9 minutes ago, phild0 said:

If it helps, guys...

Id have been in the final of the "Hoth Open" with an arc dependant Imperial list with A) some better guesses on my part B) a little more variance to make up for wrong guesses C) the final shot of the match finishing off a 1 hull Lowhrick at range 3 or D) 1 more round lol. So, it IS possible to beat those Rebel lists at their own game (winning at time).

Not that I won't look forward to some changes, though. Pretty much all the Rebel lists are hard to overcome in 75 minutes. You have to come up with a game plan to kill that Lowhrick fast, and if it rolls above average evades, you've probably lost more than you've killed and will run out of time.

I had a similar experience this weekend playing imperials, although not quite as successful... I went 10-3 between the open w/ cut and the hyperspace, losing to 3 100pt rebel aces, and beating 2... and given 1 more turn two of those losses are probably wins. I found that the hardest thing to overcome was c3p0 either on low or miranda.

1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

I had a similar experience this weekend playing imperials, although not quite as successful... I went 10-3 between the open w/ cut and the hyperspace, losing to 3 100pt rebel aces, and beating 2... and given 1 more turn two of those losses are probably wins. I found that the hardest thing to overcome was c3p0 either on low or miranda.

Two automatic effective evades, whether in the form of 3P0 + regen in the case of Miranda, 3P0 + evade for Fat Falcon, SJ Ghost w/ Fenn + evade, or Palp + an evade in the case of multiple Imp aces, combined with the maneuverability to prevent taking multiple R1 shots being problematic seems to be a common theme across multiple metas.

20 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

And yet here you are.

Here we all are, running through the same completely futile discussion for the 73rd time.

Will there be balloons and cake for the centennial?

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Here we all are, running through the same completely futile discussion for the 73rd time.

Will there be balloons and cake for the centennial?

Possibly, but I'm sure you'll be the dude in the back everyone avoids complaining he has to be there.

8 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Here we all are, running through the same completely futile discussion for the 73rd time.

Will there be balloons and cake for the centennial?

I'm still genuinely curious about your motivations SoL. I've always enjoyed your blog posts and value your opinion.

TLT is an important part of the metagame.

Miranda with TLT and 3PO have been part of the game for years and haven't really been any more of an annoyance than a couple of dozen other things.

This weekend hosted the biggest and second-biggest x-wing tournaments of all time, which sounds like a good news story. Epsilon Leader won it, btw, and IGs were in the semis.

All anyone wants to talk about is the outcome of a match where both players pursued strategies likely to lead to a stalemate and successfully created a stalemate.

4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

TLT is an important part of the metagame.

Miranda with TLT and 3PO have been part of the game for years and haven't really been any more of an annoyance than a couple of dozen other things.

This weekend hosted the biggest and second-biggest x-wing tournaments of all time, which sounds like a good news story. Epsilon Leader won it, btw, and IGs were in the semis.

All anyone wants to talk about is the outcome of a match where both players pursued strategies likely to lead to a stalemate and successfully created a stalemate.

Sure... try saying that the first time. And somewhat I agree with you, and I think the real problem is the way wins are determined.

32 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

TLT is an important part of the metagame.

Miranda with TLT and 3PO have been part of the game for years and haven't really been any more of an annoyance than a couple of dozen other things.

This weekend hosted the biggest and second-biggest x-wing tournaments of all time, which sounds like a good news story. Epsilon Leader won it, btw, and IGs were in the semis.

All anyone wants to talk about is the outcome of a match where both players pursued strategies likely to lead to a stalemate and successfully created a stalemate.

I believe Jesper Hills made it with Bots? It certainly does show that practice and experience with a list does matter. That said, Epsilon Leader won? Come on. Kylo and QD were obviously the heavy lifters there and, while I didn’t see any of the winner’s games, I’ve regularly seen Kylo take advantage of the tournament structure endgame that Miranda does (acting as a point fortress and refusing engagements due to higher PS and maneuverability).

33 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

TLT is an important part of the metagame.

This helps, it looks like your motivation here is to defend TLT. Can you substantiate this a little? I don't care if its negative or positive, just looking for some analysis or data as to why you believe this to be true. If TLT were to go away right now, what aspects of the metagame do you see being damaged?

