, historically it was Ryad & Vessery that removed Soontir from the metagame. Since that point it's not just one thing but that the whole game has lowkey hated on that ship archetype for a year or so. Asajj is a major factor I think, but there's so many more ships with aux arcs in general, so Soontir has less safe space to arc dodge into, and autothrusters don't work in aux arcs. Plus bombs. Plus more pilots in PS wars at 10+. Plus red dice creep. etc etc.
Edited by Stay On The Leader51 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:Fenn rarely survives until the Ghost deploys so it's not like you're seeing both shuttles on the table at the same time on anything resembling a regular basis
And then you’re seeing the Phantom 2 being replaced by the Phantom 1 after it’s destroyed. Also not thematic.
1 hour ago, Estarriol said:And then you’re seeing the Phantom 2 being replaced by the Phantom 1 after it’s destroyed. Also not thematic.
You could imagine a slightly alternate timeline where both phantoms existed side by side (because can’t have enough shuttles!) and where the ghost can blow up if you can get past the plot armor.
19 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:You could imagine a slightly alternate timeline where both phantoms existed side by side (because can’t have enough shuttles!) and where the ghost can blow up if you can get past the plot armor.
I could imagine an alternate timeline where Kylo Ren turns out good and flies X-wings with Poe. It still wouldn’t be thematic.
1 hour ago, Estarriol said:I could imagine an alternate timeline where Kylo Ren turns out good and flies X-wings with Poe. It still wouldn’t be thematic.
Thematic went out the window in Wave 1 with Biggs, pops and Dave flying against Maarek Stele, an imperial recruited after Hoth. Not to mention all of Black Squadron flying against Horton or grey squadron. Just gets worse from there.
Agreed @GrimmyV , but I'll side with @Estarriol in this instance because making an errata that only allowed one Phantom (either I or II) in a list because I think it would assist the balancing of this list. Plus, your wonderful examples are a bit deeper and doesn't slap the casual Star Wars fan as this one does; thanks for showing us your knowledge though, props. Besides, if FFG really cared about SW cannon, we'd have Marrek and Soontir in a Gunboat, haha!
11 hours ago, CRCL said:Pretty much just this ^
There's not one problem with X-wing at the moment. It's an amalgamation of several years of poor design and mismanagement. Also the obsession with fixing the game by releasing cards (rather than just identifying and nerfing the problem) is utter stupidity. These problems were caused by poor design, what makes FFG think they can design there way out of them?
It also doesn't help that the biggest miniatures game in the world has like 2 dudes sometimes working on it, if they have time between 10 other projects.
You sir deserve a metal for bringing up this game design uber-error that has been posted before to no avail. Thanks!
7 hours ago, Makaze said:Average expected damage against SJ Ghost without being able to mod your 3 dice is 0.15
I feel like people still have this mistaken impression that it's just a big HP sponge that you automatically hit like a Decimator. It's not, with an evade and Fenn alive preventing mods it's roughly equivalent of taking a 3 die modded shot at a focused, 3AGI, autothruster ace (0.14 expected damage...)
This.
So very this. This is a terrible game mechanic, it's harder to hit this thing than a TIE Interceptor or an A-Wing; it's stupid! Big base ships should all be on a damage timer akin to the Decimator, which was done correctly. THIS WAS A F#$%ING BAD DESIGN FFG!!!
FFG, fix the error denoted by @CRCL now, then fix the second error illuminated by @Makaze second.
@clanofwolves starting petition to place Maarek Stele in GUNBOAT and the following TIEs:
Fighter
Interceptor
Bomber
Silencer (because Avenger)
and any others deemed cool enough. TAP? Sure why not. Punisher? Ok I guess. Aggressor? Why would you? But ok whatever. Striker? Could be fun. Reaper? He’s a little too awesome for a shuttle pilot don’t you think. FO/SF? Naw, silencer is enough First Ordernss.
also starting a petition to start petitions being a thing again and starting a petition to preemptively stop all future petitions.
For all the fire and fury in this thread, FFG will come out of the weekend with one very clear message.
