Just now, sozin said:Was thinking of Vader specifically ... but yeah the autothruster aces are fine.
That makes sense, but thinking on it more - the things that imp aces are scared of are all bringing TLT by happenstance, so while the TLT nerf wouldn't effect that matchup super meaningfully, it would make the list worse in general (and therefore less likely to be a matchup period) which would be a boon to imp aces
On 25/03/2018 at 11:24 AM, sozin said:The approach to the game and how it is played is not the problem. The problem is a small collectIon of terribly designed cards:, TLT, Sabine, Traj Sim, Miranda, R2-D2, Bomblet, Ghost Title, Harpoon Missiles, Guidance Chips, Autothrusters, Adaptability, VI, Reinforce, ships with more than six upgrade slots.
Pretty much just this ^
There's not one problem with X-wing at the moment. It's an amalgamation of several years of poor design and mismanagement. Also the obsession with fixing the game by releasing cards (rather than just identifying and nerfing the problem) is utter stupidity. These problems were caused by poor design, what makes FFG think they can design there way out of them?
It also doesn't help that the biggest miniatures game in the world has like 2 dudes sometimes working on it, if they have time between 10 other projects.
Edited by CRCL58 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:It was them, then it was Nym, but now it is the same problem it was before Jumpmasters removed Rebels from the meta.
Rebels carry more points in the endgame. You don’t need to kill Soontir to win because he won’t kill you. Kill his friends. Win the game.
This. Target sele ction is a whole lot easier with the rebel list.
Edited by hawk32Well now Kylo is in on that game too. He's got an ability that makes him an undesirable early game target, a title that makes him a good end game piece, and a point cost that hangs with the best point fortresses.
13 minutes ago, Sekac said:Well now Kylo is in on that game too. He's got an ability that makes him an undesirable early game target, a title that makes him a good end game piece, and a point cost that hangs with the best point fortresses.
Sure. Ex cept miranda drops infinite bombs, doesn't care about arcs, starts with more health, regens, and has 2 guaranteed evades from low and c3p0
Edit... Oh, and has two harpoons, for the exa ct same cost.
Edited by hawk3212 minutes ago, Sekac said:Well now Kylo is in on that game too. He's got an ability that makes him an undesirable early game target, a title that makes him a good end game piece, and a point cost that hangs with the best point fortresses.
Kylo isn't even close to the metastasized cancer that Miranda is. She basically takes every NPE aspect of this game and crams it into one ultra-space-aids-cancer chassis. Sure, Kylo's ability is a bit NPE, but it's NOTHING like final form Stage IV Miranda. Point-in-case: Kylo is doing *Meh* in the meta and isn't dominating anything, anyqwhere.
Kylo-crew, I think, is a massive NPE. Somewhat balanced by the fact that the lists which can take him aren't, on the whole, that oppressive.
Kylo ship? I've got enough control over that that I don't care.
//
Counting Lowhhrick's evade when comparing the cost of Miranda and Kylo is a bit dodgy. Lowhh's a full 30-points more, at least. Doesn't mean it's not good, but Miranda doesn't get two free evades on her own.
28 minutes ago, hawk32 said:Sure. Ex cept miranda drops infinite bombs, doesn't care about arcs, starts with more health, regens, and has 2 guaranteed evades from low and c3p0
Edit... Oh, and has two harpoons, for the exa ct same cost.
19 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:Kylo isn't even close to the metastasized cancer that Miranda is. She basically takes every NPE aspect of this game and crams it into one ultra-space-aids-cancer chassis. Sure, Kylo's ability is a bit NPE, but it's NOTHING like final form Stage IV Miranda. Point-in-case: Kylo is doing *Meh* in the meta and isn't dominating anything, anyqwhere.
Did I claim, at any point, that Kylo was OP, NPE, or any other negative aspect?
I'm just saying that he is a small base point fortress, which means his win condition is the same as other long fortresses:
Play to time, cost more points.
1 minute ago, Sekac said:
Did I claim, at any point, that Kylo was OP, NPE, or any other negative aspect?
I'm just saying that he is a small base point fortress, which means his win condition is the same as other long fortresses:
Play to time, cost more points.
Sure, except he's the obvious early game target, and you won't get punished for going after him early nearly as hard as you will against the rebel ones.
30 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:Kylo isn't even close to the metastasized cancer that Miranda is. She basically takes every NPE aspect of this game and crams it into one ultra-space-aids-cancer chassis. Sure, Kylo's ability is a bit NPE, but it's NOTHING like final form Stage IV Miranda. Point-in-case: Kylo is doing *Meh* in the meta and isn't dominating anything, anyqwhere.