4 hours ago, sozin said:

Darth, can you please explain this one to me in more detail? I've just gone through all the turrets and none of them are even close to TLT!

• Autoblaster turret: Miranda won't be able to to regen effectively has her sweet spot is kitting out beyond range 1 and regenning with the double TLT slot.
• Dorsal turret: only range 1-2, and as such hits 55% less surface area as TLT. Miranda's regen function will be substantially reduced.
• Blaster turret: also only range 1-2, so just as bad as Dorsal, and has the penalty of having to pay the focus token.
• Synced turret: same as Blaster and Dorsal.
• Ion Cannon Turret: same as Synced, Blaster and Dorsal.

What am I missing?

That, maybe, when TLTs disappear, other bogeyman, like unhittable Aces return (the other turrets are rather weak and all are range 2 or less). Dancing around with multiple actions, passive mods and amazing dials, while having perfect knowledge of board state. We also probably get a truly amazing Palp carrier in the Reaper. Would'nt be surprised if game state tips over to Imp Aces all over all places again.

Then FFG unfortunately also does dial creep, just look at the TIE shhh dial. As said above, e.g. Silencer Kylo can be a pretty NPE and a good point fortress as well.

Miranda's ability should be primary weapons only and TLT should count crits as blank results. While were at it, the range 1 bonus should only come if your target is in your primary arc period. this helps bring back the old arc only ships and makes Flying better even more important.

59 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I’ve regularly seen Kylo take advantage of the tournament structure endgame that Miranda does (acting as a point fortress and refusing engagements due to higher PS and maneuverability).

This is the main problem of competitive scene. These points fortresses. FFG made it so large ships get half points so they cant fortress/run away with 60pts. Now we 50pt small ships doing the same thing and instead of just having Biggs help them, they now have 3 or 4 different ships, many of which are cheaper than Biggs, that can help these fortresses get to time. Its not even about destroying ships anymore (Fairship rebels for instance). Its just becoming a game of survival for many lists.

I could see Imperial Aces making a strong comeback if TLT is removed. But then the bomb meta would probably rise up to meet it. As the bomb meta rose we might see high shield/high hull Rebel swarms that can handle sustained bombing hunt that.

It is interesting how a lot of this goes back to decisions made early on in the game. 360 turrets led to autothrusters, but autothrusters/Palp were so good that the aces became unhittable, which gave rise to TLT, bombs, and super ordinance. You almost have to go back to 360 turrets and autothrusters first :/

THe problem with large base or heavy small ships with turrets and the ability to arc dodge has always been that they blatantly have too much utility and literally zero hard counters. A whole bunch of new and rebel players worry about arc dodgers having a return. Generally I find they can’t keep arc on a good arc dodger anyway skill wise and second arcdodgers have hard counters in auto damage and bombs. This is a good thing.

The fat turrets have zero weaknesses and zero hard counters. Don’t be so happy with yourself discovering that these are the best ships in the game. It’s exceeeding freaking obvious. And they’re disgusting.

Throw the load of it out. Out with the rascals

6 hours ago, sozin said:

Darth, can you please explain this one to me in more detail? I've just gone through all the turrets and none of them are even close to TLT!

• Autoblaster turret: Miranda won't be able to to regen effectively has her sweet spot is kitting out beyond range 1 and regenning with the double TLT slot.
• Dorsal turret: only range 1-2, and as such hits 55% less surface area as TLT. Miranda's regen function will be substantially reduced.
• Blaster turret: also only range 1-2, so just as bad as Dorsal, and has the penalty of having to pay the focus token.
• Synced turret: same as Blaster and Dorsal.
• Ion Cannon Turret: same as Synced, Blaster and Dorsal.

What am I missing?

Miranda always can fall back on her PWT if an add-on turret comes up short. And really beyond ABT and ICT the other turrets are just weaker PWTs. 4 dice ICT can be valuable for controlling someone off the board, and still can instead use her PWT to regen if no one is in ION range. But does Miranda care about control?