"We just held the two biggest X-Wing tournaments of all time. The game is clearly in great shape and we're doing a great job".
Plot twist: they might be right.
Maybe, but I seem to remember ticket sales riding high on the post-FAQ nerfs. Before that I seem to remember that enthusiasm was getting hard to come by.
I think it's safe to say that people, in general 1) like X-Wing TMG 2) also like it more when stale metas are disrupted by erratas/FAQs 3) really, really like tournaments with obtainable loot.
10 hours ago, Biophysical said:Yet Rebel Fenn is almost as good at nullifying attacks as Kylo, but he can do it every turn, doesn't have to get a crit through, and also provides PS11 coordinate, super cheap, with Astromech and Crew to taste. Makes sense.
I never mentioned Rebel Fenn or compared them.
I just really hate Kylo. If Kylo were rebel, we'd here a lot more about how utterly broken he is.
24 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:Maybe, but I seem to remember ticket sales riding high on the post-FAQ nerfs. Before that I seem to remember that enthusiasm was getting hard to come by.
I think it's safe to say that people, in general 1) like X-Wing TMG 2) also like it more when stale metas are disrupted by erratas/FAQs 3) really, really like tournaments with obtainable loot.
Maybe it's a socio=demographic thing as well. Prior to this weekend, the top five attended X-Wing events ever were:
Now, the UK obviously has an incredibly high population density compared to the US, so attendances will naturally be higher due to shorter travelling times/distances, but we're also seeing players from all across Europe and the World travel for these events. There were players from as far afield as Vancouver and Cape Town playing at yesterday's UK Open. I personally played against people from Romania, Portugal, Spain, Poland, France, Italy and Greece at the Euros and Nationals in 2017.
Having been to three of the previous top five events, I'm finding it difficult to reconcile the complaints about "stale metas" with what I've seen. For the vast majority participating in these events seem to be having a fantastic time, and the sense of community amongst the players is really evident.
I'm amazed they even played on the Sunday of Yavin. Didn't they hear that X-Wing died the night before in Chicago?
My best friend flies this exact same list in the mirror match OP and wins repeatedly with it. It's boring as ****. FFG for whatever reason just flat out refuses to nerf Miranda or TLT---they've had countless opportunities--- and I have zero faith the Auzituck reinforce design miscue will see any reasonable adjustment either. A triple Auzituck list kept me from making the cut at my first regionals in Houston. That game was also hands down the most yawn worthy from beginning to end.
I have discovered that Objective play really does counter so many of the meta issues nowadays. Apart from Epic, nothing else in the two years I've been playing feels as much like Star Wars. And therefore, I have alot more fun.
8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:Maybe it's a socio=demographic thing as well. Prior to this weekend, the top five attended X-Wing events ever were:
- UK System Open 2016 - 414
- UK System Open 2017 - 367
- Spain System Open 2017 - 358
- Poland System Open 2018 - 331
- European Championships 2017 - 320
Now, the UK obviously has an incredibly high population density compared to the US, so attendances will naturally be higher due to shorter travelling times/distances, but we're also seeing players from all across Europe and the World travel for these events. There were players from as far afield as Vancouver and Cape Town playing at yesterday's UK Open. I personally played against people from Romania, Portugal, Spain, Poland, France, Italy and Greece at the Euros and Nationals in 2017.
Having been to three of the previous top five events, I'm finding it difficult to reconcile the complaints about "stale metas" with what I've seen. For the vast majority participating in these events seem to be having a fantastic time, and the sense of community amongst the players is really evident.
Yeah, that all helps. But that pdf did more than your average wave in getting people back in and playing locally, before that I know there were a few places having problems and I'd say about half our group were starting to look at other systems to pick up. Then the FAQ drops and suddenly that all flips overnight. Having the tickets go on sale not long afterwards was certainly a heavy factor in the extreme sellout imo.
Incidentally, I did notice a fair dropoff in attendance from our continental friends this time around. I found that slightly surprising considering this one didn't have the Expo overhead. But maybe the ticket issues put off bigger groups travelling.