I don't think Kylo is on the level of Miranda, but I already pointed he is very similar to Miranda in an endgame situation against a lot of ships/lists. In a certain meta he would be a lot like pre-nerf Whisper and we'd be talking about him more.
16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Kylo-crew, I think, is a massive NPE. Somewhat balanced by the fact that the lists which can take him aren't, on the whole, that oppressive..
I actually look at Kylo as a hard counter-card to lists with low ship counts, which, if you look at Wave 5 and a couple after, would have been very useful when 2 ship lists had significant tournament scoring advantages. You're right that he's balanced but I think he doesn't fit easily into lists because of his cost (opportunity, action, and points).
Edited by AlexW7 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:
Some were complaining about broken mechanics while flying the same. This I don't get. If you think it's broken, and it's an NPE for you, and you recognize it's an NPE for your opponent ... why are you playing it? If your fun is winning at all costs, own it: say you're playing something broken and unfun because winning is more important to you than either your or your opponent's enjoyment. But don't pretend to whine about it while simultaneously using it to crush your opponent's soul.
Let's consider a guy who values both winning as well as having fun during the game. When the top tier list are all what he considers NPE, he's faced with 3 bad choices:
A) don't go to tournaments at all. Not fun
B) play a fun list, and face the reality he'll get trounced past a certain point. Not fun.
C) play a meta list and face the reality he is laying a NPE list. Not fun.
Why would he be allowed to complain about the situation only if he chose option A or B?
'I want to win, but I wish I didn't have to play this to win' is a valid point of view IMO.
1 minute ago, LordBlades said:'I want to win, but I wish I didn't have to play this to win' is a valid point of view IMO.
I mean, I fa ced this at Hoth. I knew what the best two lists were (ghost/fenn and 100pt ace), and decided i didn't want to play that. So I chose the top meta list that fit my play style (imps and aces) and had the best results in my year playing the game. I've only been playing a year, and this is my first con so I was just looking to be competitive and have fun. I picked up imp aces up last wednesday, and went 5-1 (lost in cut) and 5-1 in the hyperspace. I had played a bunch of QD before, but never the lambda, and only once Inquisitor. Even playing against npe it was interesting to try and crack that puzzle with ships that I like, and my opponents were almost universally good sports. My fave part of the tournament was playing on an end table early on, and having Duncan wander up and watch a bit... man the pressure to not look like some impostor who ran a list with no clue about what to do...
14 minutes ago, hawk32 said:Sure, except he's the obvious early game target, and you won't get punished for going after him early nearly as hard as you will against the rebel ones.
His ability is considerably worse in the early game rather than the end. If you get PS 0'd early, it has a longer lasting impact.
Also, the more ships on the table, the more likely a crit comes up and triggers ISYTDS. He need to target him early because you can't handle him late. But he's designed specifically to punish you for targeting him early.
14 minutes ago, LordBlades said:Let's consider a guy who values both winning as well as having fun during the game. When the top tier list are all what he considers NPE, he's faced with 3 bad choices:
A) don't go to tournaments at all. Not fun
B) play a fun list, and face the reality he'll get trounced past a certain point. Not fun.
C) play a meta list and face the reality he is laying a NPE list. Not fun.
Why would he be allowed to complain about the situation only if he chose option A or B?
'I want to win, but I wish I didn't have to play this to win' is a valid point of view IMO.
Well, if no one choses C, A & B are non-issues.
But no one is willing to gamble that C is universally true, and so feels they must in fact choose C to be safe.
So, we wind up with TLT Miranda everywhere.
Edited by Darth Meanie1 minute ago, Sekac said:His ability is considerably worse in the early game rather than the end. If you get PS 0'd early, it has a longer lasting impact.
Also, the more ships on the table, the more likely a crit comes up and triggers ISYTDS. He need to target him early because you can't handle him late. But he's designed specifically to punish you for targeting him early.
Sure... he's also a lot easier to catch and delete earlier, and any damage you do early doesn't regen for the late game. Also, getting ps0 early is better, because you can maneuver around it and set up the late game. Getting hit with a sudden ps0 late game is worse (although like you pointed out less likely).
34 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Kylo-crew, I think, is a massive NPE. Somewhat balanced by the fact that the lists which can take him aren't, on the whole, that oppressive.
Yet Rebel Fenn is almost as good at nullifying attacks as Kylo, but he can do it every turn, doesn't have to get a crit through, and also provides PS11 coordinate, super cheap, with Astromech and Crew to taste. Makes sense.