17 minutes ago, sozin said:

It is interesting how a lot of this goes back to decisions made early on in the game. 360 turrets led to autothrusters, but autothrusters/Palp were so good that the aces became unhittable, which gave rise to TLT, bombs, and super ordinance. You almost have to go back to 360 turrets and autothrusters first :/

Not sure I agree with that analysis. Both turrets and autothrusters (even with Palp) were eminently beatable via number of attacks and volume of modified attack dice. One on one I'd agree an autothrusters Soontir or Fat Han had the edge, but as part of a 100 point squad vs another 100 point squad they were beatable so long as you made them the priority target.

TLT definitely WEAKENED autothrusters aces, but autothrusters aces were never a truly dominant archetype (Fat Han himself was only in that position briefly). It's important to note that TLT debuted alongside Miranda, both immediately made a big impact at the top level and have stayed there ever since.

15 minutes ago, sozin said:

I could see Imperial Aces making a strong comeback if TLT is removed. But then the bomb meta would probably rise up to meet it. As the bomb meta rose we might see high shield/high hull Rebel swarms that can handle sustained bombing hunt that.

It is interesting how a lot of this goes back to decisions made early on in the game. 360 turrets led to autothrusters, but autothrusters/Palp were so good that the aces became unhittable, which gave rise to TLT, bombs, and super ordinance. You almost have to go back to 360 turrets and autothrusters first :/

Hence 2.0

But let’s go back even further.

Why is an arc dodger a problem?

-Because initiative doesn’t rotate

-Because the distinction between PS creates too much of a swing in both movement and attack phases

Rotate Initiative and create 3 movement bands. Line pilot, veteran pilot and elite/ace pilot.

Change shooting order so that Pilot Skill doesn’t determine order. Ships are removed after the phase in which they were killed

Phase 1: In arc primary

Phase 2: In arc secondary

Phase 3: Out of arc

Now the swarm cannot be PS killed before they all get to shoot. The turret has to weather the storm before it can shoot out of arc.

I still feel like turrets are pretty stupid. Different dice would work much better, as would different defence dice for the type of ship you are (reinforced, shielded, agile).

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I am hopeful they ban TLT.

1 hour ago, sozin said:

I could see Imperial Aces making a strong comeback if TLT is removed.

That doesn't sound quite right - Imperial aces are one of the things that are the best at hanging with anything with TLT. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by Ace, I'm basically thinking the Soontirs/Inquisitors of the world...

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

That doesn't sound quite right - Imperial aces are one of the things that are the best at hanging with anything with TLT. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by Ace, I'm basically thinking the Soontirs/Inquisitors of the world...

I’m glad someone said this. TLT is not even close to being the reason why Soontir is absent from the meta.

10 minutes ago, Brunas said:

That doesn't sound quite right - Imperial aces are one of the things that are the best at hanging with anything with TLT. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by Ace, I'm basically thinking the Soontirs/Inquisitors of the world...

I agree completely. Maybe it's just because I played a whole weekend with a pair if AGI3 Autothrusters ships, but TLTs were absolutely not a concern, and my ships were using a single Focus for defense. At other events, I've had Fel just be immortal against Ghost TLTs.

I don't think there's a lot holding back aces right now. The biggest issues, I think, are PS10 Nym bomb stuff and massively resilient defensive squad combos.

45 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

Phase 1: In arc primary

Phase 2: In arc secondary

Phase 3: Out of arc

This actually emulates what we have seen in the films, TIE Fighters firing on the Falcon before Han and Luke can fire the turrets.

40 minutes ago, Vargas79 said:

I’m glad someone said this. TLT is not even close to being the reason why Soontir is absent from the meta.

Absolutely. It's all the Advanced SLAMming K-wing bombers.

49 minutes ago, Brunas said:

That doesn't sound quite right - Imperial aces are one of the things that are the best at hanging with anything with TLT. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by Ace, I'm basically thinking the Soontirs/Inquisitors of the world...

Was thinking of Vader specifically ... but yeah the autothruster aces are fine.

2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Absolutely. It's all the Advanced SLAMming K-wing bombers.

It was them, then it was Nym, but now it is the same problem it was before Jumpmasters removed Rebels from the meta.

Rebels carry more points in the endgame. You don’t need to kill Soontir to win because he won’t kill you. Kill his friends. Win the game.