17 minutes ago, LordBlades said:Let's consider a guy who values both winning as well as having fun during the game. When the top tier list are all what he considers NPE, he's faced with 3 bad choices:
A) don't go to tournaments at all. Not fun
B) play a fun list, and face the reality he'll get trounced past a certain point. Not fun.
C) play a meta list and face the reality he is laying a NPE list. Not fun.
Why would he be allowed to complain about the situation only if he chose option A or B?
'I want to win, but I wish I didn't have to play this to win' is a valid point of view IMO.
I fall into category B, though I very nearly went down the category A route for my regional a few weeks ago.
I was very unsure about going since it was further away this year, and I didn't really want to do all that time and money to go 3-3 or worse again just because I brought a non meta/tier 1 list.. Luckily I was spared that tough decision by my wife having to work early Sunday morning so I wasn't able to go since I couldn't do it all in one day plus driving.
1 minute ago, Biophysical said:Yet Rebel Fenn is almost as good at nullifying attacks as Kylo, but he can do it every turn, doesn't have to get a crit through, and also provides PS11 coordinate, super cheap, with Astromech and Crew to taste. Makes sense.
Not to get off topi c, but this is my worry with the u-wing... To be played competitively, it has to be better than the auzituck or the sheathipede... hopefully it isn't...
14 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:Well, if no one choses C, A & B are non-issues.
But no one is willing to gamble that C is universally true, and so feels they must in fact choose C to be safe.
So, we wind up with TLT Miranda everywhere.
Well,unless it's forbidden, some guys will choose C. It's basic human nature.
Edit: there's also some guys who just like Miranda or the Ghost.
Edited by LordBlades
Let's be honest, it seems to me like it is still very possible to make a cut with a lower tier list. Xwing hasn't hit mtg levels where the top list will be 70% of the field... it's more like 15%. Unfortunately in my case I hit 4 100pt aces and a miranda/nym in my first 7 games. I played 12 games on the weekend, and didn't play against imps or ghost/fenn once. Which is unfortunate, because I had practiced the mirror and ghost/fenn the most.
6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:Yet Rebel Fenn is almost as good at nullifying attacks as Kylo
Shooting without mods is almost as good as not shooting at all?
Fenn is awesome, no dispute, but that claim is just insane. Is K-turning and taking an unmodified shot almost as bad as getting arc-dodged?
I would take an unmodified shot over not shooting 100% of the time. And so would you.
1 minute ago, Sekac said:Shooting without mods is almost as good as not shooting at all?
Fenn is awesome, no dispute, but that claim is just insane. Is K-turning and taking an unmodified shot almost as bad as getting arc-dodged?
I would take an unmodified shot over not shooting 100% of the time. And so would you.
In practice however, nowadays unmodified shots are almost as bad as no shots. Let's take the typical Ghost Fenn list. You K-turn and shoot the Ghost. Sensor Jammer turns a hit into a Focus so you need 2 hits on 3 naked dice (above average result) to do damage. If the Ghost also has an Evade token, you need 3/3 hits.
1 hour ago, LordBlades said:In practice however, nowadays unmodified shots are almost as bad as no shots. Let's take the typical Ghost Fenn list. You K-turn and shoot the Ghost. Sensor Jammer turns a hit into a Focus so you need 2 hits on 3 naked dice (above average result) to do damage. If the Ghost also has an Evade token, you need 3/3 hits.
Average expected damage against SJ Ghost without being able to mod your 3 dice is 0.15
I feel like people still have this mistaken impression that it's just a big HP sponge that you automatically hit like a Decimator. It's not, with an evade and Fenn alive preventing mods it's roughly equivalent of taking a 3 die modded shot at a focused, 3AGI, autothruster ace (0.14 expected damage...)
Edited by Makaze1 hour ago, LordBlades said:In practice however, nowadays unmodified shots are almost as bad as no shots. Let's take the typical Ghost Fenn list. You K-turn and shoot the Ghost. Sensor Jammer turns a hit into a Focus so you need 2 hits on 3 naked dice (above average result) to do damage. If the Ghost also has an Evade token, you need 3/3 hits.
That's why you shoot at Fenn first. It is known.
6 minutes ago, Sekac said:That's why you shoot at Fenn first. It is known.
That often works in the Ghost/Fenn player's advantage too. It's difficult to kill Fenn in 1 round , especially in the opening engagement, so that gives the Ghost 2 rounds to shoot at your list unopposed.